Author Topic: Measuring the Future  (Read 8557 times)

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Online Smokin Joe

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Measuring the Future
« on: November 09, 2016, 03:45:15 PM »
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 06:57:23 PM by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
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And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline guitar4jesus

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2016, 04:28:41 PM »
BFL

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2016, 05:21:34 PM »
@Smokin Joe

Thanks,Joe!
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Offline GrouchoTex

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2016, 06:10:47 PM »
BFL

Offline INVAR

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2016, 06:31:32 PM »
Thanks of that list and commentary Joe.

Given what Trump has been, and is - according to his fruits, statements and interviews, I do not expect much of that list to be accomplished or even attempted outside of lip service and perhaps some more kabuki theater.

I am immune from being disappointed in any failure of those things he said he would do from ever coming to fruition because I never believed he was serious about doing any of those things.   And, some of the things he said he intended to do - the Executive has no power to do or interfere with.

Low or non-existent expectations in Trump's leadership does provide me with the opportunity to be surprised in the positive, should he actually attempt to make good on those things beyond the rhetoric to placate the crowds and get votes, but I am not expecting much if any fulfillment at all.  i.e.:, Trump's stated plan to "fix" Obamacare is to do exactly what the Democrats intended Obamacare to achieve in the first place: to impose Single Payer and expand the mandate that every person in the country must be 'covered'.

What I am going to be most watchful of - is the circumvention, the sidestepping, or the wholesale ignoring of the Rule of Law and the Constitution that both parties, the Courts and the Obama regime have made SOP.   I think there is real danger in Trump following lawless precedents set by Obama, given his only experience is acting as a sole dictator (which all CEOs of your own corporation are).   This Republic is not a corporation, and the Constitution does not provide for Trump to run the country like his own private business.  He has imposed limits, and it is already disconcerting to read people who claim to be Conservative, opining and hoping that Trump use his own pen and phone as Obama has.

 I will be very sensitive to moves, statements and actions which will further entrench the Executive into the dictatorship the GOP leadership under Boehner, McConnell, Pelosi and Reid have already enabled and established.  I have no faith that Trump is going to slow, stop or reverse what we have been fundamentally transformed into already - but that said - I am better positioned to be pleasantly surprised should that discernment prove wrong.

But we are dealing with government - and chances are - my discernment about that is more correct than not.

We shall see.


Online corbe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2016, 06:44:52 PM »
   Thanks for Posting this, @Smokin Joe

No government in the 6,000 years of modern mankind history has led its people into anything but the history books with a simple lesson, don't let this happen to you.

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 06:59:44 PM »
Thanks of that list and commentary Joe.

Given what Trump has been, and is - according to his fruits, statements and interviews, I do not expect much of that list to be accomplished or even attempted outside of lip service and perhaps some more kabuki theater.

I am immune from being disappointed in any failure of those things he said he would do from ever coming to fruition because I never believed he was serious about doing any of those things.   And, some of the things he said he intended to do - the Executive has no power to do or interfere with.

Low or non-existent expectations in Trump's leadership does provide me with the opportunity to be surprised in the positive, should he actually attempt to make good on those things beyond the rhetoric to placate the crowds and get votes, but I am not expecting much if any fulfillment at all.  i.e.:, Trump's stated plan to "fix" Obamacare is to do exactly what the Democrats intended Obamacare to achieve in the first place: to impose Single Payer and expand the mandate that every person in the country must be 'covered'.

What I am going to be most watchful of - is the circumvention, the sidestepping, or the wholesale ignoring of the Rule of Law and the Constitution that both parties, the Courts and the Obama regime have made SOP.   I think there is real danger in Trump following lawless precedents set by Obama, given his only experience is acting as a sole dictator (which all CEOs of your own corporation are).   This Republic is not a corporation, and the Constitution does not provide for Trump to run the country like his own private business.  He has imposed limits, and it is already disconcerting to read people who claim to be Conservative, opining and hoping that Trump use his own pen and phone as Obama has.

