Author Topic: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?  (Read 26447 times)

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Offline INVAR

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #75 on: October 01, 2016, 08:43:57 pm »
I intentionally stayed away from any mention of religious beliefs so as to cast the net as widely as possible.  And I wasn't writing this to convince the statists; they've already made their choice against freedom.  I'm trying to coalesce the thoughts of those who are malcontented with the current situation but who haven't been able to figure out what to do and where to belong.

You are talking about Rights.  If you do not set them in the right foundation, then everything you desire to build on top of it, will be unstable and easily collapsed.  That's just a plain fact. 

Describing a set of beliefs so as to attract the widest nest possible sounds good, but then you will have to be all things to all people - and you are setting yourself up for division and discord among those you attract in very short order.  It is better to attract people to an established foundation rather than simply getting them all in one place and then attempting to get an agreement on what kind of foundation to build.  Because if you do the latter - it will come to nothing.


I'm trying to start from the general and work toward the specific. 

The 'general' has to come from a specific foundation or you're just talking platitudes with no solid support.  Immutable concept of liberty are founded in our Judeo-Christian-Biblical heritage.  You do not have to go preaching that out front - and you do not need that to be a requirement to belong, but it should be the basis you build the principles you are attempting to get a wayward population to re-embrace.  We're talking Apologetics here.  Apologetics to our heritage and our unique form of liberty.

And "desire" doesn't only mean carnal desire.  You will notice that I mention that those rights can be restrained where they impede the ability of others to exercise the same rights.  That covers desires that would harm others.

You and I might understand that, but the language of society today would interpret that word to mean other than what you intended it to.

As I say, this is just a beginning.  What I want to do is to get basic, universal principles down, then develop them to show how everything you mention here flows naturally from them.

Start with the foundation.  Developing principles without a foundation is not wise.  What you might be confusing is how to persuade others to the principles you are laying out.  That is what has been missing for decades within the Conservative movement - the ability to persuade others that the principles we hold are worthwhile and essential for liberty to exist.  When society cast out our religious heritage and morality, the Conservative movement went lukewarm on our faith and principles out of fear of offense and to cast that wide net you describe.  Look what the results were. 

You are talking about doing what has already been done within the GOP when you are talking about starting with general ideas and moving to specifics.  You will find that in so doing, the specifics are rejected outright in a society that has devolved such as ours has.

Whether or not you would agree with this - we are talking about spiritual principles here.  Grounding them in general ideas without laying them in the bedrock from which they originally came from is as I said, building a movement in sand.

I'm trying to help, not hurt. 
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline thackney

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #76 on: October 01, 2016, 09:01:38 pm »
Anything they desire??  We already have that.  It's how people can lose their livelihoods because they refuse to bake a cake, and grown men can decide they are little girls and use bathrooms they want to use.  Speaking freely without retribution is already being enjoyed by BLM calling for people to kill cops. 

Don't stop reading mid-paragraph.  Equal weight with the first words is the last sentence in the same paragraph.

Quote
These rights are absolute; they can only be restrained when exercising them would interfere with the rights of others to exercise the same rights.

Life is fragile, handle with prayer

Offline INVAR

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #77 on: October 01, 2016, 09:06:50 pm »
Don't stop reading mid-paragraph.  Equal weight with the first words is the last sentence in the same paragraph.

You and I already understand what that means being on this board.

A majority of people do not, even a majority that vote Republican.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #78 on: October 01, 2016, 09:51:46 pm »
Sneaky,


That said - for the sake of this argument, I would implore you to consider agreeing with the statement that our rights are Providential or in the realm and Authority of the Creator rather than by or from the authority of men, only for the purpose of establishing permanence of our rights under Liberty.  Our Rights must derive and come from an Authority higher than those of men <<

@INVAR

Nope. Not gonna do it. We,any and all of us,ONLY HAVE THOSE RIGHTS WE ARE WILLING TO FIGHT AND DIE TO KEEP. IMO,people that think there rights come from a God have a tendency to lay back and pray for the God to restore their rights when an oppressive government takes them away. People who understand and accept that nobody is going to give them a damn thing and they have to be proactive in one form or another if they want to continue to keep living free have a better chance of continuing to live free.


>>I'm not asking you to believe in God, I'm suggesting agreeing with the principle that our rights come from outside the authority of men and institutions of men, <<

Which means you are in essence asking me to believe in a God that will do for me what I am not willing to do for myself. That has not been my experience in life,and I can't see where it has been anyone else's,either.

