Author Topic: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown  (Read 7942 times)

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Offline r9etb

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2016, 05:42:10 pm »
Ideally of course, that is true. However, as I recall, one of the reasons that the urgent attempt of a junior project manager to stop the Challenger launch because of a danger of O-ring failure was frustrated, was that the senior NASA manager(s) overruled his assessment and decided that the "risk factor was acceptable". I wonder if the crew of Challenger would have agreed if asked whether they believed that the "risk factor for O-Ring failure" was acceptable.

This is an example of how non-technical considerations can often affect technical decisions, whether in the design of a system, or in space operations.

They were under tremendous media and political pressure to launch.  They had already scrubbed that launch a couple of times, and after the scrub just prior to the explosion, I recall very clearly Dan Rather grimly announcing the scrub, adding "... raising the question of whether NASA can ever launch a Shuttle on time."

Plus which, the SOTU was coming up, and they wanted to take advantage of the optics created by having a Teacher in space.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2016, 05:50:42 pm »
This is an example of how non-technical considerations can often affect technical decisions, whether in the design of a system, or in space operations.

They were under tremendous media and political pressure to launch.  They had already scrubbed that launch a couple of times, and after the scrub just prior to the explosion, I recall very clearly Dan Rather grimly announcing the scrub, adding "... raising the question of whether NASA can ever launch a Shuttle on time."

Plus which, the SOTU was coming up, and they wanted to take advantage of the optics created by having a Teacher in space.

Yeah, Dan Rather strikes again! What's the frequency, Kenneth!?! Way too often if you ask me.
in his last years, Michael Crichton spoke a lot about his concerns about how politics and "other non-technical considerations" are intruding into science management.

It's gotten so bad now, that politicians are even allowed to overrule genuine scientists when those politicians decide that the opinions of some scientists are not in line with some non-scientific consensus of opinion, as in the case of the religion of Anthropogenic Global Warming.
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geronl

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« Last Edit: October 28, 2016, 07:54:00 pm by geronl »

Offline wolfcreek

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2016, 08:19:00 pm »
Damn. 

For whatever reason, the failure rate for Mars missions is incredibly high. 

I wonder if the failure mode is like what happened to the Mars Polar Lander: "The Mars Polar Lander's December 1999 demise apparently occurred when the lander thought the jolt of its landing leg deployment was touchdown - and shut its engines off."

"No parking zone"

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Offline anymouse

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2016, 08:44:40 pm »
Martian SDI still active and puts another notch on their disintegration ray gun. ;)
Anymouse

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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2016, 08:59:13 pm »
Martian SDI still active and puts another notch on their disintegration ray gun. ;)

Anyone who has "Nevertrump" as a screen avatar is de facto a Hill-O-Lies supporter (regardless of whatever rationalization with which they may assuage their conscience) and too dumb or immoral to rate a civil response.
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geronl

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2016, 09:01:25 pm »
Anyone who has "Nevertrump" as a screen avatar is de facto a Hill-O-Lies supporter (regardless of whatever rationalization with which they may assuage their conscience) and too dumb or immoral to rate a civil response.

Trump is and has always been a Hillary supporter. Democrat Trump has done more damage to conservatism and the Republican Party in a year than Hillary and Obama have done in their lifetimes.

That was the plan.

Offline r9etb

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2016, 09:11:50 pm »
Anyone who has "Nevertrump" as a screen avatar is de facto a Hill-O-Lies supporter (regardless of whatever rationalization with which they may assuage their conscience) and too dumb or immoral to rate a civil response.

And anybody who drags Trump vs. Clinton into a discussion of a Mars lander crash, is in the grip of an unhealthy obsession.  Might I suggest it is possible and healthy to discuss topics other than the ones you're interested in?

geronl

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2016, 09:13:27 pm »
And anybody who drags Trump vs. Clinton into a discussion of a Mars lander crash, is in the grip of an unhealthy obsession.  Might I suggest it is possible and healthy to discuss topics other than the ones you're interested in?

thank you!

