Author Topic: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?  (Read 26303 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,127
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2016, 12:49:33 am »
@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

No,the first group will pray for your soul as they chop off your head,while the second group just chops off heads.

A distinction without a real difference.

 Sorry, but that's simply irrational.  For you to be saved, YOU have to accept Christ as your Saviour.  If I cut off your head you can't do that and therefore it would make no sense to pray for you.

I seem to also recall God saying something about murder.
My avatar shows the national debt in stacks of $100 bills.  If you look very closely under the crane you can see the Statue of Liberty.

Online bigheadfred

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,588
  • Gender: Male
  • One day Closer
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2016, 02:31:16 am »
@bigheadfred
I guess any American that isn't a Bible Thumper and accepts "The word of GAWD!" as his or her personal slavery ticket to salvation isn't a "real American",huh?

And some people still wonder why conservatism doesn't dominate!

Wow. Christmas must really suck at your house. You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Ranting about chopping heads off when you're chopping heads off. Nice. I don't care if you don't have any kind of belief system that helps with your concept of civilized behavior. But I do. And my concept of The Christ has as much to do with what isn't in the Bible as what is there.  When I was a little kid going to Sunday school and learned about the message of Christ I thought it was a pretty good deal. Then I took a good look at the people around me. I couldn't figure out WHY they couldn't follow that path. Didn't they understand? When I was eleven I finally figured it out. It wasn't that they didn't understand. They didn't CARE. So I quit with organized religion. But I kept reading and learning. My life goal is to realize my potential as a spiritual person. I've read many a 'religious' text and studied the mores, ways, and means of different cultures. Cherrypicking along the way.

Your thinking that Christianity is slavery shows me a very limited understanding of some pretty basic things. I would like for you to expound on some of the key items from your belief system that DON'T include ideas, concepts, or practices that have a basis in a belief system from some of the 'organized' religions in the world that make you a 'Conservative'.  Please and thank you.

@Doug Loss @INVAR @Smokin Joe



She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2016, 02:40:34 am »
"they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.  Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools" -  Romans 1:22
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

geronl

  • Guest
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2016, 03:27:06 am »
The movement itself is in the breakdown lane with the hood up and tow trucks won't stop.

Offline Doug Loss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,360
  • Gender: Male
  • Proud Tennessean
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2016, 11:40:03 am »
@InHeavenThereIsNoBeer

No,the first group will pray for your soul as they chop off your head,while the second group just chops off heads.

A distinction without a real difference.

That's about as delusional a comparison as you could possibly make.  Seriously, exactly when was the last time you heard of a Christian group chopping off anyone's head?
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,596
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2016, 12:19:34 pm »
That's about as delusional a comparison as you could possibly make.  Seriously, exactly when was the last time you heard of a Christian group chopping off anyone's head?
The Protestant Reformation. Sir Thomas More for one.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More It was still going on as late as the 1730s in MD, where a Jesuit Priest sold himself to one of my ancestors and thus became property of the Manor Lord and untouchable under English Law. When things settled down, the priest bought his freedom back. The old Manor House had a priest's hole and was reputed to have a tunnel to the stables to facilitate escape for fugitive Catholics. My mother played in it as a child.

I won't go into the 'troubles' in Ireland, because decapitation was not the accepted methodology for either side.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 12:20:47 pm by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,958
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2016, 12:47:43 pm »
Do you consider the founding father's irrational, they believed a creator was self evident? Most were devout Christians believing in the Bible and the resurrection.

@Idaho_Cowboy

I keep hearing that crap repeated over and over by True Believers,but repeating it as dogma doesn't make it true.

SOME of the Founding Fathers were no doubt devout Christians. Anybody that makes the blanket claim that "THE Founding Fathers were devout Christians" is being disingenuous at best,or outright lying at worse.

Yeah,all the Founding Fathers played the politically correct word games they grew up playing in a era when it was illegal to not be a devout Christian,and the Churches had as much power as the Kings,but getting away from that was one big reason so many of them came to America. INCLUDING some of the non-mainstream religious sects were persecuted for having the "wrong" faith. Remember,these people grew in an era when letters and government documents all began with "In the year of our Lord",and you could have your property seized and be put in prison for denying the existence of God.

Even after they came to America the well-educated and well-off financially non-believers had to play that game with the public because so many of the public back there were so uneducated and ignorant that the Bible was the only book in the homes most of them grew up in. If they hadn't played that game with the ignorant,chances are there would have been no revolution and they would have been put in prison.