 
>>Otherwise we do not have rights at all.<<

Once again,we ONLY have those rights we are willing to fight and die for,and to kill for if necessary.

 
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Offline Doug Loss

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #79 on: October 01, 2016, 09:55:06 pm »
Whether or not you would agree with this - we are talking about spiritual principles here.  Grounding them in general ideas without laying them in the bedrock from which they originally came from is as I said, building a movement in sand.

I'm trying to help, not hurt.

I understand that, and I appreciate the criticisms.  What I'm afraid of is that if I ground those inherent rights unequivocally as coming from God, we will turn away a substantial group who will immediately dismiss this as a religious call, which it is not.  How about this modification:


"We believe that all people have certain rights, which are theirs from birth and which cannot be taken from them.  Many people believe these rights to be imbued by God the Creator; others see them as inherent to consciousness and self-awareness.  But all agree that these rights are fundamental to all people.  These include..."
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #80 on: October 01, 2016, 10:08:27 pm »

"We believe that all people have certain rights, which are theirs from birth and which cannot be taken from them.  Many people believe these rights to be imbued by God the Creator; others see them as inherent to consciousness and self-awareness.  But all agree that these rights are fundamental to all people.  These include..."

@Doug Loss

I'll sign up for that one.
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Offline INVAR

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #81 on: October 01, 2016, 10:11:16 pm »
Nope. Not gonna do it. We,any and all of us,ONLY HAVE THOSE RIGHTS WE ARE WILLING TO FIGHT AND DIE TO KEEP. IMO,people that think there rights come from a God have a tendency to lay back and pray for the God to restore their rights when an oppressive government takes them away. People who understand and accept that nobody is going to give them a damn thing and they have to be proactive in one form or another if they want to continue to keep living free have a better chance of continuing to live free.

I'm not one of those prosperity Gospel types Pete.  I'm not one of those Christians who think that we have no stake in securing our rights or liberties.  God did not just hand the nation over to the Founders and said 'Here ya go'.  They did indeed have to fight for it in a bloody contest, and you are correct - we MUST FIGHT for the rights we believe in, God is not just going to hand them to us on a silver platter.  On that we are agreed.

Those rights are HATED by the world and anathema to the natural state of human nature, whose entire history is replete with the acts of subjugation, slavery and oppression.  To maintain them requires the threat and ability to use force.  Its why the Founders enshrined the Second Amendment for us as an inalienable right.

Which means you are in essence asking me to believe in a God that will do for me what I am not willing to do for myself. That has not been my experience in life,and I can't see where it has been anyone else's,either.

I'm asking you to agree with the concept that our rights belong in a Court of Authority that the filthy hands of men and government have no right to encroach upon, rescind or take away.  I do not care what form you wish to ascribe it to.  Believers will lay it in the court of God, because in our estimation that court trumps the authority of men to tamper.  I do not know exactly how you would describe that with your belief system, but I am suggesting you find the right words, and even that we disagree on this point - we can stand together on the cause of enshrining our rights.  I'm talking in the legal sense that courts of men have no jurisdiction to touch them, so that you and your posterity will always have the legal moral authority to resist each and every encroachment upon them, whether secular OR religious tyranny.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #82 on: October 01, 2016, 10:12:37 pm »
@Doug Loss

I'll sign up for that one.

Thanks Pete.  I'm trying to write something to draw people together, not to push them apart.
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2) It's none of your business.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #83 on: October 01, 2016, 10:16:52 pm »
Thanks Pete.  I'm trying to write something to draw people together, not to push them apart.

@Doug Loss

I  have absolutely no objection to any American citizen holding any beliefs they want to hold,as long as they don't try to make laws their personal/religious beliefs to control the thoughts or actions of other citizens.

We are either ALL free,or none of us are free.
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Offline bigheadfred

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2016, 02:49:07 pm »
@Doug Loss

I  have absolutely no objection to any American citizen holding any beliefs they want to hold,as long as they don't try to make laws their personal/religious beliefs to control the thoughts or actions of other citizens.

We are either ALL free,or none of us are free.