 I will be very sensitive to moves, statements and actions which will further entrench the Executive into the dictatorship the GOP leadership under Boehner, McConnell, Pelosi and Reid have already enabled and established.  I have no faith that Trump is going to slow, stop or reverse what we have been fundamentally transformed into already - but that said - I am better positioned to be pleasantly surprised should that discernment prove wrong.

But we are dealing with government - and chances are - my discernment about that is more correct than not.

We shall see.
You are welcome. I am adopting a wait and see attitude, too.
I think that if he does try to fulfill those promises he is Constitutionally Authorized to do, the GOPe Congress will try to sabotage that.  After all, they have been living fat off the Obama Regime, and their Conservative ratings have been in the toilet for many of them.
It is possible he will try to do none of those things.
And it is possible in that he may, out of ego or whatever motivation, try to do all of them and actually accomplish something.

Like stud poker, you play the cards you have. Folding is not an option at this point.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2016, 07:22:40 PM »
   Thanks for Posting this, @Smokin Joe


You're welcome! Thanks for the Ethanol Lobby graphic!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2016, 07:29:31 PM »
One of the main problems in this country that I can see, based on my own experiences, is the number  of improprieties by people in many branches of government and private industry. They can group up and say "Damn right", to many of the things Trump promised, but when it comes down to it in their private affairs, there are going to be things they that don't want to be changed. Talking out of both sides of their neck. The more of those types who can wield some influence in D.C. are going to be the sticking points to any real change.

The Republican Congress, both Senate, and House, no longer will be able to give us the rigamarole of "we are
trying". I plan on holding my reps feet to the fire.

I would like to see more carbon based energy use. Reopen perfectly good plants.

I would like to see some changes in "affordable" health because I cannot afford it since my employer based insurance ended Jan. 1, 2015.

I would like to see undocumented people in this country brought to task under existing immigration laws. As an aside our neighbors next door are Hispanic. The young woman was in tears this morning because she is afraid Trump will send them back to Mexico. They don't understand. They are legal documented immigrants working towards citizenship. They have taken English classes. He isn't so good at speaking English (typical man), but she can. My wife told them they don't have to worry. And they shouldn't.

And I want the federal government to return all federally held lands returned to the states with maybe the exception of national parks.

I want to see more trees die, as humanely as possible, of course. With the managed care of both industry and state government.

Get rid of restrictive ROE''s. Period.

But what I mainly want to see is for Trump to start with ONE thing. (Pick any one on his list). And then move on to the next. Using a scattergun tactic will cause to much harm and confusion, IMO.


Offline sneakypete

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2016, 08:10:53 PM »


And I want the federal government to return all federally held lands returned to the states with maybe the exception of national parks.



@bigheadfred

No can do. The US military needs and uses huge tracts of public land to train on,and if you stop this Americans WILL die in combat that wouldn't have died if they had been able to train properly.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 08:14:19 PM »
@bigheadfred

No can do. The US military needs and uses huge tracts of public land to train on,and if you stop this Americans WILL die in combat that wouldn't have died if they had been able to train properly.

I think a good chunk of the Federal 'refuges", Heritage sites and federal park designations intended to punish flyover country or secure big payola for Democrat investors linked to China should indeed be returned back to the States

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2016, 08:15:46 PM »
@bigheadfred

No can do. The US military needs and uses huge tracts of public land to train on,and if you stop this Americans WILL die in combat that wouldn't have died if they had been able to train properly.

How does that stop them if those lands are state controlled?

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2016, 08:19:26 PM »
How does that stop them if those lands are state controlled?
@bigheadfred

They aren't state-controlled for the most part. They are owned by the federal government.  I have no doubt sometimes some state land is used,but with permission by the state. Maybe a fee is even paid. I have no idea.