THAT is why we have Freedom of/from Religion as one of the bases that established our government. These were educated men who know of The Reformation,the causes of it,the people behind it,and the horrors committed in the name of God. They wanted to make sure that never happened here.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline Doug Loss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,360
  • Gender: Male
  • Proud Tennessean
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2016, 12:54:12 pm »
The Protestant Reformation. Sir Thomas More for one.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More It was still going on as late as the 1730s in MD, where a Jesuit Priest sold himself to one of my ancestors and thus became property of the Manor Lord and untouchable under English Law. When things settled down, the priest bought his freedom back. The old Manor House had a priest's hole and was reputed to have a tunnel to the stables to facilitate escape for fugitive Catholics. My mother played in it as a child.

I won't go into the 'troubles' in Ireland, because decapitation was not the accepted methodology for either side.

I know this won't satisfy our resident anti-Christian, but neither group in Ireland, nor the European Catholic/Protestant crazies during the Reformation, were truly Christian according to my Orthodox understanding of the term.  Seriously, anyone acting in this way has automatically abrogated any right to the term "Christian" by being so far outside Christ's teachings.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,958
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2016, 01:08:42 pm »
I know this won't satisfy our resident anti-Christian, but neither group in Ireland, nor the European Catholic/Protestant crazies during the Reformation, were truly Christian according to my Orthodox understanding of the term.  Seriously, anyone acting in this way has automatically abrogated any right to the term "Christian" by being so far outside Christ's teachings.

@Doug Loss

Tell it to the Pope and the Irish,not us.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online Smokin Joe

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 56,596
  • I was a "conspiracy theorist". Now I'm just right.
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2016, 01:18:10 pm »
I know this won't satisfy our resident anti-Christian, but neither group in Ireland, nor the European Catholic/Protestant crazies during the Reformation, were truly Christian according to my Orthodox understanding of the term.  Seriously, anyone acting in this way has automatically abrogated any right to the term "Christian" by being so far outside Christ's teachings.
While I agree in spirit, they would have had your head for openly saying so.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Online bigheadfred

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,588
  • Gender: Male
  • One day Closer
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2016, 03:51:28 pm »
@Doug Loss

Tell it to the Pope and the Irish,not us.

Hey Sneaky. Good morning. Are you an Athiest? Or just someone who wants to be one?  Why don't you give this a skim?

 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjPtpup7rnPAhVXVWMKHT6nByYQFghZMAk&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bethinking.org%2Fdoes-science-disprove-god%2Fdoes-science-contradict-religion&usg=AFQjCNFL7EdZftFszpocTxk0zgvKIQwKGA&sig2=F3MwcVDKarViAzOWd3ymhQ

The more they find out, the more they understand that science follows God.  I may not have the VAST intellectual resources that you do so I am wondering if you could explain to a dummy like me some of your belief system that makes you a "Conservative"?  Please keep it simple and use small words. Please and thank you.

I do have a problem with people becoming so absorbed by a construct that leads to people getting their heads chopped off, but that doesn't really do anything to convince me there is no God and/or Christ. If anything, such behavior points to their existence more than it does to disprove it. The differences between mind and brain leadeth me there. Meaning that your ability to REASON there is no God points me in the direction that by having that ability, there is one.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,958
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2016, 03:51:48 pm »
While I agree in spirit, they would have had your head for openly saying so.

@Smokin Joe @Doug Loss

I have relatives that would scream "You are an agent of SATAN!" at him for even suggesting such a thing. You just ain't religious unless you are willing to kill non-believers to please God.

I once told a Holy Roller preacher that was babbling nonsense about "killing commies for Gawd!" that if there was a God and he was all-powerful,he could damn sure do his own bleeping killing. He pretty much became unhinged when I said that. He was sane enough he didn't get right in my face or personally threaten me,though. 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 03:53:25 pm by sneakypete »
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,958
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2016, 03:55:37 pm »
Hey Sneaky. Good morning. Are you an Athiest? Or just someone who wants to be one? <<

No. They do too much preacher to suit me.

I'm an agnostic. I don't give a damn if there is a God or not,but if there is,the SOB needs to be fired and replaced by a God that isn't a hypocrite.


Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Online bigheadfred

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,588
  • Gender: Male
  • One day Closer
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2016, 04:07:04 pm »


What you are referring to are constructs of man and not really universal truths and opposition to such I can agree with. Anyways, have a nice day. I am going to attempt to go fishing. Before I find out my new medication has side effects that prevent me from doing so. And you many funny. "I don't give a damn"... :silly: :silly: :silly:
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Doug Loss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,360
  • Gender: Male
  • Proud Tennessean
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2016, 04:20:57 pm »
What you are referring to are constructs of man and not really universal truths and opposition to such I can agree with. Anyways, have a nice day. I am going to attempt to go fishing. Before I find out my new medication has side effects that prevent me from doing so. And you many funny. "I don't give a damn"... :silly: :silly: :silly:
Yeah, if he didn't give a damn he wouldn't be ranting about it so much. :wink:
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline Doug Loss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,360
  • Gender: Male
  • Proud Tennessean
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2016, 04:23:48 pm »
Here's the beginning of a statement of principles and beliefs to present to those we'd like to convince they belong with us.  It's not nearly finished, but I think it's a place to start the discussion:

What We Believe

We believe that all people have certain rights, which are theirs from birth and which cannot be taken from them.  These include the right to live, the right to speak freely and without retribution, the right to own property and do with it anything they desire, the right to live their lives in the way they desire, the right to associate with others or to refrain from associating with others, the right to defend themselves against any attacks by others, and the right to defend others exercising the same rights when those others are attacked.  These rights are absolute; they can only be restrained when exercising them would interfere with the rights of others to exercise the same rights.

This is not an exhaustive list of the rights people are born with.  There are certainly other rights that are inherent with existence, but which we haven't specified here.  There are some rights that might be thought of as growing from the rights listed, but which others might consider individual rights.

You will notice that these rights are not predicated on any particular personal characteristic or on membership in any particular group.  These are rights inherent to all people.  They inhere to the individual, not to any group.

From these rights grow the concepts of freedom and liberty.  “Freedom” is the condition of being free of restraints, especially the ability to act without control or interference by another or by circumstance.  It also includes the capacity to act by choice rather than by determination.  “Liberty” is a similar concept, the condition of being free from oppressive restriction or control by a government or other power.  The rights listed above show that we believe all people are born free.  To achieve liberty they must accept only those restrictions upon their freedom that they agree to, acting in consort with other individuals.  An example would be agreeing to work together to provide for the defense of the group all belong to rather than each individual trying to defend only himself and those he's responsible for.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline jpsb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,141
  • Gender: Male
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #66 on: October 01, 2016, 04:39:14 pm »
Elect Hillary Clinton and the Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement will be about as significant as the Constitution Party is today.  Just Saying.

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #67 on: October 01, 2016, 05:12:53 pm »
Elect Hillary Clinton and the Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement will be about as significant as the Constitution Party is today.  Just Saying.

It's already there, and Hildabeast had little to do with it's irrelevance.

The GOP leadership and the folly of party loyalists have consigned the Reagan movement politically irrelevant and shrinking.

Trump simply kills what is left of it as he and his mob ascribe the word 'Conservative' to themselves.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Rivergirl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,036
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #68 on: October 01, 2016, 05:29:50 pm »
We are here.  Living our lives, Raising our children, Being productive. Volunteering, and depending upon the government for very little.

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,958
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #69 on: October 01, 2016, 05:55:45 pm »
>> Anyways, have a nice day. I am going to attempt to go fishing.<<

You too,and good for you. MUCH more productive thing to do than waste time on a bulletin board. I'm getting ready to go out and do some work in my shop. Mostly cleaning and organizing,but even that makes me happy once I get it done.


 
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,958
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #70 on: October 01, 2016, 05:58:06 pm »
Yeah, if he didn't give a damn he wouldn't be ranting about it so much. :wink:

@Doug Loss

I despise hypocrites and hypocrisy,especially in cases where the lying weasels in leadership positions talk their cult members into doing their dirty work for them.

Organized religion is about nothing but power and money. Period.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline sneakypete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 52,958
  • Twitter is for Twits
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #71 on: October 01, 2016, 05:59:43 pm »
It's already there, and Hildabeast had little to do with it's irrelevance.

The GOP leadership and the folly of party loyalists have consigned the Reagan movement politically irrelevant and shrinking.

Trump simply kills what is left of it as he and his mob ascribe the word 'Conservative' to themselves.