One of the things about "religious" belief is it gives a person a base for moral and ethical restraint. A code of conduct. How do you present something to a populace that includes any kind of restraint without someone screaming it infringes on their right to freedom from religion? One of the things that I am concerned with is Chimera research. The big push for transgenderism and/or people doing body modifications with the lifting of bans on certain genetic research may open a Pandora's Box of he-she-its. I've said this before. When Manbearpig becomes a reality does that mean we have to meekly accept (in my view) abominations as part of society? Your inclusive ALL gives me some pause.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline INVAR

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2016, 06:46:10 pm »
One of the things about "religious" belief is it gives a person a base for moral and ethical restraint. A code of conduct. How do you present something to a populace that includes any kind of restraint without someone screaming it infringes on their right to freedom from religion? One of the things that I am concerned with is Chimera research. The big push for transgenderism and/or people doing body modifications with the lifting of bans on certain genetic research may open a Pandora's Box of he-she-its. I've said this before. When Manbearpig becomes a reality does that mean we have to meekly accept (in my view) abominations as part of society? Your inclusive ALL gives me some pause.

That's today's definition of 'freedom', which at one time we would have called 'anarchy'.

It is NOT liberty.  It is not the kind of liberty our Founders intended for us to have.

A civil society can only exist so long as a moral foundational code binds a population together.  For us, it was biblically-based - but since that is now persona non-grata, we have everyone's definition of morality being whatever they think is right in their own eyes.  Anarchy.

Ancient Israel went down this path.  They rendered themselves extinct in very, very short order.

Which is what I expect our fate will be as well.

Adams rightly stated that our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people, and that it was wholly inadequate to govern any other kind of people.

Franklin noted that only a moral and religious people are capable of freedom.  As societies grow more corrupt and vicious - they will require oppressive controls just to keep order.

Well, without a common foundation of morality we all agree to - this experiment in liberty is already finished.

Sneaky would take exception to that statement because I assume he would automatically assume that means he has to covert to religion in order to be part of such a society.  Not the case at all.  Mark Levin, a Jew gives credit to our Christian heritage for establishing those liberties he cherishes, even if he disagrees with the faith.  I do not see why an Atheist cannot see the benefit in that system that they also are permitted to thrive in.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #86 on: October 02, 2016, 06:53:22 pm »
In a month we will have to determine the direction of the movement from here. Either Trump will be elected or not. If not, we are looking at an oppositional movement to Hillary and her policies. If Trump, holding his feet to the fire and praying he doesn't go off unhinged.

Two different courses of action hopefully, but we need to get beyond this election and start thinking about it.
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #87 on: October 02, 2016, 07:40:38 pm »
That's today's definition of 'freedom', which at one time we would have called 'anarchy'.

It is NOT liberty.  It is not the kind of liberty our Founders intended for us to have.<<

@INVAR

BullBush! You are just steamed that somebody somewhere is having a non-approved good time.

>>A civil society can only exist so long as a moral foundational code binds a population together.  For us, it was biblically-based -<<

Even MORE BullBush. Our Constitution is based on the Greek form of government,as well as some others,including at least one American Indian tribe. In case you didn't get the memo,neither ancient Greece or American Indians were big on Bible-Thumping.

>>  but since that is now persona non-grata, we have everyone's definition of morality being whatever they think is right in their own eyes.  Anarchy.<<

Yeah,all them damn people out there doing all that thinking stuff on their own,and nobody in charge!a KILL THEM!

>>Adams rightly stated that our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people<<

Did he define WHICH religion,or was he just playing to the people who hear what they want to hear?

>>Franklin noted that only a moral and religious people are capable of freedom. <<

ROFLMAO! Ben Franklin got laid more than Elvis.


 >>As societies grow more corrupt and vicious - they will require oppressive controls just to keep order.<<

Which is exactly were organized religion steps in. The provide the corruption and the viciousness,along with the oppression and control. It's who they are and what they do best.

Well, without a common foundation of morality we all agree to - this experiment in liberty is already finished.

Sneaky would take exception to that statement because I assume he would automatically assume that means he has to covert to religion in order to be part of such a society.  Not the case at all.  Mark Levin, a Jew gives credit to our Christian heritage for establishing those liberties he cherishes, even if he disagrees with the faith.  I do not see why an Atheist cannot see the benefit in that system that they also are permitted to thrive in.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 07:41:05 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #88 on: October 02, 2016, 07:50:07 pm »
In a month we will have to determine the direction of the movement from here. Either Trump will be elected or not. If not, we are looking at an oppositional movement to Hillary and her policies. If Trump, holding his feet to the fire and praying he doesn't go off unhinged.

