What Happens To The Reagan/Constitutional Conservative Movement Now?

[sneakypete]

@sneakypete

We have a parasitic growth called the fedgov. How do you change something like that? Please throw some insight at this. Plus all the other smaller offshoot parasites that do nothing for the host but by leave of the parent parasite are destroying the host. Best thing is to get down and dirty and excise the parasite. And then burn it with fire. I wonder how you view yourself? Parasite. Or something else. If there is nothing out there then there is nothing in there either. So it is pointless to even begin to try. Unless you are a parasite. Maybe you view yourself as an isolated energy system. But I don't think science has found any of those yet. Everything interacts with everything else. I think it is that interaction that we need to define. So leave religion out and answer it from a scientific point of view. What kind of force and how much. What kind of energy and how much. etceterata

@bigheadfred

I am as tired of this circular argument as I am the circular firing squads. No one can reason with the committed religious types because religion isn't based on reason,it's based on faith and superstition. Fundie Islam is no more than a couple of baby steps away from every other fundie religion.

[Smokin Joe]

@sneakypete

We have a parasitic growth called the fedgov. How do you change something like that? Please throw some insight at this. Plus all the other smaller offshoot parasites that do nothing for the host but by leave of the parent parasite are destroying the host. Best thing is to get down and dirty and excise the parasite. And then burn it with fire. I wonder how you view yourself? Parasite. Or something else. If there is nothing out there then there is nothing in there either. So it is pointless to even begin to try. Unless you are a parasite. Maybe you view yourself as an isolated energy system. But I don't think science has found any of those yet. Everything interacts with everything else. I think it is that interaction that we need to define. So leave religion out and answer it from a scientific point of view. What kind of force and how much. What kind of energy and how much. etceterata

I'm up for a scientific viewpoint.

First off, a parasite isn't the same species as the host. It is another organism of another species, dependent on the host organism for nutrients. If the host dies, parasites commonly have the option of moving on. A tick, most beetles, mites, worms, insects all have the ability to find another host if they can. They are still a separate and genetically different organism from their host, often not of the same biological (taxonomic) Class, Order, or Family of the host.

Defining an immature form of the same organism, despite the variation in DNA still within the genus and species as a "parasite" doesn't fly. The quintessential question is one of when life begins. Not life as we, adults, know it. It'll be a long time before the little nipper pops the chute and starts making stock picks or drag racing on Saturday night, but it's still, given normal opportunities for development and barring accident, or incident, a developing human from conception.

"Fetus" describes a stage of development, just as "infant", "Toddler", "Child", "pre-teen" or "tween", "teenager", "young adult", "adult", "mature adult", "Middle aged", "Senior", "Elderly", "Old fart", "Crusty a**ed curmudgeon", "geezer", and a host of other euphemisms which place someone in an age group often associated with a developmental phase in human life. No one would argue that any of those other developmental stages are not human, so why pick on the little guy?

In essence, I see that as a way of rationalizing the destruction of what would have otherwise been a healthy (within acceptable parameters) human.

Of all those developmental stages, this is the one not capable of screaming its outrage and pain at being summarily destroyed. I guess that makes it easier to rationalize, and the fact that they won't be waiting on the porch or behind the screen door with a shotgun makes it less dangerous to destroy them.

While other species under stress (not enough food or illness) will spontaneously abort their young, as humans well might (miscarriages), no other species destroys its own young strictly for abstract reasons.

Some studies have found an increased risk of breast cancer with induced abortion, other organizations have a clear profit motive in burying that information, if that research is correct.

[DB]

I'm up for a scientific viewpoint.

First off, a parasite isn't the same species as the host. It is another organism of another species, dependent on the host organism for nutrients. If the host dies, parasites commonly have the option of moving on. A tick, most beetles, mites, worms, insects all have the ability to find another host if they can. They are still a separate and genetically different organism from their host, often not of the same biological (taxonomic) Class, Order, or Family of the host.

Defining an immature form of the same organism, despite the variation in DNA still within the genus and species as a "parasite" doesn't fly. The quintessential question is one of when life begins. Not life as we, adults, know it. It'll be a long time before the little nipper pops the chute and starts making stock picks or drag racing on Saturday night, but it's still, given normal opportunities for development and barring accident, or incident, a developing human from conception.

"Fetus" describes a stage of development, just as "infant", "Toddler", "Child", "pre-teen" or "tween", "teenager", "young adult", "adult", "mature adult", "Middle aged", "Senior", "Elderly", "Old fart", "Crusty a**ed curmudgeon", "geezer", and a host of other euphemisms which place someone in an age group often associated with a developmental phase in human life. No one would argue that any of those other developmental stages are not human, so why pick on the little guy?

In essence, I see that as a way of rationalizing the destruction of what would have otherwise been a healthy (within acceptable parameters) human.

Of all those developmental stages, this is the one not capable of screaming its outrage and pain at being summarily destroyed. I guess that makes it easier to rationalize, and the fact that they won't be waiting on the porch or behind the screen door with a shotgun makes it less dangerous to destroy them.

While other species under stress (not enough food or illness) will spontaneously abort their young, as humans well might (miscarriages), no other species destroys its own young strictly for abstract reasons.

Some studies have found an increased risk of breast cancer with induced abortion, other organizations have a clear profit motive in burying that information, if that research is correct.

Very well stated.

[LateForLunch]

I once was called to work at the last minute without being told what it was, and found myself at an annual meeting of Planned Parenthood at the Bonaventure Hotel in Los Angeles as part of their security. I overheard some of the discussions and saw their list of topics and was horrified (though I kept my feelings to myself). The main topic of every speaker (mostly doctors or hospital administrators) was how to increase the number of "procedures" i.e., generate more revenue and bring more "resources" to their efforts.

Make no mistake, they were discussing abortion of human babies ("procedures") as if they were discussing selling hamburgers or widgets. They spoke of marketing strategies, public relations, political aspects, "problematic" factions (pro-life groups) with the overall emphasis on reporting revenue and numbers bragging about increases in revenue, disparaging critics and projecting movement in their percentages of growth.

This was not a humanitarian enclave it was just business and the bottom line was clearly making more money by ending more lives of more babies. The magnitude of callousness and matter-of-fact nonchalance of the speakers/attendees left a lasting impression on me which I have carried with me to this day.

I am not easily offended by insensitivity. I'm fairly worldly, phlegmatic about businesses - even those which involve medical products and services - but the strange lack of concern with matters of humanity or terminating human lives in the millions reminded me of things I had only read about concerning Nazis, Imperial Japanese or fundie-muzz medical experiments or the ruminations of Margaret Sanger in some of her more unguarded moments. It also recalled some of the plans of SPECTRE villains' in James Bond movies. 

The only other things I have read which evoked the same sort of shocked revulsion were the descriptions of the activities of Satanic characters'in CS Lewis's classic Space Trilogy (Perelandra, Out of the Silent Planet, That Hideous Strength) There was a sense that these people regarded human beings with the same detached curiosity as a cat toying with a small dying animal. Utter and complete indifference to the suffering / loss of the object.

That sort of detachment and lack of empathy or affect is usually described by psychologists as "dissociative" and is a symptom of mental illness/characterological disorder.

They did not seem to me be normal human beings but rather a consortium of somber, avaricious, bright-but-morally-retarded psychopaths who had all escaped from the same mental hospital and set up a monstrously successful business together. The very, very lucrative Business of Death.

[sneakypete]

I'm up for a scientific viewpoint.

@Smokin Joe

No,you're not. What you are up for is selling your agenda. It may be heartfelt on your part,but it is still an agenda that will NEVER recognize any "uncomfortable" truth. NOT really criticizing you for that BECAUSE you are expressing your heartfelt beliefs.