EXACTLY!  888high58888 It wasn't the Dims that destroyed the Republican Party. It was the old-money northeastern Country Club Republicans.
Anyone who isn't paranoid in 2021 just isn't thinking clearly!

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #72 on: October 01, 2016, 06:05:49 pm »
We believe that all people have certain rights, which are theirs from birth and which cannot be taken from them.

That means nothing to the Statist.  By what authority are they born with those rights?  Why can't the government restrict or abolish them if 'the people' see fit for their safety and security?  Such a statement simply hands the Statist the argument that rights are simply the grant of some man named Doug Loss and the people that signed onto those rights.  Therefore, other men can change them on a whim if they see fit.

If you leave God, Providence, Nature's God, or Creator out of the establishing statement of where Rights are derived, then they have no more foundation or permanency than sand.  If rights are given or agreed to by men, they can be legally diminished or abolished by men.  Look, they have already done this when our establishing document ALREADY STATES where our Rights are derived, because the bulk of our population no longer considers themselves beholden to God, Providence, Nature's God or the Creator.  The majority now believe government is the arbiter of rights, justice and fairness.  Without a Higher Authority than men, government will forever be used as the tool to diminish, regulate and abolish the rights they do not want interfering with their rule.


These include the right to live, the right to speak freely and without retribution, the right to own property and do with it anything they desire, the right to live their lives in the way they desire,

Anything they desire??  We already have that.  It's how people can lose their livelihoods because they refuse to bake a cake, and grown men can decide they are little girls and use bathrooms they want to use.  Speaking freely without retribution is already being enjoyed by BLM calling for people to kill cops. 

You must include language that makes it clear that a civil society is ordered liberty, not anarchy whereby everyone can do 'as they desire'.  As a property owner, I should be able to do with my own things, what I see fitting as to best provide for the happiness of myself and family.  Not what 'I desire'.  That word opens the door to licentiousness and anarchy.  Liberty has to be grounded upon the bulwark foundation of moral principles that are out of the reach and authority of men - meaning they cannot be changed for a different set of moralities.  In Europe -  what was once considered morality is being replaced with Sharia Law.  Here, our morality is being replaced with Hedonistic Marxism.  As a people we either agree that the biblical/Judeo-Christian morality we were established by is immutable and the foundation everything stands upon - or we don't.  And if we do not - then this exercise of creating a statement of Conservative Belief is meaningless.  Everyone will do what is right in his own eyes, or as cede all authority to the state to decide.  And we will continue this slide into tyranny.

the right to associate with others or to refrain from associating with others, the right to defend themselves against any attacks by others, and the right to defend others exercising the same rights when those others are attacked.  These rights are absolute; they can only be restrained when exercising them would interfere with the rights of others to exercise the same rights.

I would be more specific and add a few.  The right to do business or refrain from doing business with persons, agendas or entities that conflict with the mission, conscience or principles of the company owners.  The right to assemble and belong to any group without interference, (excepting groups that are hostile to, or at war with these rights and foundations be they foreign entities or domestic).  To be able to peaceably protest without interfering with the movements or rights of others in places of their own choosing without restriction to locations and times.  The right to self defense and the right to defend others exceeds all other rights and preserves those rights from infringement to preserve and maintain liberty.  Therefore, the inalienable, insoluble and permanent right of the people to keep and bear weapons such as firearms, swords, blades, ammunition and the materials to manufacture, supply and otherwise provide for the possession of and use of such arms, cannot, shall not and will not be infringed, limited, restricted or abolished by congress, the courts or the Executive.

My .02¢
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 06:25:37 pm by INVAR »
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,961
  • Gender: Male
  • Dread To Tread
    • Sword At The Ready
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #73 on: October 01, 2016, 06:20:25 pm »
@Doug Loss

I despise hypocrites and hypocrisy,especially in cases where the lying weasels in leadership positions talk their cult members into doing their dirty work for them.

Organized religion is about nothing but power and money. Period.

Sneaky,

I have no problem with your suspicions and personal disbelief of organized religion and religion itself - it does indeed have a sordid history, and it was never what was intended to be from the beginning.  You choosing to be free from religion is your right and choice.  I have no issue with that.