Two different courses of action hopefully, but we need to get beyond this election and start thinking about it.

@Free Vulcan

When Bubbette! gets sworn in we are on the road to either slavery or revolution.

IF Donald Little Hands were to accidentally win,we are on the road to martial law and a special election because the man is clearly insane,and I just don't see the US military turning the nuclear launch codes over to anyone as unstable as he is. Which event would also likely read to martial law.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 08:08:53 pm by sneakypete »
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Offline INVAR

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #89 on: October 02, 2016, 07:56:53 pm »
BullBush! You are just steamed that somebody somewhere is having a non-approved good time.

Oh yes, it is so wrong for us to be disgusted and disapprove of perverts going into little girls bathrooms to peep because they declare themselves to feel like a little girl at that moment, or that people should be forced to violate their consciences to serve and celebrate behavior they find repugnant and abhorrent.


Which is exactly were organized religion steps in. The provide the corruption and the viciousness,along with the oppression and control. It's who they are and what they do best.


Thanks for making my entire point.

Without a common foundation of morality we all agree to - this experiment in liberty is already finished.

So finished it is, we have no common ground upon which to stand.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #90 on: October 02, 2016, 07:59:06 pm »
If Trump, holding his feet to the fire and praying he doesn't go off unhinged.


Trump supporters will support anything he does, it will be impossible to hold his liberal feet to the fire.

Offline Free Vulcan

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #91 on: October 02, 2016, 08:04:27 pm »
@Free Vulcan

When Bubbette! gets sworn in we are on the road to either slavery or revolution.

IF Donald Little Hands were to accidentally win,we are on the road to martial law and a special election because the man is clearly insane,and I just don't see the US military turning the nuclear launch codes over to anyone as unstable as he is. Which even would also likely read to martial law.

I'm hoping you're wrong, but thinking you may be right.  :beer:
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #92 on: October 03, 2016, 02:44:02 am »
@Smokin Joe @Doug Loss

I have relatives that would scream "You are an agent of SATAN!" at him for even suggesting such a thing. You just ain't religious unless you are willing to kill non-believers to please God.
There is something just plain strange about that attitude.

Jesus wants Christians to teach about Him, to win over folks who don't believe.
Well, Ya can't teach people anything if you kill 'em.
Quote

I once told a Holy Roller preacher that was babbling nonsense about "killing commies for Gawd!" that if there was a God and he was all-powerful,he could damn sure do his own bleeping killing. He pretty much became unhinged when I said that. He was sane enough he didn't get right in my face or personally threaten me,though.
Yep, and between The Flood, Soddom and Gommorah, the plague of the firstborn, and a few other cosmic parlor tricks, He has, and did a bang-up job of it.
(Like some kids' Daddys would say in an extreme fit of pique "I brought you into this world...")

Nothing about killing unbelievers in His name I saw in the New Testament, But there are a few things in the Old Testament, like that 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' thing in Exodus 18, but that also covered "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death", (so no stump training the ponies... :nometalk:)

Defending those of the faith as we all defend against terrorists is self-defense, and done because Islam isn't so much a religion as a pseudo-Theocratic Totalitarian government that is an equal opportunity attacker, with one Hell of a lot of political meddling going on for economic reasons. There may be battle lines drawn using religion as an excuse, but mostly it's about being part of the same extended tribe, and either killing off the competition or not being killed off. Lots of folks who aren't "Holy Rollers" either way end up along for the ride, whether that is defending, being defended, or out looking to be the one defended against.

Between Islam and Christianity, that feud goes back so far, it's tough to say who started it, but it continues, because Christians aren't part of their tribe. Some of my ancestors were wrapped up in the Crusades, and there has been plenty of blood spilt to go around.

Most of the Middle East looks like some hardscrabble land to me, so with the exception of controlling oil rights (recent), having dates for Saturday night (or any night, they grow on trees, there), and olive groves (old school oil rights), I reckon I can see why more people aren't fighting over it, and the religious importance of a few acres there becomes a source of conflict, but I wonder how much of that nowadays is having the 'rights' to lighten tourists' wallets and pilgrims' purses. Back when it affected overland trade routes more it may have had even greater economic importance, and even now, with pipelines proposed through there, we're back to the trade route thing, with the added bonus of oil and gas reserves to trade.