I also know for a fact that in SOME cases private land is also used,and the land owner is paid for the use of his land.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2016, 08:20:20 PM »
I think a good chunk of the Federal 'refuges", Heritage sites and federal park designations intended to punish flyover country or secure big payola for Democrat investors linked to China should indeed be returned back to the States

@INVAR

I know nothing about those.
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In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2016, 08:24:35 PM »
I think a good chunk of the Federal 'refuges", Heritage sites and federal park designations intended to punish flyover country or secure big payola for Democrat investors linked to China should indeed be returned back to the States

Exactly. I probably should have qualified my statement a bit. I had in mind well-established areas like Yellowstone and Yosemite (et al). 

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2016, 08:30:23 PM »
@bigheadfred

They aren't state-controlled for the most part. They are owned by the federal government.  I have no doubt sometimes some state land is used,but with permission by the state. Maybe a fee is even paid. I have no idea.

I also know for a fact that in SOME cases private land is also used,and the land owner is paid for the use of his land.

I may be wrong, but I don't see the states objecting to continued use of areas already in use by the military for training exercises. IMO, the federal government has no business owning any land in this country other than D.C. They can have that. In fact, I insist. I think we could even change the name to The Federal Reservation. And anytime they go off the Rez, they get scalped.

Offline sneakypete

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2016, 08:45:09 PM »
I may be wrong, but I don't see the states objecting to continued use of areas already in use by the military for training exercises. IMO, the federal government has no business owning any land in this country other than D.C. They can have that. In fact, I insist. I think we could even change the name to The Federal Reservation. And anytime they go off the Rez, they get scalped.

@bigheadfred

Give me a break! Do you really think Yellowstone would still exist today without the federal dollars pouring in to the state for rental and fees,and by extension,supporting the tourist trade?

Somebody like Ted Turner would own it,and when he dies his family would sell it to developers.

I'm not even sure any states would accept the land back if you offered it to them. They are all in rural states with low populations and a low tax base. The federal money those parks bring in is VERY welcome,and their budgets would be in trouble without it.

I personally know of a big chunk of oceanfront property that was a federal wildlife refuge for over 50 years before being privatized in the 70's or 80's. I have relatives that live near there,and remember it well. Go there now and the most scenery you will see are rental property mansions with 6 or more bedrooms on pilings so the people in them have a ocean view. Goober Gore owns a mansion there,or did back when he was the VP. Think he paid something like a half-mil for it back then.

Instead of wheel tracks through the sand,they now have paved roads and shopping centers. Someone told me a while back that the local government has now banned commercial fishermen from setting their nets off the beach and pulling them in to fish them over because the tourists didn't like it. Some of these people come from families that have been fishing those beaches since per-Revolutionary times. Seriously.

And they are one strong hurricane away from the state and federal government having to cough up  maybe even a hundred million dollars in disaster-relief to repair the mansions of wealthy northerners who go there to vacation and rent the properties for thousands  a week during the summer months.

I don't live there so I don't have any voice in what goes on,but it seems to me the nation was better off when it was a game preserve.
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In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2016, 08:51:08 PM »
@bigheadfred

No can do. The US military needs and uses huge tracts of public land to train on,and if you stop this Americans WILL die in combat that wouldn't have died if they had been able to train properly.
@bigheadfred @sneakypete

Pete has a point, and Military reservations are Constitutionally Authorized. National Parks, Monuments, and Wilderness areas are not. I would concede National Parks, but this business of every president sequestering another million or more acres for a 'national monument' is insanity. Wilderness areas, the same thing, frankly.

Part of that problem is the wad of rules that come with those designations, not just for those who lived in them, but by 'buffer zones' created around them, land in private hands controlled by government edict.

While a peculiar form of fascism, it is one I know of. My relatives have 22 acres of 180 year old red oak timber, ripe for harvest, planted by an ancestor, that cannot be cut by government decree because it is in a 'buffer zone' to a 'critical area' of a Scenic River. Nine Federal and State permits to cut one tree. Each tree. Insanity. The land has been in the family since the 1640s, and is still productive.