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2016, 09:57:14 pm »
Anyone who has "Nevertrump" as a screen avatar is de facto a Hill-O-Lies supporter (regardless of whatever rationalization with which they may assuage their conscience) and too dumb or immoral to rate a civil response.
:boring:
O for the love of mike take it to another thread lunch bucket. Don't stink up this one.
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Oceander

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2016, 01:28:41 am »
Anyone who has "Nevertrump" as a screen avatar is de facto a Hill-O-Lies supporter (regardless of whatever rationalization with which they may assuage their conscience) and too dumb or immoral to rate a civil response.

@LateForLunch

#NeverTrump

Offline Cripplecreek

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2016, 01:39:28 am »
Martian SDI still active and puts another notch on their disintegration ray gun. ;)

Martian Skynet?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2016, 03:00:14 am »
The very first manned moon landing would have ended up with an abort or a crash had computers been running the show.
@LateForLunch  @r9etb Factor in transit time for the signal, and the engines may keep running nine minutes extra. Oops. Need a better AI, or simply pad probes which compress to signal ground contact.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 03:03:28 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2016, 03:01:53 am »
Anyone who has "Nevertrump" as a screen avatar is de facto a Hill-O-Lies supporter (regardless of whatever rationalization with which they may assuage their conscience) and too dumb or immoral to rate a civil response.
Y'all have used that turd for a pull toy so long I'm surprised the string hasn't worn away. WTF does that have to do with the thread? 
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Gefn

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2016, 11:21:41 am »
I still think it was Marvin and his ray gun. :)

Ack! Ack!
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2016, 03:36:46 pm »
Y'all have used that turd for a pull toy so long I'm surprised the string hasn't worn away. WTF does that have to do with the thread?
Wow. I guess you told me. What a scathing come back, Joe. Just devastating. Especially the part about  "pulling on a turd". Inspired aphorism. Do you write professionally for a living? 

Look, I thought that new poster having an anti-Trump avatar was stupid and rude, so I expressed my opinion. Then like five people jumped in and cluttered up the thread after my single post. That made a lot of sense when one of the big complaints was "off topic posting". I posted one, they posted five. So much for cluttering up the thread with off topic posts.

Besides there are only a few days before the election. SO MAYBE IT'S APPROPRIATE TO INTERRUPT FUN AND GAMES WITH SOME SERIOUS POSTING!!!

There is no equivalent anti-Hillary faction on 'Crat forums. I find that VERY disturbing. It also find it disturbing that Smokin' Joe and Gernol and some others on this forum don't find that disturbing. There are some arguments to be made for refusing to vote for Trump. There are no GOOD arguments, but at least there are ones that are more substantive than the endless parade of feeling-centered ( at best) ones I've seen on this forum.

   Michael Medved has made about the best argument against voting for Trump that I have heard so far and even though it is still a terrible argument, at least he tries to make rational sense instead of throwing one long tantrum that boils down to, "I have supernatural powers to see the future so I know that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that Trump will be significantly better president than Hill-O-Lies".
GOTWALMA Get out of the way and leave me alone! (Nods to General Teebone)

Offline r9etb

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2016, 03:51:23 pm »
Look, I thought that new poster having an anti-Trump avatar was stupid and rude, so I expressed my opinion. Then like five people jumped in and cluttered up the thread after my single post. That made a lot of sense when one of the big complaints was "off topic posting". I posted one, they posted five. So much for cluttering up the thread with off topic posts.

Did nobody ever teach you the first law of holes?

Oceander

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2016, 04:06:57 pm »
Wow. I guess you told me. What a scathing come back, Joe. Just devastating. Especially the part about  "pulling on a turd". Inspired aphorism. Do you write professionally for a living? 

Look, I thought that new poster having an anti-Trump avatar was stupid and rude, so I expressed my opinion. Then like five people jumped in and cluttered up the thread after my single post. That made a lot of sense when one of the big complaints was "off topic posting". I posted one, they posted five. So much for cluttering up the thread with off topic posts.

Besides there are only a few days before the election. SO MAYBE IT'S APPROPRIATE TO INTERRUPT FUN AND GAMES WITH SOME SERIOUS POSTING!!!