Someone threatens your living, you compete and fight for it, they want to kick you off your land, you fight 'em, they want to mess with your little kid, you and Mr. Pick Handle do a little 'splaining along with a couple other relatives who can keep their mouths shut and swing for the fences.
They try to kill you or yours, every home should have a shotgun, just be neat, pick up your hulls, and toss 'em in the reloading bin, and make sure you're the one who fills out the paperwork.

How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #93 on: October 03, 2016, 02:49:10 am »
Here's the beginning of a statement of principles and beliefs to present to those we'd like to convince they belong with us.  It's not nearly finished, but I think it's a place to start the discussion:

What We Believe

We believe that all people have certain rights, which are theirs from birth conception and which cannot be taken from them.  These include the right to live, and upon coming of age (insert number) the right to speak freely and without retribution, the right to own property and do with it anything they desire, the right to live their lives in the way they desire, the right to associate with others or to refrain from associating with others, the right to defend themselves against any attacks by others, and the right to defend others exercising the same rights when those others are attacked.  These rights are absolute; they can only be restrained when exercising them would interfere with the rights of others to exercise the same rights.
Suggested amendments, which have probably already been done.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Doug Loss

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #94 on: October 03, 2016, 10:27:38 am »
Suggested amendments, which have probably already been done.

I thought about adding those ideas into the first paragraph, but I was afraid it would complicate the basic statement too much.  I think they can be added a bit later as expansions on the core concepts, perhaps by expanding the meaning of "birth" to encompass the concept of "existence."  I wouldn't condition the right to speak freely with an age restriction, just with an addendum that the right may be conditioned by those responsible for the minor until maturity has been demonstrated. (Or something like that.)
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2) It's none of your business.
3) Leave me alone!

Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #95 on: October 03, 2016, 11:54:57 am »
There is something just plain strange about that attitude.

Jesus wants Christians to teach about Him, to win over folks who don't believe.
Well, Ya can't teach people anything if you kill 'em.Yep, and between The Flood, Soddom and Gommorah, the plague of the firstborn, and a few other cosmic parlor tricks, He has, and did a bang-up job of it.
(Like some kids' Daddys would say in an extreme fit of pique "I brought you into this world...")

Nothing about killing unbelievers in His name I saw in the New Testament, But there are a few things in the Old Testament, like that 'thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' thing in Exodus 18, but that also covered "Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death", (so no stump training the ponies... :nometalk:)

Defending those of the faith as we all defend against terrorists is self-defense, and done because Islam isn't so much a religion as a pseudo-Theocratic Totalitarian government that is an equal opportunity attacker, with one Hell of a lot of political meddling going on for economic reasons. There may be battle lines drawn using religion as an excuse, but mostly it's about being part of the same extended tribe, and either killing off the competition or not being killed off. Lots of folks who aren't "Holy Rollers" either way end up along for the ride, whether that is defending, being defended, or out looking to be the one defended against.

Between Islam and Christianity, that feud goes back so far, it's tough to say who started it, but it continues, because Christians aren't part of their tribe. Some of my ancestors were wrapped up in the Crusades, and there has been plenty of blood spilt to go around.

Most of the Middle East looks like some hardscrabble land to me, so with the exception of controlling oil rights (recent), having dates for Saturday night (or any night, they grow on trees, there), and olive groves (old school oil rights), I reckon I can see why more people aren't fighting over it, and the religious importance of a few acres there becomes a source of conflict, but I wonder how much of that nowadays is having the 'rights' to lighten tourists' wallets and pilgrims' purses. Back when it affected overland trade routes more it may have had even greater economic importance, and even now, with pipelines proposed through there, we're back to the trade route thing, with the added bonus of oil and gas reserves to trade.

Someone threatens your living, you compete and fight for it, they want to kick you off your land, you fight 'em, they want to mess with your little kid, you and Mr. Pick Handle do a little 'splaining along with a couple other relatives who can keep their mouths shut and swing for the fences.
They try to kill you or yours, every home should have a shotgun, just be neat, pick up your hulls, and toss 'em in the reloading bin, and make sure you're the one who fills out the paperwork.

@Smokin Joe
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Offline sneakypete

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #96 on: October 03, 2016, 12:07:21 pm »
Suggested amendments, which have probably already been done.

We believe that all people have certain rights, which are theirs from birth conception and which cannot be taken from them.


