Author Topic: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.  (Read 16385 times)

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Offline massadvj

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“Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« on: November 03, 2016, 01:46:02 pm »
“Loco” or “Corrupto?”  The Case for Loco.
Victor J. Massad

This whole Hillary Clinton e-mail fiasco reminds me of that great movie The Verdict starring Paul Newman. You probably remember it.   The family of a woman who died on the operating table was suing the doctors and hospital for negligence, and Newman’s character Frank Galvin finally finds the smoking gun, only to have the judge in the case render it “irrelevant.”  But the jury had seen the evidence, and it was damning.  So Newman delivers one of the great trial closing statements in movie history.  It seems to me his summation is worth looking at in these times:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o15uqb30Fq8

“You know, so much of the time we're just lost. We say, "Please, God, tell us what is right. Tell us what is true.

I mean there is no justice. The rich win; the poor are powerless. We become tired of hearing people lie. And after a time we become dead, a little dead. We think of ourselves as victims -- and we become victims. We become weak; we doubt ourselves; we doubt our beliefs; we doubt our institutions; and we doubt the law.

But today you are the law. You are the law…”

I believe that at the moment James Comey decided to reopen the investigation into the Clinton e-mail scandal, America finally got its glimpse of what is true.  And that truth is the very ugly reality that one of the candidates for the presidency of the United States is a traitor to this country.  I need not make that case.  In the coming weeks the truth will become more and more evident as the Clinton Inc. trail of corruption is exposed. 

We have seen enough already to know what is there: selling access and favors to foreign governments, destroying evidence under subpoena, lying to congress and obstructing justice at every turn.  Based only on what we know now from the limited evidence we the American people have been allowed to see, I don’t think anyone doubts it will all be verified in time.  I also don’t think anyone believes Hillary Clinton will ever face justice for her many crimes.

There is a deeper truth in Frank Galvin’s words.  The rich win.  If I vote for Donald Trump in order to deny the presidency to Hillary Clinton, I doubt anything will substantially change.  Trump is no more than a charlatan who has tapped into the anger and frustration of the American people in order to market himself as an “America First” populist; but everything in the man’s history demonstrates that he is not “America First” but “Trump First.”

When it came to honoring his pledges of fidelity to his spouses or indulging his basest desires, Trump chose the latter.  When it came to honoring his pledges to his investors or leaving them out in the cold and cutting and running, Trump chose the latter.  Donald Trump is clearly a self-absorbed narcissist who by no stretch of the imagination deserves to be President of the United States.

If Trump wins the presidency, I imagine he will redecorate the White House to look like some outlandish New Orleans brothel.  He will hold lavish parties, and all the Washington elite (including the Obamas and the Clintons) will attend, and they will pay due homage to the newly-crowned emperor, and they will marvel at his abilities, and laugh at the yahoos in flyover country who bought his snake oil.

I believe all of this to be true.  And yet, come Tuesday I will cast the worst vote of my life.  I will vote for Donald Trump for president.  And I will do so for one reason and one reason only.  When I am alone in that voting booth I will close my eyes, wish I had another choice, and then utter to myself the only words that will matter.

“Today I am the law.”
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 01:20:22 am by massadvj »

Offline GAJohnnie

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2016, 02:02:08 pm »
“Today I am the law.”

Brilliant.

Offline ABX

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2016, 03:25:25 pm »
An analogy I've used often during these discussions.

If a person walks up to you and offers to shoot you in one of your arms, then goes on to try to convince you that shooting you in the left arm is best because you are right dominant, you don't negotiate what size bullet to use.

Even if everyone else is accepting the choice and trying to convince you to take the bullet in the left arm, you are under no obligation personally to follow the crowd.

No, when faced with a devil's bargain like that, your obligation to  yourself is to fight against the original offer, no matter how many try to convince you to 'take one for the team'. When presented with the 'devil's bargain', the best option is to never agree to it in the first place, otherwise you will continue to be cornered into more and more of these unwinnable bargains.

Even if you stand alone, stand for what you believe is right.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2016, 03:26:13 pm by AbaraXas »

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2016, 04:14:57 pm »
 :hands:
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Offline Longmire

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2016, 11:59:49 pm »
I think you're wrong about Trump and predict he will run one of the most citizen accessible administrations ever.

