WSJ: The Cheap Moralizing of Never Trump

[EasyAce]

I think the nomination of Trump was a terrible mistake that will cost our country dearly.

Right.

But I don't think it means that those who supported him are bad people, bad Americans, or somehow lesser for it.  Many of them are "salt of the earth" types whom we might admire and respect if politics didn't enter into it.  Rougher language, etc, may be more common, but it doesn't make them bad. They're pissed off at some things at which they had good caused to be pissed, and just misjudged the best avenue for channeling that anger.

Righter.

(As for "rougher language," a) the worst of it was nothing compared to the ejaculations of the candidates and some
of their professional supporters in language less structurally coarse; and, b) if you'll pardon the expression, everyone's
entitled to an occasional "f@ck.")

Anyway, I'm not participating in any more of the election stuff, but I do want to apologise here to anyone if I acted the condescending bleep.

No apology needed, my friend. You were never as condescending as you think you might have been. As for others,
there are a lot of good people who've allowed this disgrace of an election to lead them to the poisonous wells.

How we devolved from a contest between George Washington and John Adams to a contest between Donaldus Minimus
and Hilarious Rodent Clinton puts a very sad spin on Edward R. Murrow's observation that, as a nation, we've come
into our full inheritance at a tender age. We're about to pay a tax on that inheritance enough to make a loanshark's
interest terms the essence of reasonableness.

[Smokin Joe]

If "fitness for office"  were a concern,  we would never have had a "Precedent"  Obama,  and we would not now have a candidate Hillary.   

Seriously, how many here do you think voted for him or will vote for her?

[EasyAce]

If "fitness for office"  were a concern,  we would never have had more than a few previous presidents, and we would not now have a candidate Hillary.   

Repaired on the house. 

[Emjay]

And guess what? We're still not joining you 'people' in voting for Donnie. So bitch away impotently. We simply will not be moved.

Nope!

[Emjay]

Seriously, how many here do you think voted for him or will vote for her?

I've changed my vote.  I was voting Giant Asteroid but I've decided to vote for Amazon.  Amazing company... super efficient.  They send me a present at least once a week.

[Suppressed]

I've changed my vote.  I was voting Giant Asteroid but I've decided to vote for Amazon.  Amazing company... super efficient.  They send me a present at least once a week.

C'mon, Emjay... your vote could have a real impact!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjotRSgx2k4

Enjoy Pink Floyd?  Give it a click!

[Oceander]

I've changed my vote.  I was voting Giant Asteroid but I've decided to vote for Amazon.  Amazing company... super efficient.  They send me a present at least once a week.

I'm still voting for my pet rock!

[Smokin Joe]

I'm still voting for my pet rock!

I can't. I have domesticated so many over the years I couldn't vote for all of them if I was a dead Democrat in Philadelphia. And I don't want any of them to get jealous...

[Smokin Joe]

I've changed my vote.  I was voting Giant Asteroid but I've decided to vote for Amazon.  Amazing company... super efficient.  They send me a present at least once a week.

I dunno @Emjay , people swear the asteroid will take care of the immigration problem once and for all.

[Oceander]

C'mon, Emjay... your vote could have a real impact!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjotRSgx2k4

Enjoy Pink Floyd?  Give it a click!

Sweet meteor of death!

[DiogenesLamp]

@mystery-ak
@DiogenesLamp
You know, or should know, that the owners have asked that members not make references to Hitler or Nazism because those references are so inflammatory by their very nature.  It's not a matter of @Luis Gonzalez trying to censor history, it's about trying to keep some slight modicum of peace here.

I don't recall seeing anything about that,   but if that is the wishes of the owners I will try to remember it.   I think it is unfortunate because the Nazis really do parallel the same social forces currently at play in the Democrat party and Democrat social groups.   

I think there are important lessons to be learned from the conditions surrounding World War II.   As a matter of fact,  I think there are important lessons to be learned throughout human history. 


The "Gates of Vienna"  come to mind as topic which is once again related to current events. 

