Author Topic: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment  (Read 7424 times)

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Offline Just_Victor

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2016, 05:24:54 pm »
It's possible that one of us misunderstood the article. It states clearly that the primary uses of remanufactured steel were rebar for construction, barrels, lower-quality steel plates and automobile fenders. It made no mention of use in automobile frames / bodies other than fenders.

OK, I read it again.  Here is the wiki article in it's entirety.  The section I think you're referring to is in the third paragraph where it refers to steel from the Electronic Arc Furnace production using 100% scrap.  The issue though is about the malleability of the final product due to the presence of trace impurities that cannot be removed.  So they don't use EAF material in cold work applications, like cold stamped automobile fenders.  But realize the "typical" usage is by no means absolute.  The engineer will design the product and spec a material that meets the requirements.  But regardless, both the BOS and EAF processes use scrap material in production.

Description

In the United States, steel containers, cans, automobiles, appliances, and construction materials contribute the greatest weight of recycled materials. For example, in 2008, more than 97% of structural steel and 106% of automobiles were recycled, comparing the current steel consumption for each industry with the amount of recycled steel being produced (the late 2000s recession and the associated sharp decline in automobile production in the US explains the over-100% calculation).[2] A typical appliance is about 75% steel by weight[3] and automobiles are about 65% steel and iron.[4]

The steel industry has been actively recycling for more than 150 years, in large part because it is economically advantageous to do so. It is cheaper to recycle steel than to mine iron ore and manipulate it through the production process to form new steel. Steel does not lose any of its inherent physical properties during the recycling process, and has drastically reduced energy and material requirements compared with refinement from iron ore. The energy saved by recycling reduces the annual energy consumption of the industry by about 75%, which is enough to power eighteen million homes for one year.[5] According to the International Resource Panel's Metal Stocks in Society report, the per capita stock of steel in use in Australia, Canada, the European Union EU15, Norway, Switzerland, Japan, New Zealand and the US combined is 7,085 kilograms (15,620 lb) (about 860 million people in 2005).

Basic oxygen steelmaking (BOS) uses 25–35% recycled steel to make new steel. BOS steel usually contains lower concentrations of residual elements such as copper, nickel and molybdenum and is therefore more malleable than electric arc furnace (EAF) steel and is often used to make automotive fenders, tin cans, industrial drums or any product with a large degree of cold working. EAF steelmaking uses almost 100% recycled steel. This steel contains greater concentrations of residual elements that cannot be removed through the application of oxygen and lime. It is used to make structural beams, plates, reinforcing bar and other products that require little cold working.[6] Downcycling of steel by hard-to-separate impurities such as copper or tin can only be prevented by well-aimed scrap selection or dilution by pure steel.[7] Recycling one metric ton (1,000 kilograms) of steel saves 1.1 metric tons of iron ore, 630 kilograms of coal, and 55 kilograms of limestone.[8]

Types of scrap used in steelmaking
Heavy melting steel – Industrial or commercial scrap steel greater than 6mm thick, such as plates, beams, columns, channels; may also include scrap machinery or implements or certain metal stampings
Old car bodies – Vehicles with or without interiors and their original wheels
Cast iron – Cast iron bathtubs, machinery, pipe and engine blocks
Pressing steel – Domestic scrap metal up to approx. 6mm thick. Examples - White goods (fridges, washing machines, etc.), roofing iron, water heaters, water tanks and sheet metal offcuts
Re-inforcing bars or mesh – Used in the construction industry within concrete structures
Turnings – Remains of drilling or shaping steels. Also known as "borings" or "swarf"
Manganese steel – Non magnetic, hardened steel used in the mining industry, cement mixers, rock crushers, and other high impact and abrasive environments.
Rails – Rail or tram tracks[9]

If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #51 on: October 12, 2016, 09:11:29 pm »
O.K. but it's still not clear what the ratio of steel that is made from raw mined materials and steel made from recycled material actually is for automobile manufacturing.   
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Offline Just_Victor

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2016, 12:08:52 pm »
O.K. but it's still not clear what the ratio of steel that is made from raw mined materials and steel made from recycled material actually is for automobile manufacturing.   
Most if not all steel produced today contains some recycled content.  It is in the mill's financial interest to charge the furnace with scrap material.  My engineering alloys textbook from 1981 cites the same 30% BOP and 100% EAF numbers for recycled material as your wiki article.  They've been recycling steel for a long time.