However I applaud your decision to vote for him despite the reservations.  :patriot:

Offline massadvj

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2016, 12:00:51 am »
An analogy I've used often during these discussions.

If a person walks up to you and offers to shoot you in one of your arms, then goes on to try to convince you that shooting you in the left arm is best because you are right dominant, you don't negotiate what size bullet to use.

Even if everyone else is accepting the choice and trying to convince you to take the bullet in the left arm, you are under no obligation personally to follow the crowd.

No, when faced with a devil's bargain like that, your obligation to  yourself is to fight against the original offer, no matter how many try to convince you to 'take one for the team'. When presented with the 'devil's bargain', the best option is to never agree to it in the first place, otherwise you will continue to be cornered into more and more of these unwinnable bargains.

Even if you stand alone, stand for what you believe is right.

I believe we are both acting in accordance with our deeply held beliefs, Abx.  I think all of us have been tested by this election, and I don't think either of us will enter the voting booth with any illusions.

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2016, 12:44:57 am »
Good post, Victor.

"And that truth is the very ugly reality that one of the candidates for the presidency of the United States is a traitor to this country.  I need not make that case.  In the coming weeks the truth will become more and more evident as the Clinton Inc. trail of corruption is exposed."

Things are happening.
First, a hint of movement.
Then, more.
Then.... this:

Offline massadvj

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2016, 01:16:08 am »
I think you're wrong about Trump and predict he will run one of the most citizen accessible administrations ever.

However I applaud your decision to vote for him despite the reservations.  :patriot:

I sincerely hope you are right, and that Trump turns out to be a better man than I imagine him to be.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 01:19:00 am by massadvj »

Offline LMAO

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2016, 01:52:28 am »
“Loco” or “Corrupto?”  The Case for Loco.
Victor J. Massad

This whole Hillary Clinton e-mail fiasco reminds me of that great movie The Verdict starring Paul Newman. You probably remember it.   The family of a woman who died on the operating table was suing the doctors and hospital for negligence, and Newman’s character Frank Galvin finally finds the smoking gun, only to have the judge in the case render it “irrelevant.”  But the jury had seen the evidence, and it was damning.  So Newman delivers one of the great trial closing statements in movie history.  It seems to me his summation is worth looking at in these times:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o15uqb30Fq8

“You know, so much of the time we're just lost. We say, "Please, God, tell us what is right. Tell us what is true.

I mean there is no justice. The rich win; the poor are powerless. We become tired of hearing people lie. And after a time we become dead, a little dead. We think of ourselves as victims -- and we become victims. We become weak; we doubt ourselves; we doubt our beliefs; we doubt our institutions; and we doubt the law.

But today you are the law. You are the law…”

I believe that at the moment James Comey decided to reopen the investigation into the Clinton e-mail scandal, America finally got its glimpse of what is true.  And that truth is the very ugly reality that one of the candidates for the presidency of the United States is a traitor to this country.  I need not make that case.  In the coming weeks the truth will become more and more evident as the Clinton Inc. trail of corruption is exposed. 

We have seen enough already to know what is there: selling access and favors to foreign governments, destroying evidence under subpoena, lying to congress and obstructing justice at every turn.  Based only on what we know now from the limited evidence we the American people have been allowed to see, I don’t think anyone doubts it will all be verified in time.  I also don’t think anyone believes Hillary Clinton will ever face justice for her many crimes.

There is a deeper truth in Frank Galvin’s words.  The rich win.  If I vote for Donald Trump in order to deny the presidency to Hillary Clinton, I doubt anything will substantially change.  Trump is no more than a charlatan who has tapped into the anger and frustration of the American people in order to market himself as an “America First” populist; but everything in the man’s history demonstrates that he is not “America First” but “Trump First.”

When it came to honoring his pledges of fidelity to his spouses or indulging his basest desires, Trump chose the latter.  When it came to honoring his pledges to his investors or leaving them out in the cold and cutting and running, Trump chose the latter.  Donald Trump is clearly a self-absorbed narcissist who by no stretch of the imagination deserves to be President of the United States.