That said - for the sake of this argument, I would implore you to consider agreeing with the statement that our rights are Providential or in the realm and Authority of the Creator rather than by or from the authority of men, only for the purpose of establishing permanence of our rights under Liberty.  Our Rights must derive and come from an Authority higher than those of men simply due the fact that by doing so - you and your posterity would hold onto liberty a lot longer and would have a moral case for doing so.  It provides us an inalienable right to resist any infringements or abolishments by the hands of government.  We technically have that now, but too many are ignorant of that because most people look at government as the highest authority and therefore having the ability to regulate, restrict or infringe on our rights with impunity.

I'm not asking you to believe in God, I'm suggesting agreeing with the principle that our rights come from outside the authority of men and institutions of men, and they have no authority to interfere with them.

Otherwise we do not have rights at all.

We have privileges, granted by the whim of government.

Just a suggestion to further the discussion.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Doug Loss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,360
  • Gender: Male
  • Proud Tennessean
Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #74 on: October 01, 2016, 08:02:22 pm »
That means nothing to the Statist.  By what authority are they born with those rights?  Why can't the government restrict or abolish them if 'the people' see fit for their safety and security?  Such a statement simply hands the Statist the argument that rights are simply the grant of some man named Doug Loss and the people that signed onto those rights.  Therefore, other men can change them on a whim if they see fit.

If you leave God, Providence, Nature's God, or Creator out of the establishing statement of where Rights are derived, then they have no more foundation or permanency than sand.  If rights are given or agreed to by men, they can be legally diminished or abolished by men.  Look, they have already done this when our establishing document ALREADY STATES where our Rights are derived, because the bulk of our population no longer considers themselves beholden to God, Providence, Nature's God or the Creator.  The majority now believe government is the arbiter of rights, justice and fairness.  Without a Higher Authority than men, government will forever be used as the tool to diminish, regulate and abolish the rights they do not want interfering with their rule.

I intentionally stayed away from any mention of religious beliefs so as to cast the net as widely as possible.  And I wasn't writing this to convince the statists; they've already made their choice against freedom.  I'm trying to coalesce the thoughts of those who are malcontented with the current situation but who haven't been able to figure out what to do and where to belong.

Quote
Anything they desire??  We already have that.  It's how people can lose their livelihoods because they refuse to bake a cake, and grown men can decide they are little girls and use bathrooms they want to use.  Speaking freely without retribution is already being enjoyed by BLM calling for people to kill cops. 

You must include language that makes it clear that a civil society is ordered liberty, not anarchy whereby everyone can do 'as they desire'.  As a property owner, I should be able to do with my own things, what I see fitting as to best provide for the happiness of myself and family.  Not what 'I desire'.  That word opens the door to licentiousness and anarchy.  Liberty has to be grounded upon the bulwark foundation of moral principles that are out of the reach and authority of men - meaning they cannot be changed for a different set of moralities.  In Europe -  what was once considered morality is being replaced with Sharia Law.  Here, our morality is being replaced with Hedonistic Marxism.  As a people we either agree that the biblical/Judeo-Christian morality we were established by is immutable and the foundation everything stands upon - or we don't.  And if we do not - then this exercise of creating a statement of Conservative Belief is meaningless.  Everyone will do what is right in his own eyes, or as cede all authority to the state to decide.  And we will continue this slide into tyranny.

I'm trying to start from the general and work toward the specific.  And "desire" doesn't only mean carnal desire.  You will notice that I mention that those rights can be restrained where they impede the ability of others to exercise the same rights.  That covers desires that would harm others.

Quote
I would be more specific and add a few.  The right to do business or refrain from doing business with persons, agendas or entities that conflict with the mission, conscience or principles of the company owners.  The right to assemble and belong to any group without interference, (excepting groups that are hostile to, or at war with these rights and foundations be they foreign entities or domestic).  To be able to peaceably protest without interfering with the movements or rights of others in places of their own choosing without restriction to locations and times.  The right to self defense and the right to defend others exceeds all other rights and preserves those rights from infringement to preserve and maintain liberty.  Therefore, the inalienable, insoluble and permanent right of the people to keep and bear weapons such as firearms, swords, blades, ammunition and the materials to manufacture, supply and otherwise provide for the possession of and use of such arms, cannot, shall not and will not be infringed, limited, restricted or abolished by congress, the courts or the Executive.

Again, I'm starting from the general, then moving to the specific.  As I say, this is just a beginning.  What I want to do is to get basic, universal principles down, then develop them to show how everything you mention here flows naturally from them.
My political philosophy:

1) I'm not bothering anybody.
2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!