[Oceander]

I don't recall seeing anything about that,   but if that is the wishes of the owners I will try to remember it.   I think it is unfortunate because the Nazis really do parallel the same social forces currently at play in the Democrat party and Democrat social groups.   

I think there are important lessons to be learned from the conditions surrounding World War II.   As a matter of fact,  I think there are important lessons to be learned throughout human history. 


The "Gates of Vienna"  come to mind as topic which is once again related to current events. 

I don't disagree with you.  The parallels between Trump and a certain mousy little dictator are downright scary.  However, most references are not of the learned variety but of the name-calling inflammatory variety.  Be judicious, that's all.

[DiogenesLamp]

The same could be said for Trump:  the danger is not that #NeverTrumps will not hear him, but that others - Trumpists and alt-rightists - will hear him and assist him in destroying the country.  He's already poured quite enough fuel on the violent insurrection pyre.

Trump might be a closet socialist.   I personally think he is an apolitical ego driven narcissist that probably cannot spell "socialist"   but there is no doubt whatsoever that Hillary Clinton is a psychotic socialist who is given to fits of rage.   


One candidate adheres to a political philosophy that has created a body pile of over 100 million dead.  The other appears to be just in it  mostly for his own glory,  but also to some degree for his own belief that he can actually do some good for the country.   


I don't like my choices,  but I recognize one is on a different plane of horrible than the other.   

[DiogenesLamp]

The odd part in all this is that if the discussion was just on the issues, we'd all likely agree, and not just on what is a problem, but on a lot of the solutions, too. It wasn't Trump's originally claimed political stance at the start of the Primary season that was so terribly different from the next Conservative over, it was his behaviour once the ball got rolling that caused a breach of faith, of trust, and finally, the Party.

With this I can agree.   I never believed Trump was a "converted"  conservative,  I always believed that was a phony act to gain our support because he could never win the Democrat nomination while the Clinton machine had a death grip on the party. 

I felt that most conservatives would support the tried and true fighter we had in Ted Cruz,  and Cruz was winning so Trump started cheating.   (While the media gleefully helped him do it.)   

Trump won the primary by cheating (going way over the line,  repeating scurrilous accusations that were just immoral and bound to create serious and damaging rifts)  but he did win it.    I was quite disgusted by the manner in which he secured the nomination,   but the rest of the party did not heed my counsel.   

They wanted a brawler and a winner and they simply did not care how dirty or underhanded he needed to be so long as he would do what it took to win.    I actually sympathized with that perspective,  because after all the namby pampy gentleman losers we've had losing what should have been easy races,   I too wanted someone who would let lose and knock people on their @$$.   

But I wanted that person to be Ted Cruz.   

And now that choice is off the table,  so I have to pick Donald or Hillary.    I pick Not-Hillary. 

Some followed the man, others stayed with principles. Burying principles to support a person some see as the one to repair what will take all of us working hard to fix this Republic is where we will disagree.
It isn't the problem, so much as the proposed solution.

Perhaps when this disaster is over those of us who want to restore the Republic can craft a plan to do so.

I doubt it.   There really isn't much left of the old Republic to work with now.   We have slowly (under the influence of Liberal controlled media services)  evolved into a pseudo socialist democracy,  and one from which more than half the population receives benefits from the Government. 


If there *is* to be any hope of repairing it,  we simply cannot have another blatantly socialist President.   It is already probably beyond repair,  and I think a Hillary Presidency will send us down the path of Rome,  which incidentally died of the same maladies currently affecting us. 

[DiogenesLamp]

Seriously, how many here do you think voted for him or will vote for her?

It is not what we will do that matters,  it is what that 10% of the worst informed voters who cannot make up their minds until the election is very nearly upon them will do,  that matters.   

We got 40%.   The Dems got 40%.   That tiny little cadre of fools in the middle always decide which way the nation will go.   

They obviously don't think "qualifications"  are a big deal because they twice elected Obama. 

[r9etb]

I can't. I have domesticated so many over the years I couldn't vote for all of them if I was a dead Democrat in Philadelphia. And I don't want any of them to get jealous...

Damn straight.  They'd break your bones if they found out.