I will add that once I respond to the posts on this thread today that were posted before this response,so you should all be aware that before you go giving each other "high 5's" to celebrate "defeating the heaten",you didn't.

Nor did I defeat you. My purpose was to establish there is more than one "truth",and "truths" are often claimed because of personal biases. I have been having this and similar argument with True Believers for over 50 years now,and the one thing I know is that NONE of you are ever going to admit there is even the tiniest possibility you are wrong because you function on faith,and faith does not allow questioning.

>>First off, a parasite isn't the same species as the host.<<

Neither is a fetus. A fetus can't multiply and it can't survive the death of the host and move to another host.

End of discussion as far as I am concerned.

[Smokin Joe]

I once worked at an annual meeting of Planned Parenthood as part of the security. I overheard some of the discussions and saw their list of topics - I was horrified. The main topic of every speaker (mostly doctors or hospital administrators) was how to increase the number of "procedures" i.e., generate more revenue and bring more "resources" to their efforts.

Make no mistake, they were discussing abortion of human babies as if they were discussing selling  hamburgers or widgets. They spoke of marketing strategies, public relations, political aspects, "problematic" factions (pro-life groups) with the overall emphasis on reporting revenue and numbers bragging about increases, disparaging critics and projecting movement in their percentages of growth.

This was not a humanitarian enclave it was just business and the bottom line was clearly making more money by ending more lives of more babies. The magnitude of callousness and matter-of-fact nonchalance of the speakers attendees left a lasting impression on me which I have carried with me to this day.
I am not easily offended -  fairly worldly, phlegmatic about businesses - even those which involve medical products and services - but the insensitivity of and strange lack of concern with matters of humanity or terminating human life reminded me of things I had only read about concerning Nazi, Imperial Japanese or fundie-muzz medical experiments on human beings.

The only other things I have read which evoke the same sort of shocked revulsion in me were the descriptions of some of the Satanic characters' activities in CS Lewis's Space Trilogy. There was a sense that these people regarded human beings with the same detached curiosity as a cat toying with a lizard it was slowly killing.

They did not seem to me be normal human beings but rather a consortium of somber, avaricious, bright-but- morally-retarded psychopaths who had all escaped from the same mental hospital and set up a monstrously successful business together.

Keep in mind, though that this will not be the end for those people, it is to them just an industry, not a slaughter of "lumps of tissue" on an industrial scale. (We're all just "lumps of tissue", just bigger and generally more autonomous).

Any industry reaches a point where it starts looking for new products, new markets to branch into.

So who is next?

With State Control of medical resources, expense of treatment will be a factor.

Those in a 'persistent vegetative state'?
Those who don't have a 'just so' genetic profile?
Who carry recessive genes which may be harmful?
Those with mental problems? (So easy to claim someone who thinks the Government is out to eliminate them is 'nuts' and eliminate them...)
Cognitive deficits?

Is the big 'find out who you are', swab yourself and get in the genetic database movement just a matter of "finding out who you are"? (Most folks have a pretty good idea who their parents are, and their parents knew their parents, etc.--maybe some records, but DNA?)

How about those old folks? So expensive....
Or the people who don't have the right BMI?
How will the next batch be picked  to run through the shredder? and the next?

[Smokin Joe]

It ain't over until it's over.

In biology/ecology, parasitism is a non-mutual symbiotic relationship between species, where one species, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the other, the host.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism

Next you are going to tell me a puppy isn't the same species as a dog because it can't reproduce (yet). The larval forms of a species are still members of their respective species, Pete. No way around it.

Now we can be done discussing it if you want to.

[sneakypete]

It ain't over until it's over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism

Next you are going to tell me a puppy isn't the same species as a dog because it can't reproduce (yet). The larval forms of a species are still members of their respective species, Pete. No way around it.

Now we can be done discussing it if you want to.

@Smoking Joe

No,I am going to tell you that you are full of shit with a  head as thick as a brick because you refuse to see what you are programed to not see.

A puppy IS a dog,just like a child is a human. the puppy is a puppy because it was born to a dog,just like a child is a human because it was born to a human.

I know you are a product of brain washing,but you should be able to follow something that simple and keep it in mind.

I was going to let this go,but you just HAD to come back for a  cheap shot with the same  lame-ass argument I had already shot down. This means you are either being purposely deceptive,or you are too stupid to understand simple words. I leave it to you to decide.

[INVAR]

Exactly. Close-minded people who are unwilling to allow others to have their own thoughts. Dogmatic dogs.

No one is denying you your thoughts in this discussion, or your expression of them.  You have done so pretty vehemently.  Your hostility of faith and those who hold it, is noted.

What you have provided, is an illustration of why Conservatism, the Republic and the liberty that was enshrined for us is no longer possible in this country - and our fate into tyranny and ruin are sealed.

We do not have a common foundation upon which to stand.

[LateForLunch]

It ain't over until it's over. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism

Next you are going to tell me a puppy isn't the same species as a dog because it can't reproduce (yet). The larval forms of a species are still members of their respective species, Pete. No way around it.

Now we can be done discussing it if you want to.

Point of general information concerning domesticated dogs. Domesticated dog breeds derived by human selection from wild dogs (dingos, wolves, coyotes, etc) which had traits more associated with younger ones (namely greater tolerance for other species, docility, softer fur, larger eyes, amiability in general, normally  found in puppies / younger members of those species). These qualities are lumped generally into the group of attributes known as chronomorphic (having to do with qualities which appear at specific times in development). Over time, the chronomorphic traits seen in young animals became the dominant traits of the newly-bred varieties through adulthood. 

Over the long centuries, in addition to chronomorphic docility, ectomorphic qualities (physical appearance only) were selected and new breeds emerged from that process. Unfortunately for some of those varieties, when humans were selecting the genetics they preferred, they also inadvertently selected recessive genetic problems like weak hips (in some hounds and retrievers) prone to complete failure later in life, and other problems (the nervous jitters of smaller breeds).

[bigheadfred]

@Smokin Joe  @LateForLunch  @sneakypete  @INVAR  @Doug Loss

I had something running around in my head last night and I actually got up and wrote it down so I wouldn't forget it. There have been scientific studies showing that prayer can be measured as having a positive effect. Call it intelligent directed energy. From there I can deduce a superior intelligence directing energy that results in me. That being said Trump and Sanders have tapped into an energy or maybe an angry nerve. Conservatism should do the same thing. Approach it from the standpoint of positive directed energy. Whether that can be done intelligently is open to question. Think of Pokemon Go. A fad that gets people off and moving. I am at work so maybe later. Thought I would throw the idea out there.

Zero Point. My political energy at a ground state. I was going to abstain. But now I am voting third party. Intelligent directed positive energy.

See ya luv ya bye

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Are you claiming she recognized you? How do you know it was a wave,and not a nerve spasm. I blinked my eyes a few moments ago. Does that mean I am flirting with you?

I am saying it was 100% clear what she was a separate human, not a parasitic growth. Moving on her own. 

Correct me if I am wrong,but doesn't a miscarriage qualify as a birth?

In this case you would be wrong, before a certain number of weeks it isn't counted as a stillbirth. You keeping shifting the goal posts tell me how unreasonable I am and yet you have yet to put forth a consistent ability to tell when your fetus with 100% human DNA truly becomes a human. You have tried to claim a baby in the woman isn't a baby, but now you want to consent that the same baby if born premature and hooked up to machines that mimic the functions of the womb is a baby. What changes and when does it change? 

That is NOT what I said and you can't find a post of mine claiming I did say it.

Right here @sneakypete
Once it reached the point where it didn't need the device to circulate blood,breathe,etc,etc,etc,yes,they would. Prior to that they are nothing more than growths that have the potential to be human.