WRONG! We do not have and have NEVER had the "right" to be born. If your birth threatens the safety and/or security of the family,your family has the same right to self-defense as any other LIVING human being. Right up to the point a baby can be born and become a human,they are only potential humans and actual parasites.

People have been aborting or killing infants in hard times of no food/no safety and having to run  ever since the time of the cave man. They have had to do it in order to insure the survival of the living members of the family that are old enough to contribute to the family food supply and defense. Often times the infant would be smothered to keep it from crying and alerting enemies or wild animals of where the family was hiding. The usual cause was it was better for the infant to die quickly with a minimum of suffering instead of starving to death while dragging down the strength of the mother.

Granted,we live in more civilized times these days,and things have now turned upside down to the point where having a baby guarantees you "Free" food,housing,utilities,clothing,medical care,and even a check to live off of each month,and a awful lot of babies are born today that would never have been born in their mother and "likely candidate number ?" had to pay all the bills.

That does nothing to change the basic biological facts,though.

No matter how you spin it,a fetus is nothing but a POTENTIAL human.
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Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #97 on: October 03, 2016, 02:51:24 pm »
WRONG! We do not have and have NEVER had the "right" to be born. If your birth threatens the safety and/or security of the family,your family has the same right to self-defense as any other LIVING human being. Right up to the point a baby can be born and become a human,they are only potential humans and actual parasites.
I disagree. A republic, if you can keep it, life if you can hang on to it. There are no guarantees beyond birth, and in those few cases where the mother and infant would die, we have sanctioned terminating pregnancies (tubal and ectopic pregnancies, among others). But the one place designed to keep that developing baby safe should not be the slaughterhouse corral. There are enough who wish to raise it if the parents cannot.
As far as "potential humans and parasites", it can be argued there are millions living in their (grand)parents' basements and garage lofts who have yet to develop fully, living at the expense of the hosts. It is all too often a neotenic generation, nor is it limited to the most recent.
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People have been aborting or killing infants in hard times of no food/no safety and having to run  ever since the time of the cave man. They have had to do it in order to insure the survival of the living members of the family that are old enough to contribute to the family food supply and defense. Often times the infant would be smothered to keep it from crying and alerting enemies or wild animals of where the family was hiding. The usual cause was it was better for the infant to die quickly with a minimum of suffering instead of starving to death while dragging down the strength of the mother.
Yep, they have. But those were extreme cases and times, not the Untied States in the 20th or 21st century.
Historically, there have been a number of things people have been forgiven or which have been downplayed that occurred in survival situations, up to and including eating humans. We don't condone Jeff Daumer's 'Oriental Menu', either.
Even in the bible (No thump, just a few cites) Luke 21:23:
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But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Lamentations 4:10
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The hands of the pitiful women have boiled their own children; They were their food in the destruction of the daughter of my people.
Just for a couple of references.

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Granted,we live in more civilized times these days,and things have now turned upside down to the point where having a baby guarantees you "Free" food,housing,utilities,clothing,medical care,and even a check to live off of each month,and a awful lot of babies are born today that would never have been born in their mother and "likely candidate number ?" had to pay all the bills.

That does nothing to change the basic biological facts,though.

No matter how you spin it,a fetus is nothing but a POTENTIAL human.
Well, I have the opposite spin. We'll disagree. In terms of DNA: Species Homo sapiens. That makes it human. All that is at issue is the phase of development, and we see much older examples of the species that, for whatever reason, would not function autonomously well enough to survive long in extreme times. That doesn't mean we should sanction the removal of the infirm, the disabled, those who have cognitive difficulties from the population , any more than I think we should sanction the removal of humans who are not fully developed yet. Given time and the standard amount of nurturing they will develop into adult humans.
Any other species, given a sufficiency of provender, will protect its young, why shouldn't we?

The answer is not a biological one, although people have tried to sell it as one. The question is one of how to open a culture to the idea of eliminating those who refuse to be subject to power.
Start small, (literally), and work your way up. If the elimination of "unhealthy" babies in the womb is sanctioned, then the elimination of any inconvenient baby follows. After that we move on to the suffering, the dying, those who have cognitive deficits (beyond just being a Democrat), and the aged. The latter group is the real target. The latter group, once the elimination of the former groups is sanctioned, is vulnerable, from a strictly economic standpoint. Most people consume more in medical care in the last 6-12 months of their life than they do in the rest of it.