Follow me here on something though:

Third sentence, second paragraph of your wiki article: "Steel does not lose any of its inherent physical properties during the recycling process, and has drastically reduced energy and material requirements compared with refinement from iron ore."

Recycled steel is not "lower quality."  The source article for the statement, "This steel contains greater concentrations of residual elements, ..." that you are using to claim that recycled steel is lower quality, and therefor not suitable for the auto industry, is at least 7 years old (source cited in 2009), and the link ( https://www3.epa.gov/epawaste/conserve/materials/steel.htm ) no longer works.  I can't confirm anything from the original article.  But, I suspect the source info is even older, 10 years or more.

The reason copper, nickel, and molybdenum end up in recycled steel, is those elements are used for alloying in many steels (the HSLA steels I mentioned in a previous post). You've probably heard of "chomoly" steel.  That is the AISI 4100 series HSLA, alloyed with chromium and molybdenum.  These steels are hard to distinguish from plain carbon without a chemical/spectrographic analysis, so they get lumped in with other scrap material as simply steel.  But the presence of these elements actually produces a higher quality steel.  The HSLAs are more expensive.  But as is with all alloys, there is a trade off, in this case ductility is lost in favor of increased strength.  But the loss of ductility (malleability) means that the forming processes are limited.  You're going to have to heat less ductile materials, and that carries a cost.  Cold formed is cheaper.  Hence, that's what the auto industry uses, and less ductile materials aren't suitable.

But enter a new(ish) technology; the handheld alloy analyzer.  http://alloytester.com/xrf-alloy-analyzers

I first saw one of these ~7-8 years ago.  Since then every scrap yard I know of is using these to pull out higher value alloys to resell at a better price.  These devices pay for themselves in a few weeks of use at any scrapyard.  All scrap yards segregate specific alloys today.

Anyway, the reason for the roundabout post is to point out that I suspect the recycled material is much better controlled today by segregating the specific alloys.  I'd bet that the problem as cited no longer even exists.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 12:46:40 pm by Just_Victor »
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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2016, 07:13:43 pm »
Off the topic of efficiency, but I think it's fun to listen to (and watch  :laugh:) the Isle of Man TT Zero electric motorcycle race.  Skip to 20 seconds in for the start...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlxZs2-gICc

Lap average 119.279 mph.

How they go by nearly silently...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5O0nL32YxU
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Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2016, 07:51:32 pm »
Isle of Man.  Greatest flag in the world.  My wife bought me one for my desk at work.  We're not from there or anything, we just think it's a great flag:

For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
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Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2016, 08:21:21 pm »
Anyway, the reason for the roundabout post is to point out that I suspect the recycled material is much better controlled today by segregating the specific alloys.  I'd bet that the problem as cited no longer even exists.

That's all very interesting (no sarcasm intended at all). Thanks for the information.

To address one of the central points about how "green" cars are not viable solutions to reducing pollution - I would suspect that the pollutant levels for manufacturing steel, regardless of the percentages of recycled source elements, are still very high. The volume of solid particulate material released into the environment is supposedly very high for steel fabrication - enough so that driving an older car as long as possible instead of buying a new one (regardless of the "greenness" factor in the kind of vehicle) is the best way to reduce the most pestiferous type of pollution over time.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 04:32:34 pm by LateForLunch »
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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2016, 03:32:12 pm »
Isle of Man.  Greatest flag in the world.  My wife bought me one for my desk at work.  We're not from there or anything, we just think it's a great flag:



@Cyber Liberty

I'd totally forgotten about that... Thanks for reminding me of it!