How else is that to be interpreted? 

So,she was born and THEN she was hooked up to tubes,and now you are arguing that I am wrong BECAUSE SHE WAS BORN and was then hooked up to tubes?

So what happens to the Baby that is becomes human? What are you trying to claim?

It is a waste of time for us to try to discuss this any further. Your mind is locked on your position and nothing will ever be able to convince you to look at the evidence because you are approaching it entirely from an emotional POV. Hell,you can't even recognize what the term "parasitic growth" means because of  your biases. Your knee jerks,and right away you are upset because you see it as a negative thing,when it is neither negative or positive. It is just a clinical term that means "dependent on the host". Nothing more and nothing less. Yet you focus on that because your personal history,quite naturally,gives you a personal emotional bias that nothing can overpower.

If you are interested in evidence your supposed inhuman parasitic growth can feel pain at only 8 weeks of age.
http://www.lifenews.com/2015/05/12/expert-told-congress-unborn-babies-can-feel-pain-starting-at-8-weeks/

Don't you find it interesting that planned parenthood finds these parasitic growth's human enough to be worth collecting and selling their organs?

Hundreds of millions of babies grew into healthy adults without ever breast-feeding even once. They also do their own breathing,eliminate their own wastes,and can usually see and hear the things around them. They do none of this in the womb,and you know it.

You've already been corrected on mis-using the definition of parasite and species. I think you should find a copy of what to expect when you are expecting, you will find that babies are far active in the womb than you may have imaged. Not only are their brains highly devolved, they can hear and will jump at and can turn towards sounds. They move independently. Their lungs breath in amniotic fluid to strengthen themselves and many other organs are active.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

My purpose was to establish there is more than one "truth",and "truths" are often claimed because of personal biases. I have been having this and similar argument with True Believers for over 50 years now,and the one thing I know is that NONE of you are ever going to admit there is even the tiniest possibility you are wrong because you function on faith,and faith does not allow questioning.

@sneakypete  The truth isn't a matter of opinion it simply is.

truth
tro͞oTH/
noun

that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality.

We can't change the truth by arguing or discussion or even reasoning, we can only discover the truth. Two and Two make four. A baby is a human life from conception from the same moment it gets the unique DNA code he or she will carry for the rest of their lives, the same species as it's mother and father. We can't change that, I may be passionate in my defense of the unborn, but the creation of a new human life is a scientific observable phenomenon.

Many folks have tried to live a different truth throughout history and it has not served them well. Kipling says it so well in The God's of the Copy Book Headings:

S I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Keep in mind, though that this will not be the end for those people, it is to them just an industry, not a slaughter of "lumps of tissue" on an industrial scale. (We're all just "lumps of tissue", just bigger and generally more autonomous).

Any industry reaches a point where it starts looking for new products, new markets to branch into.

So who is next?

With State Control of medical resources, expense of treatment will be a factor.

Those in a 'persistent vegetative state'?
Those who don't have a 'just so' genetic profile?
Who carry recessive genes which may be harmful?
Those with mental problems? (So easy to claim someone who thinks the Government is out to eliminate them is 'nuts' and eliminate them...)
Cognitive deficits?

Is the big 'find out who you are', swab yourself and get in the genetic database movement just a matter of "finding out who you are"? (Most folks have a pretty good idea who their parents are, and their parents knew their parents, etc.--maybe some records, but DNA?)

How about those old folks? So expensive....
Or the people who don't have the right BMI?
How will the next batch be picked  to run through the shredder? and the next?

Making the claim that the victims aren't human has been the mark of a great many genocides.

[Smokin Joe]

@Smoking Joe

No,I am going to tell you that you are full of shit with a  head as thick as a brick because you refuse to see what you are programed to not see.

A puppy IS a dog,just like a child is a human. the puppy is a puppy because it was born to a dog,just like a child is a human because it was born to a human.

I know you are a product of brain washing,but you should be able to follow something that simple and keep it in mind.