There is no equivalent anti-Hillary faction on 'Crat forums. I find that VERY disturbing. It also find it disturbing that Smokin' Joe and Gernol and some others on this forum don't find that disturbing. There are some arguments to be made for refusing to vote for Trump. There are no GOOD arguments, but at least there are ones that are more substantive than the endless parade of feeling-centered ( at best) ones I've seen on this forum.

   Michael Medved has made about the best argument against voting for Trump that I have heard so far and even though it is still a terrible argument, at least he tries to make rational sense instead of throwing one long tantrum that boils down to, "I have supernatural powers to see the future so I know that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that Trump will be significantly better president than Hill-O-Lies".


I don't need to have supernatural senses to know that Trump will be a terrible president, I just need to use the common sense God gave me to look at his past, at what he's done and said, and apply a modicum of rational thought to the garbage that comes out of his mouth now to know that.  Perhaps if the bleep had used their God-given wits and not swooned like lovesick puppies we wouldn't be where we are now:  about to lose what should have been the easiest election to win in living memory. 

Offline Weird Tolkienish Figure

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2016, 04:08:26 pm »
This thread needs to be locked, bigtime.

geronl

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2016, 04:10:45 pm »
This thread needs to be locked, bigtime.

And there is another one for my huge IGNORE list now too.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2016, 04:24:23 pm »
Did nobody ever teach you the first law of holes?
Drive for show, putt for dough? :laugh:
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2016, 05:16:42 pm »
Wow. I guess you told me. What a scathing come back, Joe. Just devastating. Especially the part about  "pulling on a turd". Inspired aphorism. Do you write professionally for a living? 

Look, I thought that new poster having an anti-Trump avatar was stupid and rude, so I expressed my opinion. Then like five people jumped in and cluttered up the thread after my single post. That made a lot of sense when one of the big complaints was "off topic posting". I posted one, they posted five. So much for cluttering up the thread with off topic posts.

Besides there are only a few days before the election. SO MAYBE IT'S APPROPRIATE TO INTERRUPT FUN AND GAMES WITH SOME SERIOUS POSTING!!!
Okay, you don't have to shout. For starters, after the craniorectal insertion the GOP has had this year, after four decades of support they can KMA, I'm no longer a member. That's serious. Such changes are not made lightly.
Second, in order to cut down on the wailing, gnashing of teeth, and rending of garments around here, we have a tendency toward 'gallows humor'. Handle it, it  will only get more intense.

Now for the really serious part. Due to the collective stupidity of the American voting public, it is highly like that without accident, incident, or Divine Intervention we will end up with one of two New York Liberals for President, neither of which is suited for the task.
It doesn't get much more effing serious than that.
Quote
There is no equivalent anti-Hillary faction on 'Crat forums. I find that VERY disturbing. It also find it disturbing that Smokin' Joe and Gernol and some others on this forum don't find that disturbing. There are some arguments to be made for refusing to vote for Trump. There are no GOOD arguments, but at least there are ones that are more substantive than the endless parade of feeling-centered ( at best) ones I've seen on this forum.
Why should I find that disturbing? I don't hang out on Democrat forums. If you don't want to see bad things written about Trump (like the truth), well, maybe you can't handle the truth. Maybe you would find one of the many forums out there which will tolerate no ill word about their subject of worship more to your tastes. Those of us here who are going into this horrorshow with our eyes open are going to discuss what we expect, when it will be time to dump the stock portfolio, buy metals, groceries, tools, or more ammo, and basically try to figure out who will be shooting at who, 'cause I think that's coming.

Quote
   Michael Medved has made about the best argument against voting for Trump that I have heard so far and even though it is still a terrible argument, at least he tries to make rational sense instead of throwing one long tantrum that boils down to, "I have supernatural powers to see the future so I know that there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that Trump will be significantly better president than Hill-O-Lies".
I don't know anyone here who claims to have supernatural powers to see the future.

I have been paying attention to Mr. Trump's escapades, many of which are well recorded, and they bode ill for the future of any country run like he runs his businesses. It does not take a genius at extrapolation to anticipate a trainwreck.

