“Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.

[dfwgator]

I look at it this way.  Who is going to have the press on their side and cover for their crimes?  Clearly, the answer is Hillary.   Trump won't be able to get away with squat.

[Smokin Joe]

I am no fanatic, sir.   I am saddened by the choice we face.   I do not want to choose between two evils,  and wish I didn't live in a swing state so I could have the luxury of casting a vote for a man I believe in, in a year where the two major parties offer a choice between a new Nixon or a new Mussolini.   

I feel uncomfortable doing what Sink did by voting for a fine, honest, uncorruptable individual like Evan McMullin.  I wish I could do just that and sleep soundly.  But here in Pennsylvania,  which could decide the whole enchilada?   Is it a cop-out to remain neutral?    This is a decision that is tearing at me.  And you label me a "fanatic".

You have no idea the pain this election is causing good folks,  in cities and towns all across this land.   

We're just "fanatics" because we won't change our mind and think like he wants us to, even though he won't change his. 

[LateForLunch]

We're just "fanatics" because we won't change our mind and think like he wants us to, even though he won't change his. 

Whenever one of you lovely people would like to propose something besides asserting that you can tell the future (saying that there is no doubt that Trump will be as bad or worse president than Hill-O-Lies - I believe only that there is no doubt IN ANY OF YOUR MINDS) or that there is some substantive objective evidence that Donald Trump is clinically INSANE (rolls eyes), I might be willing to respond. But all that happens is I hear restatements of those silly ideas repeated more and more-emphatically accompanied of course by harsh invective and crude insults. If THAT is what you want to call a substantive argument in favor of your position, then no. I decline. 

[Jazzhead]

Whenever one of you lovely people would like to propose something besides asserting that you can tell the future (saying that there is no doubt that Trump will be as bad or worse president than Hill-O-Lies - I believe only that there is no doubt IN ANY OF YOUR MINDS) or that there is some substantive objective evidence that Donald Trump is clinically INSANE (rolls eyes), I might be willing to respond. But all that happens is I hear restatements of those silly ideas repeated more and more-emphatically accompanied of course by harsh invective and crude insults. If THAT is what you want to call a substantive argument in favor of your position, then no. I decline.

I am not interested in changing your position, LFL.  You will vote your conscience, and I will mine.   But how the hell do you choose between Too Corrupt and Too Crazy?   Those are abominable options.   

[Smokin Joe]

Whenever one of you lovely people would like to propose something besides asserting that you can tell the future (saying that there is no doubt that Trump will be as bad or worse president than Hill-O-Lies - I believe only that there is no doubt IN ANY OF YOUR MINDS) or that there is some substantive objective evidence that Donald Trump is clinically INSANE (rolls eyes), I might be willing to respond. But all that happens is I hear restatements of those silly ideas repeated more and more-emphatically accompanied of course by harsh invective and crude insults. If THAT is what you want to call a substantive argument in favor of your position, then no. I decline.

My point is that your mind is made up,, too. You have not listened to argument, nor have you been able to adequately refute it. Your beliefs are based, not on fact but belief. Your position is immutable also. So, if we are fanatics, well, welcome to the club.

[aligncare]

I'm one of these oddballs around here who thinks that Mr. Trump is neither loco, nor a groper, nor a liberal -- I'll give you that he does have small hands though, and that sometimes it seems that English is his second language.

But, to his the detractors, however, I would say this. Donald Trump's first project in the rough and tumble world of New York City real estate was the Jacob Javits Center, one of the largest convention centers in the nation.  Mr. Trump was around 25 when he first began planning to do a major project in Manhattan – turned out that first major project was the Jacob Javits convention center. His father had stayed out of Manhattan and built subdivisions primarily in Queens. But Donald Trump had bigger plans.

That's it. I just wanted to say this to you folks so that perhaps you might think about your accomplishments at age 25, or perhaps the billions of dollars you made, and lost in a national economic collapse – and made over again, or the skyscrapers you've built around the world and the thousands of jobs you've created.

But, lets not go there okay? Because as many of you keep saying and apparently keep believing: Donald Trump is insane.

Oh, one other point in regards to my defense of Donald Trump: History is prologue. Just look what he's accomplished in politics. Demolished the Bushes in the primary and is poised to vanquish – FINALLY! – the Clinton crime family. I'd say that's not too bad for a novice politician.

[INVAR]

I have given up trying to convince fanatics of anything. Even of the fact that they are fanatics which most deny. A fanatic BTW, is someone who has no interest in considering substantive arguments in opposition to their own view. That would be you.

That is the SAME stupid tactic we hear verbatim from the Leftist Elitist Statists who get all verklempt just like you do that people will 'cling to their guns and religion' while refusing to accept what is best for them.  Fanatics who will not accept bullshite arguments in favor of things like homo marriage, Statist Healthcare, taxing the rich and the entire panoply of the Leftist agenda that we reject.  Like you, they resort to calling us fanatics, homophobes, Islamophobes, racists, unthinking, 'not serious',  etc.

Just like you demonstrate.

You are the hallmark of Elistist thought and application.  A classic Alinskyite projectionist.

And for the record - I am PROUD to be an anti-Trump fanatic.

What do you intend to do about it?

Refuse to 'enter a substantive debate' I gather.

We're so hurt that you think us too savage and entrenched in our principles that you cannot move us from them.

[Rivergirl]

I am an unrepentant NEVER EVER EVER TRUMP
Already voted absentee, and am proud of my vote..

[massadvj]

I'm one of these oddballs around here who thinks that Mr. Trump is neither loco, nor a groper, nor a liberal -- I'll give you that he does have small hands though, and that sometimes it seems that English is his second language.

But, to his the detractors, however, I would say this. Donald Trump's first project in the rough and tumble world of New York City real estate was the Jacob Javits Center, one of the largest convention centers in the nation.  Mr. Trump was around 25 when he first began planning to do a major project in Manhattan – turned out that first major project was the Jacob Javits convention center. His father had stayed out of Manhattan and built subdivisions primarily in Queens. But Donald Trump had bigger plans.

That's it. I just wanted to say this to you folks so that perhaps you might think about your accomplishments at age 25, or perhaps the billions of dollars you made, and lost in a national economic collapse – and made over again, or the skyscrapers you've built around the world and the thousands of jobs you've created.

But, lets not go there okay? Because as many of you keep saying and apparently keep believing: Donald Trump is insane.

Oh, one other point in regards to my defense of Donald Trump: History is prologue. Just look what he's accomplished in politics. Demolished the Bushes in the primary and is poised to vanquish – FINALLY! – the Clinton crime family. I'd say that's not too bad for a novice politician.

I happen to think the whole world is insane.  Politicians and strongly ambitious people tend to be more insane than most.  If insanity were to exclude someone from political office, I dare say no one would run and we would have to force people to do it.

The whole idea behind American freedom and the constitution is to limit government power so that the insanity does not infect the greater fabric of the culture.  Unfortunately, we have so usurped it that the experiment can now be regarded as a failure.  I think this election is going to affirm that a slight majority of Americans actually prefer a rigged system, which is socialist democracy in action.

The best we poor voters can hope for is to pick our particular favored brand of insanity.  I fear after tomorrow even that authority will have been taken from us by the tyranny of the majority.

[jpsb]

I am an unrepentant NEVER EVER EVER TRUMP
Already voted absentee, and am proud of my vote..

Hillary appreciates your support.

[Smokin Joe]

Hillary appreciates your support.

There you go again.

[INVAR]

Hillary appreciates your support.

This again eh?

Fine.

What do you intend to do about it punk?

[Bigun]

Hillary appreciates your support.

When Trump loses he will be able to thank supporters like you!  With that kind of support you don't need any enemies!

[jpsb]

This again eh?

Fine.

What do you intend to do about it punk?

I intend to fight you and all others that would hand the country over to the Marxist globalist to my last breath punk.  Bring it punk.

[LateForLunch]

That is the SAME stupid tactic we hear verbatim from the Leftist Elitist Statists who get all verklempt just like you do that people will 'cling to their guns and religion' while refusing to accept what is best for them.  Fanatics who will not accept bullshite arguments in favor of things like homo marriage, Statist Healthcare, taxing the rich and the entire panoply of the Leftist agenda that we reject.  Like you, they resort to calling us fanatics, homophobes, Islamophobes, racists, unthinking, 'not serious',  etc.