In my youth, I was very interested in heraldry, and it was fun to see the puns in arms of various families.  But often, one had to know foreign or archaic languages to get them.  I'm not sure whether this one would be a pun in Manx or what...I've always meant to look into it, and now I'll have to.  Thanks again! 
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“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline Cyber Liberty

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #57 on: October 14, 2016, 06:55:09 pm »
@Cyber Liberty

I'd totally forgotten about that... Thanks for reminding me of it!

In my youth, I was very interested in heraldry, and it was fun to see the puns in arms of various families.  But often, one had to know foreign or archaic languages to get them.  I'm not sure whether this one would be a pun in Manx or what...I've always meant to look into it, and now I'll have to.  Thanks again!

I was amazed to learn the tail-less jumping cats came from there.  So did the Bee Gees, and Rick Wakeman still lives there.
For unvaccinated, we are looking at a winter of severe illness and death — if you’re unvaccinated — for themselves, their families, and the hospitals they’ll soon overwhelm. Sloe Joe Biteme 12/16
I will NOT comply.
 
Castillo del Cyber Autonomous Zone ~~~~~>                          :dontfeed:

Offline dfwgator

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #58 on: October 14, 2016, 06:56:36 pm »
I was amazed to learn the tail-less jumping cats came from there.  So did the Bee Gees, and Rick Wakeman still lives there.

And Happy Jack.

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #59 on: October 14, 2016, 09:09:33 pm »
And Happy Jack.

Isle of MAN??? Sex-ISS!!!
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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2016, 05:00:47 am »
are using to claim that recycled steel is lower quality, and therefor not suitable for the auto industry, is at least 7 years old (source cited in 2009), and the link ( https://www3.epa.gov/epawaste/conserve/materials/steel.htm ) no longer works.

Try here.
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn

Offline LateForLunch

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2016, 01:45:10 am »
Try here.

Thanks!! That's very helpful concerning percentages of recycled steel in automotive bodies. I now realize I'd seen that page before but forgot to bookmark it!! 

The other issue of pollutants (solid particulates, heavy metals, sulfur and other air/water-borne toxins) which are created in the steel manufacturing process is central to this discussion. Does the inclusion of a relatively small percentage of recycled steel in the process SIGNIFICANTLY reduce total pollution in the manufacturing process? I'll try to get some exact numbers (if the ecoparanoids haven't buried the data somehow to prevent the truth from being told) but I'd be willing to guess that the answer is "no".

The blast furnaces that melt the steel use up enormous amounts of fuel (coal?) which emits pollutants, as does the water-cooling, the rinsing and burnishing phases, the hot/cold forging stages, the cutting phase, final shaping/treatment phase (for steel which gets additional shaping/polishing/coating) and of course the chroming phase.  All of that makes the pollution created by any newly-manufactured "green" vehicle much, much greater than the amount "saved" by the "green" aspects of the design of the motor.

Therefore, the best way for anyone who wants to significantly reduce the greater amounts of the most significant pollution from automobiles to do it, is to drive the same car for ten years or more before buying a new one. This even includes older cars that are supposedly "gas guzzlers" because relatively little solid-particulate or heavy-metal pollution is generated by such vehicles even when averaged over their entire lifetime in comparison to the massive amounts created in the steel fabrication process.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 01:54:59 am by LateForLunch »
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Offline Just_Victor

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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2016, 11:19:32 am »
Try here.

Stupid government doesn't source or date any of the info.  Thanks for finding the web page though.


Looks like Wiki needs to correct their article.  The malleability issue doesn't appear in the EPA web page.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2016, 11:35:32 am by Just_Victor »
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Re: Little Green Lies: Why Electric Cars Won’t Save the Environment
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2016, 09:07:34 pm »
Stupid government doesn't source or date any of the info.  Thanks for finding the web page though.

You're welcome.

I've enjoyed the discussion here.
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“In the outside world, I'm a simple geologist. But in here .... I am Falcor, Defender of the Alliance” --Randy Marsh

“The most effectual means of being secure against pain is to retire within ourselves, and to suffice for our own happiness.” -- Thomas Jefferson

“He's so dumb he thinks a Mexican border pays rent.” --Foghorn Leghorn