Tear off a chunk here or there to preserve some ecosystem, but better yet, let the States decide what proportion is to be Park land or not. Shutting down huge tracts to access amounts to an unfunded mandate by demanding resources not be harvested or produced, but roads, firefighting, and necessary rescue services have to be maintained, sans tax base. More often than not, people on that land will take better care of it than any federal agency ever will or will know how to.

Considering the Federal Government owns half of the land west of the Mississippi River, that's too much, and the tax money from those resources being tapped, developed, manufacturing and the jobs that would create would be a boon, not only to individual communities ravaged by spotted owls and the like, but the country as a whole.

Animals are adaptable, and it's time to get past the snowflake version of Bambi and down to the reality of critters dining on your shrubbery and taking the front out of your car by just standing around.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2016, 08:58:01 PM »
@bigheadfred

Give me a break! Do you really think Yellowstone would still exist today without the federal dollars pouring in to the state for rental and fees,and by extension,supporting the tourist trade?

Somebody like Ted Turner would own it,and when he dies his family would sell it to developers.

I'm not even sure any states would accept the land back if you offered it to them. They are all in rural states with low populations and a low tax base. The federal money those parks bring in is VERY welcome,and their budgets would be in trouble without it.

Quote
I personally know of a big chunk of oceanfront property that was a federal wildlife refuge for over 50 years before being privatized in the 70's or 80's.
I have relatives that live near there,and remember it well. Go there now and the most scenery you will see are rental property mansions with 6 or more bedrooms on pilings so the people in them have a ocean view. Goober Gore owns a mansion there,or did back when he was the VP. Think he paid something like a half-mil for it back then.

Instead of wheel tracks through the sand,they now have paved roads and shopping centers. Someone told me a while back that the local government has now banned commercial fishermen from setting their nets off the beach and pulling them in to fish them over because the tourists didn't like it. Some of these people come from families that have been fishing those beaches since per-Revolutionary times. Seriously.

And they are one strong hurricane away from the state and federal government having to cough up  maybe even a hundred million dollars in disaster-relief to repair the mansions of wealthy northerners who go there to vacation and rent the properties for thousands  a week during the summer months.

I don't live there so I don't have any voice in what goes on,but it seems to me the nation was better off when it was a game preserve.

How do we know how the states would manage those lands if they can't even try?  And it sounds like that oceanfront property went to exactly the type of problem @INVAR was referring to. Favoritism. No input from the locals/state. Some damn fed got a nice chunk of change to "privatize" it.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2016, 09:08:47 PM »
I have relatives that live near there,and remember it well. Go there now and the most scenery you will see are rental property mansions with 6 or more bedrooms on pilings so the people in them have a ocean view. Goober Gore owns a mansion there,or did back when he was the VP. Think he paid something like a half-mil for it back then.

Instead of wheel tracks through the sand,they now have paved roads and shopping centers. Someone told me a while back that the local government has now banned commercial fishermen from setting their nets off the beach and pulling them in to fish them over because the tourists didn't like it. Some of these people come from families that have been fishing those beaches since per-Revolutionary times. Seriously.

And they are one strong hurricane away from the state and federal government having to cough up  maybe even a hundred million dollars in disaster-relief to repair the mansions of wealthy northerners who go there to vacation and rent the properties for thousands  a week during the summer months.

I don't live there so I don't have any voice in what goes on,but it seems to me the nation was better off when it was a game preserve.


How do we know how the states would manage those lands if they can't even try?  And it sounds like that oceanfront property went to exactly the type of problem @INVAR was referring to. Favoritism. No input from the locals/state. Some damn fed got a nice chunk of change to "privatize" it.
Actually, out this way, I'd like to see it opened up to homesteading again.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2016, 09:12:36 PM »
@bigheadfred @sneakypete

Pete has a point, and Military reservations are Constitutionally Authorized. National Parks, Monuments, and Wilderness areas are not. I would concede National Parks, but this business of every president sequestering another million or more acres for a 'national monument' is insanity. Wilderness areas, the same thing, frankly.