Just like you demonstrate.

You are the hallmark of Elistist thought and application.  A classic Alinskyite projectionist.

And for the record - I am PROUD to be an anti-Trump fanatic.

What do you intend to do about it?

Refuse to 'enter a substantive debate' I gather.

We're so hurt that you think us too savage and entrenched in our principles that you cannot move us from them.

You sound really, really angry Invar which is strange because my tone was very civil and contained no anger - only my opinions of what I believed the facts to be. So it sounds to me like I hit a nerve 'cause why else so angry!?! I would venture to propose that I am not the one your post is aimed at - it seems strongly to me that are attempting to re-convince yourself because my post may have triggered some self doubt (though that was not my intention in stating what are to me obvious facts).  I understand that you disagree.

I would be the most astonished person in the world if a single one of the most passionate anti-Trumpsters on this forum changed their opinion now.Not even if I brought an overwhelming argument that was iron-clad would any of you recognize it. To a large degree WE SEE WHAT WE DESIRE TO SEE. So I refuse your invitation. Convince yourself of all of that stuff if you like, but leave me out of it. I will not enable that sort of indulgence in travels to the outer solar system of morbid rumination.

[INVAR]

I intend to fight you and all others that would hand the country over to the Marxist globalist to my last breath punk. 

I'll be waiting for you to make that last stupid mistake.

[catfish1957]

I intend to fight you and all others that would hand the country over to the Marxist globalist to my last breath punk.  Bring it punk.

You do realize that both major candidates meet your criteria?

The chance to vote for a small government, constitution  protecting conservative candidate went away months ago?

[Mod1]

@jpsb !
@INVAR !

KNOCK IT OFF WITH THE THREATS! 

You both know better than this!

[LateForLunch]

@jpsb !
@INVAR !

KNOCK IT OFF WITH THE THREATS! 

You both know better than this!

I understand both of their anger and I agree that it's not necessary to be governed by anger. It makes an excellent servant when it can be harnessed and applied to positive purpose, but a very poor master even under the best of circumstances.

Invar may be intensely frustrated because he find no amelioration to his central concerns in voting this year. I would suggest that maybe narrowing one's options tends to aggravate that sense of desperate frustration. Maybe admitting the possibility that Trump might not be as catastrophically bad as Hill-O-Lies would surely be might ease some of the anxiety.

JPSB may be feeling an equal measure of frustrated rage for different reasons, in that the anti-Trumpsters have realized the absolute best hopes of the democrats and the absolute worst fears of the Trump supporters in taking what appears to be an unshakably strident stance against any consideration of accepting Trump as a viable alternative to Hill-O-Lies, even against what appears to he, I and others, strong evidence to support the possibility that he might be just that.

We are all feeling stressed and vulnerable because none of us like to feel powerless - and that is the only thing both the anti-Trumpsters and the pro-Trump people have in common and almost overwhelming feeling of, "My God, HOW ON EARTH DID WE GET HERE TO THIS POINT!?!"

For myself, I am posting another thread titled, What I will do if Hill-O-Lies wins" because I have to find some intellectual platform from which to operate in that eventuality. I have lived most of my life with the philosophy "Hope for the best and plan for the worst".

[Jazzhead]

I intend to fight you and all others that would hand the country over to the Marxist globalist to my last breath punk.  Bring it punk.

No one here wants to "hand the country over to the Marxist globalists".   This is an extraordinarily difficult choice being faced by many of us.   Cats like aligncare are fortunate - they truly believe in Trump's abilities and bona fides.  The rest of us have been seeing and hearing his temperament on display for almost two years now, and are genuinely alarmed.

It's not easy to vote against one's own interests and long-time party loyalties.   I wish Trump had decided once he'd secured the nomination to reach out to those who had opposed him and began acting like a statesman.   But the petulant child never changed.   The vendettas,  the fueds,  the narcissistic and erratic behavior have continued apace,  and he seems unwilling or unable to listen to counsel or control his worst impulses.   

Clinton says he's unfit to have his hands on the nuclear codes.  Well,  WHAT SAY YOU?    I've been waiting for Trump for months to grow up, and assure me he's ready for the awesome responsibility he seeks.   But he won't change.  Maybe he can't change.  And CLINTON'S EXISTENTIAL CHARGE GOES UNANSWERED,  both by Trump and by Trump's supporters. 

And Election Day is tomorrow, and the time for showing growth and maturity is up.   And so, with a heavy heart,  I've got to do what I've got to do.     

[massadvj]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPN3Fv2aJhE

[LateForLunch]

Clinton says he's unfit to have his hands on the nuclear codes.  Well,  WHAT SAY YOU?       

Verbal behavior is not overt behavior. That is what I say. One does not become a multi-billionaire by being overly impulsive or capricious with their overt behavior. He may be verbally loose and undisciplined but that may be part of his overall approach to relating to the world. Not being a billionaire, I don't know much about the interpersonal dynamics of that role.

Having Hill-O-Lies, with all of her stipulated personality problems (one of which is called her husband) and all of the information we have gotten from reliable sources such as Dick Morris, et al. From my POV there is absolutely no possible way that I would trust her to administrate the role of commander-in-chief of the military with responsibility or ethical temperament.

Frankly, the fact that some people believe that there is significant evidence that Trump is in any way a significantly greater risk as CIC of the military than Hill-O-Lies is astonishing to me. Subtract Trump's verbal faux pas' and locker room crudeness and you are left with what is mostly a record of populism and at least passably responsible management.

[Smokin Joe]

Verbal behavior is not overt behavior. That is what I say. One does not become a multi-billionaire by being overly impulsive or capricious with their overt behavior. He may be verbally loose and undisciplined but that may be part of his overall approach to relating to the world. Not being a billionaire, I don't know much about the interpersonal dynamics of that role.

Having Hill-O-Lies, with all of her stipulated personality problems (one of which is called her husband) and all of the information we have gotten from reliable sources such as Dick Morris, et al. From my POV there is absolutely no possible way that I would trust her to administrate the role of commander-in-chief of the military with responsibility or ethical temperament.

Frankly, the fact that some people believe that there is significant evidence that Trump is in any way a significantly greater risk as CIC of the military than Hill-O-Lies is astonishing to me. Subtract Trump's verbal faux pas' and locker room crudeness and you are left with what is mostly a record of populism and at least passably responsible management.

"Verbal behaviour is not overt behaviour?" Horse manure. Threaten a cop some time. See how that works out.

Trump has already demonstrated he will launch a full scale attack against someone before he finds out the facts, and when the facts show he hit the wrong target, he lies about that and doubles down. The behaviour is there for all to see. That is a serious character defect, especially when weapons, the lives of our troops and even our citizenry are involved.

As for money, apparently one becomes a multibillionaire by screwing contractors who worked for you who are too small to fight back, and when the poor bastards finally settle for a fraction of what they were owed, making them sign an NDI that lets you sue them if they break it so the word doesn't get out and you can go screw some more contractors.

Hell, If I didn't pay my bills, I'd be filthy rich, too. Filthy being the operative term.

And a significant proportion of the Republican voters follow this man because they believe what he says, and they don't have it in writing, which would mean nothing if they did.
John 11:35

[Jazzhead]

Look at the way he's run his campaign,  LFL.  He can't stay on message,  he's constantly changing advisors,  he's undisciplined, he responds to the bait laid by his opponents,  he indulges in petty feuds, he shorts his creditors.   

Tell me you want someone like this sort as this nation's President?!

I acknowledge Trump's success and his business acumen.   I acknowledge he's found a populist message that resonates.  I respect the suffering of Trump's base in the face of a pitiless global economy.    Whatever you may think of the message,  it needs a new messenger

Sorry,  LFL,  and with no hard feelings  -  Trump is too unstable to be President.   

[jpsb]

Sorry,  LFL,  and with no hard feelings  -  Trump is too unstable to be President.

@Jazzhead

I look at his family, his children, his businesses and I do not see unstable at all. I see great success.