[Emjay]

I dunno @Emjay , people swear the asteroid will take care of the immigration problem once and for all.

Well, yeah, there's that.

[Formerly Once-Ler]

I'm sure to get ridiculed for this by the usual suspects, but this really hit me.

I've done my share of mocking of Trump supporters, some here, mostly at TOS.  And it ashames me to admit it, but I think some of that was some latent elitism.  I'm well-educated, etc., and it is extremely seductive to slip into a tone of mocking condescension for those who aren't as educated, or aren't as good as many others in either written or verbal expression.   It's so easy to dismiss someone else's concerns just because you can make them look foolish in an argument, and it can be a bit of an ego boost as well.  "See how badly I defeated you in this discussion?  See how much better I am than you?"

I had a bit of that assholery in me when I first got commissioned.  It took spending a lot of time among enlisted Marines for me to pull my head out of my ass and realize I wasn't a better person, or a better man, simply because I was more educated or intelligent in an academic sense.  Other people can be good, decent, very capable individuals ever though politics, etc., is not their forte, and even though they haven't honed their rhetorical and linguistic skills.

I think the nomination of Trump was a terrible mistake that will cost our country dearly.  But I don't think it means that those who supported him are bad people, bad Americans, or somehow lesser for it.  Many of them are "salt of the earth" types whom we might admire and respect if politics didn't enter into it.  Rougher language, etc, may be more common, but it doesn't make them bad.  They're pissed off at some things at which they had good caused to be pissed, and just misjudged the best avenue for channeling that anger.

Anyway, I'm not participating in any more of the election stuff, but I do want to apologise here to anyone if I acted the condescending bleep.

Nice post Major.  This election has brought out the worst in all of us.

[Maj. Bill Martin]

No apology needed, my friend. You were never as condescending as you think you might have been. As for others,
there are a lot of good people who've allowed this disgrace of an election to lead them to the poisonous wells.

Well, to be clear, I was not generally referring to my treatment of NeverTrump's here.  The condescension angle really doesn't apply to them.  It was with a few ardent Trump supporters here, and a lot more on TOS.  I believed then and still believe now that they are wrong as hell in thinking that he was the best candidate.  However, I do realize that my tone with a lot of those folks was that of a condescending, elitist pr*ck, which is generally a type I despise.  So when you realize at some point that you were playing the part of something you can't stand...it's time for a course correction.  It is entirely possible to disagree strongly with people without coming from a place of arrogance.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Well, to be clear, I was not generally referring to my treatment of NeverTrump's here.  The condescension angle really doesn't apply to them.  It was with a few ardent Trump supporters here, and a lot more on TOS.  I believed then and still believe now that they are wrong as hell in thinking that he was the best candidate.  However, I do realize that my tone with a lot of those folks was that of a condescending, elitist bleep, which is generally a type I despise.  So when you realize at some point that you were playing the part of something you can't stand...it's time for a course correction.  It is entirely possible to disagree strongly with people without coming from a place of arrogance.

Don't beat yourself up major, just write it off to frustration and force of habit. 

After spending 8 years calling the people who twice helped to elect Obama to office "idiots" and worse, our side picks Trump to run.

Orange is the new black and all that.

[musiclady]

I'm sure to get ridiculed for this by the usual suspects, but this really hit me.

I've done my share of mocking of Trump supporters, some here, mostly at TOS.  And it ashames me to admit it, but I think some of that was some latent elitism.  I'm well-educated, etc., and it is extremely seductive to slip into a tone of mocking condescension for those who aren't as educated, or aren't as good as many others in either written or verbal expression.   It's so easy to dismiss someone else's concerns just because you can make them look foolish in an argument, and it can be a bit of an ego boost as well.  "See how badly I defeated you in this discussion?  See how much better I am than you?"

I had a bit of that assholery in me when I first got commissioned.  It took spending a lot of time among enlisted Marines for me to pull my head out of my ass and realize I wasn't a better person, or a better man, simply because I was more educated or intelligent in an academic sense.  Other people can be good, decent, very capable individuals ever though politics, etc., is not their forte, and even though they haven't honed their rhetorical and linguistic skills.

I think the nomination of Trump was a terrible mistake that will cost our country dearly.  But I don't think it means that those who supported him are bad people, bad Americans, or somehow lesser for it.  Many of them are "salt of the earth" types whom we might admire and respect if politics didn't enter into it.  Rougher language, etc, may be more common, but it doesn't make them bad.  They're pissed off at some things at which they had good caused to be pissed, and just misjudged the best avenue for channeling that anger.

Anyway, I'm not participating in any more of the election stuff, but I do want to apologise here to anyone if I acted the condescending bleep.

Just for the record, @Maj. Bill Martin - I have never been offended by anything you have said, nor have I found it condescending, though I have disagreed with some of what you've said.

I admire your efforts to be judicious and rational rather than emotionally responding to what amount to taunts.

At any rate, your pulling back, I think, can be understood by all of us.

This election is wearing us all very thin, and I pray we can recover from the damage done, and the ugliness revealed.

[Silver Pines]

With this I can agree.   I never believed Trump was a "converted"  conservative,  I always believed that was a phony act to gain our support because he could never win the Democrat nomination while the Clinton machine had a death grip on the party. 

I felt that most conservatives would support the tried and true fighter we had in Ted Cruz,  and Cruz was winning so Trump started cheating.   (While the media gleefully helped him do it.)   

Trump won the primary by cheating (going way over the line,  repeating scurrilous accusations that were just immoral and bound to create serious and damaging rifts)  but he did win it.    I was quite disgusted by the manner in which he secured the nomination,   but the rest of the party did not heed my counsel.   

They wanted a brawler and a winner and they simply did not care how dirty or underhanded he needed to be so long as he would do what it took to win.    I actually sympathized with that perspective,  because after all the namby pampy gentleman losers we've had losing what should have been easy races,   I too wanted someone who would let lose and knock people on their @$$.   

But I wanted that person to be Ted Cruz.   

And now that choice is off the table,  so I have to pick Donald or Hillary.    I pick Not-Hillary. 








I doubt it.   There really isn't much left of the old Republic to work with now.   We have slowly (under the influence of Liberal controlled media services)  evolved into a pseudo socialist democracy,  and one from which more than half the population receives benefits from the Government. 


If there *is* to be any hope of repairing it,  we simply cannot have another blatantly socialist President.   It is already probably beyond repair,  and I think a Hillary Presidency will send us down the path of Rome,  which incidentally died of the same maladies currently affecting us.

@DiogenesLamp

What you're saying is that we have to ultimately reward even the most morally bankrupt individuals, as long as they have Rs after their names.  Trump is an admitted sexual assaulter; is there anything that could be a dealbreaker for you?   Beating a woman?  Rape?  Murder?  Or would you just say, he's my choice so I have to vote for him?

[Norm Lenhart]

@DiogenesLamp

What you're saying is that we have to ultimately reward even the most morally bankrupt individuals, as long as they have Rs after their names.  Trump is an admitted sexual assaulter; is there anything that could be a dealbreaker for you?   Beating a woman?  Rape?  Murder?  Or would you just say, he's my choice so I have to vote for him?

It's the same excuses we hear every election for electing a liberal while being called a conservative. Thats why conservatism is screwed until we rid the movement of people like this. Clearly situational ethics are just fine with them and not conservative principles. So realistically they should pitch their tent at the GOP and be done with it.

Of course, if they did that, they couldn't continue disrupting conservatives from the inside.

[Weird Tolkienish Figure]

The idea that the GOP "base" is more holy or moral than the general US population is completely ridiculous and totally wrong. I would argue the opposite, they're less moral than the US population: they were willing to accept Trump's immorality, but the general US population isn't.

[Suppressed]

@DiogenesLampTrump is an admitted sexual assaulter

Where has he admitted that, @CatherineofAragon?

The 2005 tape doesn't show that at all...he explicitly states that they let him.

Could it still be assault?  Yes.  But he never says it is...he implies that they're perfectly willing because of his star status.

Or is there another example, about which I'm not aware?