Part of that problem is the wad of rules that come with those designations, not just for those who lived in them, but by 'buffer zones' created around them, land in private hands controlled by government edict.

While a peculiar form of fascism, it is one I know of. My relatives have 22 acres of 180 year old red oak timber, ripe for harvest, planted by an ancestor, that cannot be cut by government decree because it is in a 'buffer zone' to a 'critical area' of a Scenic River. Nine Federal and State permits to cut one tree. Each tree. Insanity. The land has been in the family since the 1640s, and is still productive.

Tear off a chunk here or there to preserve some ecosystem, but better yet, let the States decide what proportion is to be Park land or not. Shutting down huge tracts to access amounts to an unfunded mandate by demanding resources not be harvested or produced, but roads, firefighting, and necessary rescue services have to be maintained, sans tax base. More often than not, people on that land will take better care of it than any federal agency ever will or will know how to.

Considering the Federal Government owns half of the land west of the Mississippi River, that's too much, and the tax money from those resources being tapped, developed, manufacturing and the jobs that would create would be a boon, not only to individual communities ravaged by spotted owls and the like, but the country as a whole.

Animals are adaptable, and it's time to get past the snowflake version of Bambi and down to the reality of critters dining on your shrubbery and taking the front out of your car by just standing around.
@sneakypete


This is a PDF of Department of defense land.  https://nationalmap.gov/small_scale/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/DOD_1.pdf In blue. If it is Department of Defense we are talking about. Again, why do either of you think the states would object to military use of land for training exercises? I have no objection to federally held military reserves. When your horse craps and one of those apples rolls onto fed ground on their side of YOUR fence and some fed envirowhacko tells you you need to clean that up---enough is enough.

There are too many departments "managing" these lands (cumulatively), too.

Offline INVAR

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2016, 09:16:02 PM »

Offline roamer_1

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2016, 09:27:28 PM »
Give me a break! Do you really think Yellowstone would still exist today without the federal dollars pouring in to the state for rental and fees,and by extension,supporting the tourist trade?


@sneakypete

You ain't got a leg to stand on. The fed gov is the largest land owner in every state in the west. We don't need em all up in our business. Gating everything off like we ain't got a right.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 09:29:29 PM by roamer_1 »

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2016, 09:48:12 PM »
@sneakypete


This is a PDF of Department of defense land.  https://nationalmap.gov/small_scale/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/DOD_1.pdf In blue. If it is Department of Defense we are talking about. Again, why do either of you think the states would object to military use of land for training exercises? I have no objection to federally held military reserves. When your horse craps and one of those apples rolls onto fed ground on their side of YOUR fence and some fed envirowhacko tells you you need to clean that up---enough is enough.

There are too many departments "managing" these lands (cumulatively), too.
It isn't the DOD lands. Those are, again, Constitutionally authorized. It is the National Grasslands, National Forests, BLM land, 'national monuments', Wilderness areas, and a host of other designations which remove land from private concerns and reduce it to more park area overseen by people who will fine you $15K for taking a leak on the ground in the middle of nowhere. Management includes the BLM (Bureau of Land Management), the USFWS, National Park Service, and a host of others.

BTW, on that map, red are Indian Reservations, light green are National Forest/Grasslands, dark green National Parks, and DOD lands are in blue. (areas smaller  than 23,000 acres are omitted because of map scale. I'm not sure about the other colors and designations, those are just the ones I can identify offhand. https://nationalmap.gov/small_scale/printable/images/pdf/fedlands/DOD_1.pdf
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 09:57:07 PM by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: Measuring the Future
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2016, 07:36:16 AM »
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 07:38:14 AM by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression
And I looked, and rose up, and said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, Be not ye afraid of them: remember the Lord, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses. Nehemiah 4:14 (KJV)

About the only "Big" Liberals don't revile is "Big Government"


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