If Trump wins the presidency, I imagine he will redecorate the White House to look like some outlandish New Orleans brothel.  He will hold lavish parties, and all the Washington elite (including the Obamas and the Clintons) will attend, and they will pay due homage to the newly-crowned emperor, and they will marvel at his abilities, and laugh at the yahoos in flyover country who bought his snake oil.

I believe all of this to be true.  And yet, come Tuesday I will cast the worst vote of my life.  I will vote for Donald Trump for president.  And I will do so for one reason and one reason only.  When I am alone in that voting booth I will close my eyes, wish I had another choice, and then utter to myself the only words that will matter.

“Today I am the law.”

Good read.

And, like you, I hope to be proven wrong regarding what a Trump presidency will be like should he win.

The country cannot afford for me to be right
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2016, 04:55:32 pm »
An analogy I've used often during these discussions.

If a person walks up to you and offers to shoot you in one of your arms, then goes on to try to convince you that shooting you in the left arm is best because you are right dominant, you don't negotiate what size bullet to use.

Even if everyone else is accepting the choice and trying to convince you to take the bullet in the left arm, you are under no obligation personally to follow the crowd.

No, when faced with a devil's bargain like that, your obligation to  yourself is to fight against the original offer, no matter how many try to convince you to 'take one for the team'. When presented with the 'devil's bargain', the best option is to never agree to it in the first place, otherwise you will continue to be cornered into more and more of these unwinnable bargains.

Even if you stand alone, stand for what you believe is right.

All due respect (and that is great) abraxas's post is off-topic - we are discussing Hill-O-Lies, not someone else. Ignoring that minor transgression, I will respond to the content of the post quoted above anyway. This analogy is indeed repeated frequently and often. It presents a couple of very popular but utterly false premises and equally false analogies in support of its central thesis. Voting is not about shooting people least of all one's self. It's likewise not about making a moral statement or about asserting one's beliefs about philosophy. Nor does voting involve any "bargaining" with anyone, either the Devil or anyone else.

Voting is simply and only about contributing the fractional amount of voltage that one's franchise allows to cause one circuit to light up or another. Voltage applied to a circuit that cannot light up goes to ground.

Adding non-existent moral / philosophical dimensions to the act of voting (such as stating that by voting in some particular way, one in some way "stands up" for something other than one candidate or another) allows people to put forth arguments which they otherwise could not. The fact that these false theses are convenient for the purpose to which they are applied does not alter the fact that they are false, and wholly, transparently contrived.       

This is colloquially known as "grinding an ax" and classically known as convincing through the use of a sophistic dialectic.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2016, 05:42:28 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2016, 05:00:00 pm »
An analogy I've used often during these discussions.

If a person walks up to you and offers to shoot you in one of your arms, then goes on to try to convince you that shooting you in the left arm is best because you are right dominant, you don't negotiate what size bullet to use.

Even if everyone else is accepting the choice and trying to convince you to take the bullet in the left arm, you are under no obligation personally to follow the crowd.

No, when faced with a devil's bargain like that, your obligation to  yourself is to fight against the original offer, no matter how many try to convince you to 'take one for the team'. When presented with the 'devil's bargain', the best option is to never agree to it in the first place, otherwise you will continue to be cornered into more and more of these unwinnable bargains.

Even if you stand alone, stand for what you believe is right.

Your analogy is silly. You are getting shot in the arm. There is no fighting it. It will happen. Period. It is going to be Hitlary or Donny elected President Tuesday night. There is no third option.

Offline Frank Cannon

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2016, 05:02:52 pm »
I don't care what you think, the title of this piece is funny. I like it.

Offline Jazzhead

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2016, 05:13:23 pm »
Fine essay, massadvj.   The dilemma I face is similar to yours - whether to remain neutral or to choose between "corrupto" and "loco" and vote to defeat the one I deem worse.   
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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2016, 05:15:45 pm »
An analogy I've used often during these discussions.

If a person walks up to you and offers to shoot you in one of your arms, then goes on to try to convince you that shooting you in the left arm is best because you are right dominant, you don't negotiate what size bullet to use.