I was going to let this go,but you just HAD to come back for a  cheap shot with the same  lame-ass argument I had already shot down. This means you are either being purposely deceptive,or you are too stupid to understand simple words. I leave it to you to decide.

Three letters, pete: DNA Like you said, words mean something. A parasite, by definition is a different species. That developing baby is the same species as the mother. We're mammals, and that's how our offspring develop.

Like I said, we're going to disagree. All those science classes programmed me to be a scientist. It is what it is, and allowed to continue to develop, you get an autonomous human. That takes a decade or more, but you won't get anything else, not a monkey, not a dog, not the blob, but a human.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@bigheadfred

I am as tired of this circular argument as I am the circular firing squads. No one can reason with the committed religious types because religion isn't based on reason,it's based on faith and superstition. Fundie Islam is no more than a couple of baby steps away from every other fundie religion.

Not as tired as I am of this watching the sacrifice of million of babies to the God's of convenience and greed and then to see those actions justified and encouraged by our wicked society. 

[Idaho_Cowboy]

@sneakypete
How viable are any of us outside the protective womb of society and civilization? How long would people live apart from doctors and abundant nutritious food. You might find a lot of folks aren't any more viable away from civilization than a baby is out of womb or away from the bottle or the breast.

Even climate, take away our technology that helps keep us cool and warm. How viable are any of us alone in the arctic or the desert? Does that make us any less human are we mere parasites feeding off of this earth?

Has the definition of human life changed as the technology has changed the age at which we are viable either older or younger?

[bigheadfred]

@bigheadfred

I am as tired of this circular argument as I am the circular firing squads. No one can reason with the committed religious types because religion isn't based on reason,it's based on faith and superstition. Fundie Islam is no more than a couple of baby steps away from every other fundie religion.

I got trounced for my views on islam. I formed my opinion in 1983. And got the heat for my view of organized religion as a lie. But I still believe in a higher power--intelligence. It makes sense to me. Exploitation of that is wrong. Anyways, I still would like to see some consensus on how one should comport oneself in the face of the onslaught against what I consider normal. But after the big pissing match I suppose this thread is dead.

[Smokin Joe]

I got trounced for my views on islam. I formed my opinion in 1983. And got the heat for my view of organized religion as a lie. But I still believe in a higher power--intelligence. It makes sense to me. Exploitation of that is wrong. Anyways, I still would like to see some consensus on how one should comport oneself in the face of the onslaught against what I consider normal. But after the big pissing match I suppose this thread is dead.

Nah. It isn't dead. I got my attitude about Islam in the early 90s working with an Algerian. It was an eye opener. There is no "radical" islam, it all believes the same stuff. Just some are more motivated to act on it than others. My family has been Roman Catholic for over a thousand years, but I will still listen to what the Pope says and disagree if I think he's wrong. Maybe I'm just a 'bad' Catholic. While The Church doesn't have a squeaky clean history (understatement alert), that was the doings of people, motivated by whatever motivated them, but hardly in keeping with the teachings of Jesus, and that basically goes for any denomination. Anything gets too organized, too big in that sense becomes a magnet for those who seek power, prestige, and wealth or the trimmings thereof. That makes it tough to not become an abusive force, and that it has not been worse is the amazing part.
Get back to the basics, though and realize when the time comes, our relationship with The Almighty is nothing but personal, and the emphasis changes. I alone am responsible for my actions and beliefs, and the effects those have. No one else, can't hide behind a catechism, it's on me.

As for the rest, demand I believe as you do under pain of death, and we're gonna have a problem--especially if I don't believe that way. Threats of lethal force should be met in kind, and Islam is just such a threat, not just to Christians, but anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

Get back to the basics, though and realize when the time comes, our relationship with The Almighty is nothing but personal, and the emphasis changes. I alone am responsible for my actions and beliefs, and the effects those have. No one else, can't hide behind a catechism, it's on me.

Amen.