Those will be the arguments, "Remember Grandma/pa as they were." Don't let them suffer." (Which is what Obamacare will do, just to push for euthanasia.

But at the core of that, those old folks remember much freer times, they remember some semblance of Liberty, those mouthy old SOBs will pipe up, fearlessly, and tell some pup that that isn't the way this is supposed to work and educate everyone in the room. That's a serious pain in the ass of any wannabe totalitarian, and the easiest way to stop it is a nice, quiet, medical pogrom (for their own good, of course).

It isn't over resources, so that justification is out the window. It is over control, and the babies are just the first to be slaughtered on the totalitarian altar, sacrificed to the totalitarian god of power.

YMMV.
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #98 on: October 03, 2016, 03:24:20 pm »
You are just steamed that somebody somewhere is having a non-approved good time.
For some reason joyful is not the first word that comes to mind when I see your posts Pete. I'm glad my perception is clearly misguided.

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WRONG! We do not have and have NEVER had the "right" to be born. If your birth threatens the safety and/or security of the family,your family has the same right to self-defense as any other LIVING human being. Right up to the point a baby can be born and become a human,they are only potential humans and actual parasites.

Next time a woman is expecting ask her what she is expecting. From my point of view the minute their is new DNA created your are dealing with a new and separate life with it's own rights. It is certainly human and as it is doesn't have the mother's DNA you certainly can't claim it is part of the mother's body.
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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?
« Reply #99 on: October 03, 2016, 03:48:09 pm »
@Idaho_Cowboy

I keep hearing that crap repeated over and over by True Believers,but repeating it as dogma doesn't make it true.

SOME of the Founding Fathers were no doubt devout Christians. Anybody that makes the blanket claim that "THE Founding Fathers were devout Christians" is being disingenuous at best,or outright lying at worse.

Yeah,all the Founding Fathers played the politically correct word games they grew up playing in a era when it was illegal to not be a devout Christian,and the Churches had as much power as the Kings,but getting away from that was one big reason so many of them came to America. INCLUDING some of the non-mainstream religious sects were persecuted for having the "wrong" faith. Remember,these people grew in an era when letters and government documents all began with "In the year of our Lord",and you could have your property seized and be put in prison for denying the existence of God.

Even after they came to America the well-educated and well-off financially non-believers had to play that game with the public because so many of the public back there were so uneducated and ignorant that the Bible was the only book in the homes most of them grew up in. If they hadn't played that game with the ignorant,chances are there would have been no revolution and they would have been put in prison.

THAT is why we have Freedom of/from Religion as one of the bases that established our government. These were educated men who know of The Reformation,the causes of it,the people behind it,and the horrors committed in the name of God. They wanted to make sure that never happened here.
You must have had a funny history book. First of all the very ideas on which America was founded have their basis in faith it was a central part of their reasoning. The Pilgrims and the Puritans began by building a society upon the principles of the Bible.  John Locke's view of nature was grew from his faith.

Study the federalist and anti-federalist papers, these men did not simply tack on the word God as a page decoration. The writings of many of the most influential founders reveal a deep seated personal faith. George Washington, John Adams, Patrick Henry, Benjamin Rush, and even Thomas Jefferson's writings show they were men of great faith. It was the source of their vision, their bravery, and their wisdom.

You can use revisionist history to deny that, but it doesn't change the foundation America sits on. Furthermore no nation apart from that faith has ever achieved even a measure of the freedom America did. America is the bright spot of all of human history or in America the Government finally was removed from the relationship between God and man and men were free to worship God as they chose. That is the key difference of America and if you are honest about the Bible you know that God never gave Government the right to enforce Christianity. The persecution committed by the Catholic Church, the actions of Martin Luther, John Calvin, and any Christian who has used his religion to cover his sins were blatantly wrong; as wrong as the pharisees Jesus rebuked time and again. We must not judge God by the behavior men, not when God told us we live in a fallen world. There is a truth higher than the muck and the mire of this world and it is that we must seek to understand, to live, and as responsible citizens of a Republic to embody in our government as the founding fathers did. 

“The way I see it, every time a man gets up in the morning he starts his life over. Sure, the bills are there to pay, and the job is there to do, but you don't have to stay in a pattern. You can always start over, saddle a fresh horse and take another trail.” ― Louis L'Amour