Even if everyone else is accepting the choice and trying to convince you to take the bullet in the left arm, you are under no obligation personally to follow the crowd.

No, when faced with a devil's bargain like that, your obligation to  yourself is to fight against the original offer, no matter how many try to convince you to 'take one for the team'. When presented with the 'devil's bargain', the best option is to never agree to it in the first place, otherwise you will continue to be cornered into more and more of these unwinnable bargains.

Even if you stand alone, stand for what you believe is right.

VERY well stated and that is the course I will follow as long as I continue to suck air!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2016, 05:21:22 pm »
Very well done Victor! And I find no fault with your decision to vote for Trump even though I simply could not bring myself to do it.

I also hope to be proven wrong about Trump should he win which I very much doubt he will.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2016, 05:31:07 pm »
Very well done Victor! And I find no fault with your decision to vote for Trump even though I simply could not bring myself to do it.

I also hope to be proven wrong about Trump should he win which I very much doubt he will.

Your position and Vic's are actually very close.  He said before he would not vote for Trump unless he had a chance to win PA.  Since Trump does have that chance, then @massadvj will follow through with that.  Shrillary has zero chance of winning TX, so there's nothing compelling you to vote Trump.
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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2016, 05:35:28 pm »
Your position and Vic's are actually very close.  He said before he would not vote for Trump unless he had a chance to win PA.  Since Trump does have that chance, then @massadvj will follow through with that.  Shrillary has zero chance of winning TX, so there's nothing compelling you to vote Trump.

 :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline massadvj

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2016, 06:54:55 pm »
Your position and Vic's are actually very close.  He said before he would not vote for Trump unless he had a chance to win PA.  Since Trump does have that chance, then @massadvj will follow through with that.  Shrillary has zero chance of winning TX, so there's nothing compelling you to vote Trump.

As Bigun well knows, I'd rather be living and voting in Texas!

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2016, 07:07:28 pm »
As Bigun well knows, I'd rather be living and voting in Texas!

True! I just don't know what the hold up is!  :smokin:

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2016, 07:14:27 pm »
Just excellent Victor.  It really is.
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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2016, 07:31:14 pm »
“Loco” or “Corrupto?”  The Case for Loco.
Victor J. Massad

This whole Hillary Clinton e-mail fiasco reminds me of that great movie The Verdict starring Paul Newman. You probably remember it.   The family of a woman who died on the operating table was suing the doctors and hospital for negligence, and Newman’s character Frank Galvin finally finds the smoking gun, only to have the judge in the case render it “irrelevant.”  But the jury had seen the evidence, and it was damning.  So Newman delivers one of the great trial closing statements in movie history.  It seems to me his summation is worth looking at in these times:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o15uqb30Fq8

“You know, so much of the time we're just lost. We say, "Please, God, tell us what is right. Tell us what is true.

I mean there is no justice. The rich win; the poor are powerless. We become tired of hearing people lie. And after a time we become dead, a little dead. We think of ourselves as victims -- and we become victims. We become weak; we doubt ourselves; we doubt our beliefs; we doubt our institutions; and we doubt the law.

But today you are the law. You are the law…”

I believe that at the moment James Comey decided to reopen the investigation into the Clinton e-mail scandal, America finally got its glimpse of what is true.  And that truth is the very ugly reality that one of the candidates for the presidency of the United States is a traitor to this country.  I need not make that case.  In the coming weeks the truth will become more and more evident as the Clinton Inc. trail of corruption is exposed. 

We have seen enough already to know what is there: selling access and favors to foreign governments, destroying evidence under subpoena, lying to congress and obstructing justice at every turn.  Based only on what we know now from the limited evidence we the American people have been allowed to see, I don’t think anyone doubts it will all be verified in time.  I also don’t think anyone believes Hillary Clinton will ever face justice for her many crimes.

There is a deeper truth in Frank Galvin’s words.  The rich win.  If I vote for Donald Trump in order to deny the presidency to Hillary Clinton, I doubt anything will substantially change.  Trump is no more than a charlatan who has tapped into the anger and frustration of the American people in order to market himself as an “America First” populist; but everything in the man’s history demonstrates that he is not “America First” but “Trump First.”