Reasons people will vote for him vary, but I am not so terrified of Hillary that I will vote for him. I do not think he will do a significantly better job than she will, nor do I think he will better follow the Constitution of the United States, as he doesn't even know how many Articles it has.
He, too, has oft embraced Liberal philosophies, Planned Parenthood, and has engaged in questionable practices in the past limited in scope because he hasn't had access to the things Hillary has.

Frankly, there is no excuse I can see to vote for either of them.

So I won't. Michael Medved can vote for whoever he damn well pleases.
So can I.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2016, 05:26:45 pm »
Okay, you don't have to shout. For starters, after the craniorectal insertion the GOP has had this year, after four decades of support they can KMA, I'm no longer a member. That's serious. Such changes are not made lightly.
Second, in order to cut down on the wailing, gnashing of teeth, and rending of garments around here, we have a tendency toward 'gallows humor'. Handle it, it  will only get more intense.

Now for the really serious part. Due to the collective stupidity of the American voting public, it is highly like that without accident, incident, or Divine Intervention we will end up with one of two New York Liberals for President, neither of which is suited for the task.
It doesn't get much more effing serious than that. Why should I find that disturbing? I don't hang out on Democrat forums. If you don't want to see bad things written about Trump (like the truth), well, maybe you can't handle the truth. Maybe you would find one of the many forums out there which will tolerate no ill word about their subject of worship more to your tastes. Those of us here who are going into this horrorshow with our eyes open are going to discuss what we expect, when it will be time to dump the stock portfolio, buy metals, groceries, tools, or more ammo, and basically try to figure out who will be shooting at who, 'cause I think that's coming.
I don't know anyone here who claims to have supernatural powers to see the future.

I have been paying attention to Mr. Trump's escapades, many of which are well recorded, and they bode ill for the future of any country run like he runs his businesses. It does not take a genius at extrapolation to anticipate a trainwreck.

Reasons people will vote for him vary, but I am not so terrified of Hillary that I will vote for him. I do not think he will do a significantly better job than she will, nor do I think he will better follow the Constitution of the United States, as he doesn't even know how many Articles it has.
He, too, has oft embraced Liberal philosophies, Planned Parenthood, and has engaged in questionable practices in the past limited in scope because he hasn't had access to the things Hillary has.

Frankly, there is no excuse I can see to vote for either of them.

So I won't. Michael Medved can vote for whoever he damn well pleases.
So can I.

Joe, 'not gonna respond in detail on this thread. 'Wouldn't be prudent. Not that you are interested anyway - 'sounds like you have made up your mind and are truly fanatical about your position i.e., not really open to reappraising it at this time. Fine but time is running out. Clearly your conviction that there is as little chance that you will ever live to regret your decision to allow Hill-O-Lies to become president instead of doing something to stop her, is as strong as the one that there would be no substantive difference between a Hill-O-Lies presidency and Trump presidency. Selah. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2016, 05:29:59 pm by LateForLunch »
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Europe lost contact with Mars lander 1 minute before touchdown
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2016, 06:30:15 am »
Joe, 'not gonna respond in detail on this thread. 'Wouldn't be prudent. Not that you are interested anyway - 'sounds like you have made up your mind and are truly fanatical about your position i.e., not really open to reappraising it at this time. Fine but time is running out. Clearly your conviction that there is as little chance that you will ever live to regret your decision to allow Hill-O-Lies to become president instead of doing something to stop her, is as strong as the one that there would be no substantive difference between a Hill-O-Lies presidency and Trump presidency. Selah.
My vote will make no difference in the outcome of this election. Hillary Clinton will not carry this state by 1 vote. I guess you don't get that. I feel none of the desperation those of you who think Trump to be a more acceptable alternative feel, because my vote will not sway the outcome.

I can, however vote my conscience, not that I would not have anyway. You act as if I would cast the deciding ballot to make Criminal Cankles POTUS, but that just isn't so. So who is being silly, now?

Either way, this life is short, maybe shorter than we think, but eternity goes on for a long, long time. When all is said and done, I will have given my approval to neither the liar nor the thief, and I'll leave it to you to sort out which one deserves which title.

Have a nice day. :seeya:
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis