Author Topic: Article Five Convention  (Read 7490 times)

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Online bigheadfred

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2016, 10:52:15 am »
I'm very strongly opposed to this.

Thinking that today's politicians can improve on the Founder's work is delusional in my opinion... :chairbang:

Thinking that the original document is perfect in a dynamic society is also delusional, IMO. However, giving women the right to vote may have been a grievous error. ;-)
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2016, 11:09:23 am »
Thinking that the original document is perfect in a dynamic society is also delusional, IMO. However, giving women the right to vote may have been a grievous error. ;-)

I don't have a problem with women voting...its all the idiots voting that I have a problem with.....people should have to get a license to vote..they need to pass the written test first :laugh:

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2016, 11:19:10 am »
I don't have a problem with women voting...its all the idiots voting that I have a problem with.....people should have to get a license to vote..they need to pass the written test first :laugh:

For shore. The oral test sucks.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2016, 11:22:32 am »
Bookmarking for later when I'm more awake.,

 8888spinning cat

I think I'm going to try to go back to bed for a few hours. Good night dearest peeps.
Sweet dreams!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2016, 11:24:34 am »
Sweet dreams!

Huh. I wonder what would happen if I was more awake? The world may never know.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline montanajoe

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2016, 11:27:58 am »
For shore. The oral test sucks.

Yep and give the folks in Blue states learners permits...

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2016, 11:44:57 am »
A couple of things.  I think everyone's belief that any new amendments to the Constitution would be summarily ignored is a bit exaggerated.  After all, the feral government doesn't quite flatly, baldly ignore the Constitutional limitations these days, it just horribly misinterprets the Constitution to claim it allows them to do whatever they want.  Any new amendments that were written so as to not allow such wiggle room would have a reasonable chance of reining the feds in.  I don't say they wouldn't ignore them, just that it isn't guaranteed.

And as I've said before, if you really support the Constitution, why would you not use the mechanism built into it for exactly this purpose, to rein in an out-of-control federal government, before tearing the country apart?  If the convention didn't work, we can always tear the country apart afterwards.

The Convention of States held a simulated convention recently, to see how it might work and what might come out of it.  Here are the results:

Convention of States Historic Simulation
Final Convention Report with Votes
I'm in no hurry to tear it apart. I don't want it torn apart, and that is why I am voting as I am at the top of the ticket. If it does come apart, I want to be able to tell my great grandkids I voted for the Constitution, for the Rule of Law, for America as we once knew it.

Unfortunately, one very possible scenario is that it will shred itself on the current course.

There is a limit to the amount of debt a country, any country can carry.

There is already sectional unrest, evidenced by widespread rioting, and by the widespread anger Trump has ridden to the nomination, some of which is very ugly. It varies from place to place, but in some places, it's a powder keg out there.

A hot summer, collapsing dollar, hyperinflation, a little starvation, a few riots in the wrong 'hood, and there will be blood in the streets, not just the drip, drip, drip that goes on in urban areas now, but rivers of it.

There will be only one way to control that--troops, who will be the best fed and supplied of anyone except the insider cadre in government, which they will protect first. The flow of goods and services will suffer some interruptions, perhaps minor and intermittent, perhaps major and extended, and those may well occur far from any unrest. Most people are only a couple of meals from desperation, and desperate people shed the veneer of civilization very quickly, for the most part.

FEMA won't have to have roundups, people will go to camp to feed their kids and be sorted out from there...

Maybe I'm wrong (I sure hope so), and that's just one dark possibility, but at that point we will have collectively sold our birthright for a mass of pottage.

The scary part is that I can see this happening with either of the two major candidates.
Congress gives me no faith that they will resist the continuation of ruinous fiscal policy, and if things fall apart, they will likely be just fine, whisked off to some safe zone.

A convention could go either way, accelerating the end of the Republic if the wrong people are in charge, or following the formalities, to check off one more attempt to get our Government to follow its own laws. While such might call attention to what needs to be done, that has already been done by economists, political theorists, ordinary folks, captains of industry, and gone unheeded.

So, I ask your pardon for not being very optimistic about the eventual outcome.


How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2016, 12:03:40 pm »
@Smokin Joe

I view it as something to do while waiting for the inevitable meltdown. Any real positive change is going to  be radical compared to the status quo. Too many people who are unwilling to change anything. With many lacking in the knowledge or ability to survive for very long without the massive bureaucracy of the fedgov. The wife and I were just discussing restocking the larder. We don't get too fancy, but it is around time for the stores to have case sales.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 06:59:53 pm by bigheadfred »
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2016, 12:27:54 pm »
@Smokin Joe

I view it as something to do while waiting for the inevitable meltdown. Any real positive change is going to  be radical compared to the status quo. Too many people who are unwillingly to change anything. With many lacking in the knowledge or ability to survive for very long without the massive bureaucracy of the fedgov. The wife and I were just discussing restocking the larder. We don't get too fancy, but it is around time for the stores to have case sales.
We load up on loss leaders, fill the freezers, can a lot of what comes out of the garden, and buy cases of the stuff we use most when it comes on sale. You can get some deals. We don't eat fancy, as a rule, just a solid fairly basic diet..

I can't fault the idea of something to do, and who knows, something positive may come of it. I see building a third Party pretty much the same way, when the meltdown comes, someone is going to have to step in, and it is likely the two major parties are going to fare poorly if things get really ugly.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2016, 12:53:39 pm »
@Taxcontrol

Quote
To help the exodus along, I have switched to the Constitution Party and I will be voting for Castle.  I encourage others to do the same.

Another of my useless gestures.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2016, 01:04:28 pm »
My former boss always said that the local elections were more important than the national.

I think that was true in the past, but not so much now with an overly-intrusive federal government.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2016, 01:19:13 pm »


@Sanguine   @RoosGirl  @Smokin Joe

Following a party platform without enough dissent has gotten us into the current mess.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Sanguine

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2016, 01:33:33 pm »

@Sanguine   @RoosGirl  @Smokin Joe

Following a party platform without enough dissent has gotten us into the current mess.

I've never been a big "joiner" of anything, but several years back I decided that I needed to committ and support the party that most closely aligned with constitutionalism and small-governmentism.  I thought it was the Republicans. 

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2016, 03:00:34 pm »
I'm very strongly opposed to this.

Thinking that today's politicians can improve on the Founder's work is delusional in my opinion... :chairbang:

Actually, the Founders disagreed with you.  Pretty much none of them were completely satisfied with the final draft, and figured it was the best they could do in the time available to them.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2016, 05:47:29 pm »
A couple of things.  I think everyone's belief that any new amendments to the Constitution would be summarily ignored is a bit exaggerated.  After all, the feral government doesn't quite flatly, baldly ignore the Constitutional limitations these days, it just horribly misinterprets the Constitution to claim it allows them to do whatever they want.  Any new amendments that were written so as to not allow such wiggle room would have a reasonable chance of reining the feds in.  I don't say they wouldn't ignore them, just that it isn't guaranteed.

And as I've said before, if you really support the Constitution, why would you not use the mechanism built into it for exactly this purpose, to rein in an out-of-control federal government, before tearing the country apart?  If the convention didn't work, we can always tear the country apart afterwards.


You obviously missed what I wrote here:

 I endorse an Article V convention of states for the sole purpose of establishing the justification of what will be necessary to resist those that intend to rule on their own authority.

I'm fine with attempting to pass new amendments to reign in a lawless Federal Beast.  I doubt they will ever make it to ratification without being sabotaged, and even if so - the Oligarchy is never going to allow itself to be restrained.  Tyranny never does.

Plus, those of us who want to restrain the Beast are in a growing minority. 

But as far as the Government goes, it needs to be indicted - and attempting to restrain it using the method the Founders gave is a great way to showcase the fact that the government is wholly unmoored from authority and will not live within the limited bounds it must operate within, nor will it accede to the will of the people.

Not only that - but if by some miracle The Lord granted this people the victory over tyranny - those new Amendments would be the basis of establishing new guards for our future security.

But I have no hope or expectation that they would ever make it to the ratification process before being sabotaged.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2016, 06:07:30 pm »

@Sanguine   @RoosGirl  @Smokin Joe

Following a party platform without enough dissent has gotten us into the current mess.
True, that is part of the problem. Having a platform and not following it is the rest of it.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: Article Five Convention
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2016, 06:18:48 pm »
You obviously missed what I wrote here:

 I endorse an Article V convention of states for the sole purpose of establishing the justification of what will be necessary to resist those that intend to rule on their own authority.

I'm fine with attempting to pass new amendments to reign in a lawless Federal Beast.  I doubt they will ever make it to ratification without being sabotaged, and even if so - the Oligarchy is never going to allow itself to be restrained.  Tyranny never does.

Plus, those of us who want to restrain the Beast are in a growing minority. 

But as far as the Government goes, it needs to be indicted - and attempting to restrain it using the method the Founders gave is a great way to showcase the fact that the government is wholly unmoored from authority and will not live within the limited bounds it must operate within, nor will it accede to the will of the people.

Not only that - but if by some miracle The Lord granted this people the victory over tyranny - those new Amendments would be the basis of establishing new guards for our future security.

But I have no hope or expectation that they would ever make it to the ratification process before being sabotaged.

I didn't miss a thing you wrote.  I agree with you.  I'm perhaps not so pessimistic as you, but I certainly don't think an Article V Convention will automatically, instantly fix the problems we have.  But it's very clear to me that we have to try this potential remedy before doing anything else to dissolve the ties that bind us.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!