When it came to honoring his pledges of fidelity to his spouses or indulging his basest desires, Trump chose the latter.  When it came to honoring his pledges to his investors or leaving them out in the cold and cutting and running, Trump chose the latter.  Donald Trump is clearly a self-absorbed narcissist who by no stretch of the imagination deserves to be President of the United States.

If Trump wins the presidency, I imagine he will redecorate the White House to look like some outlandish New Orleans brothel.  He will hold lavish parties, and all the Washington elite (including the Obamas and the Clintons) will attend, and they will pay due homage to the newly-crowned emperor, and they will marvel at his abilities, and laugh at the yahoos in flyover country who bought his snake oil.

I believe all of this to be true.  And yet, come Tuesday I will cast the worst vote of my life.  I will vote for Donald Trump for president.  And I will do so for one reason and one reason only.  When I am alone in that voting booth I will close my eyes, wish I had another choice, and then utter to myself the only words that will matter.

“Today I am the law.”
Nicely written. If I am the law, though, I choose neither.

See how easy that is?

I have another choice, four other choices, actually in my State and I will choose one of them.

Would it matter which flavor of rot I voted to inject into the body of this Republic, if I so choose? Either will putrefy the country I love. Either will render those carefully crafted organs of State further into amorphous festering ichor for their own personal profit and amusement. Both will fill the veins of Government with their own special brand of toxic sludge.

I will not vote for either. One is not preferable to the other. The evidence has been seen, sufficiently on both sides for those who will look, that they are different sides of a coin produced from polluted mettle, deeply flawed and of questionable value.


How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sinkspur

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2016, 07:47:21 pm »
Eugene Volokh at the Washington Post:

Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2016, 07:56:14 pm »
All due respect (and that is great) abraxas's post is off-topic - we are discussing Hill-O-Lies, not someone else. Ignoring that minor transgression, I will respond to the content of the post quoted above anyway. This analogy is indeed repeated frequently and often. It presents a couple of very popular but utterly false premises and equally false analogies in support of its central thesis. Voting is not about shooting people least of all one's self. It's likewise not about making a moral statement or about asserting one's beliefs about philosophy. Nor does voting involve any "bargaining" with anyone, either the Devil or anyone else.

Voting is simply and only about contributing the fractional amount of voltage that one's franchise allows to cause one circuit to light up or another. Voltage applied to a circuit that cannot light up goes to ground.

Adding non-existent moral / philosophical dimensions to the act of voting (such as stating that by voting in some particular way, one in some way "stands up" for something other than one candidate or another) allows people to put forth arguments which they otherwise could not. The fact that these false theses are convenient for the purpose to which they are applied does not alter the fact that they are false, and wholly, transparently contrived.       

This is colloquially known as "grinding an ax" and classically known as convincing through the use of a sophistic dialectic.
Perhaps your moral/philosophical dimensions are non-existent. I cannot claim that. My vote is, after all, is my stamp of approval on something or someone. I vote for a candidate based not on who they are, but what they stand for, those moral/philosophical dimensions you so lightly pooh-pooh.
If those dimensions , which are directly reflected in the policies and actions any candidate espouses are ignored, what then, pray tell is the basis for comparison?
Height?
Hair color?
BMI?
The letter they decide to wear after their name and  the color of their team jersey?

If we are to reduce the selection of heads of State to such superficial characteristics, what would that say about the nation they represent?

The Moral/Philosophical dimensions are an essential part of choosing who I will give my approval to as a head of state, especially when that person is to represent all my country stands for for the next however many years they are in office, because they will represent to other nations the moral and philosophical dimensions of  a country that is considered 'the leader of the free world'.

All axe grinding aside, of those who are the major candidates this year, I can choose neither.

If you think those theses false, you aren't wired right.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2016, 08:00:54 pm »
Election Day:  I will step into the booth and decide...

I doubt I will know when I pull into the parking lot.
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline massadvj

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Re: “Loco” or “Corrupto?” The Case for Loco.
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2016, 08:16:59 pm »
Just excellent Victor.  It really is.

 :patriot: