Author Topic: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights  (Read 24276 times)

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Online Free Vulcan

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2016, 07:23:29 pm »
When the inevitable collapse happens and America makes what happened with Weimar look like a picnic at the beach, you will learn firsthand how thin the veneer of civilization really is.

The fissures of multi-division and blame are already present and working on the carcass of the nation.

When there is real pain - vengeance will be sought and those stirring up the desperate will be able to do things we only read about happening in the Middle East and parts of Europe.

And that is not even taking into consideration what the enemies now amongst us are going to do.

And that is why I advocate conservatives, those that haven't been swindled by Trump, to get active in state politics. We all pretty much agree here that DC politically is baked and can't be changed. It is a waste of time to even worry about it.

It is time to prepare our states, those of us who live in ones that are still basically conservative, to prepare for that day that is coming quickly.
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Offline roamer_1

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2016, 07:47:17 pm »
It is time to prepare our states, those of us who live in ones that are still basically conservative, to prepare for that day that is coming quickly.

And inevitably...

Good post.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2016, 07:52:55 pm »
And inevitably...

Good post.

Agreed.

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2016, 08:22:41 pm »
For whatever it's worth, it is my humble opinion that very little of what has thus far been posted on this thread entitled "States Rights"  has anything at all to do with that subject!
It's a spin off from another thread. You know how those spin off shows go. :laugh:
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Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2016, 09:54:03 pm »
For whatever it's worth, it is my humble opinion that very little of what has thus far been posted on this thread entitled "States Rights"  has anything at all to do with that subject!

You think not?

A most basic right of a Sovereign State is Self-Determination.  Which alliances/federations (such as the Union) it enters into at will AND MAY EXIT AT WILL.

This is our last exit off this Highway to Hell before we ride over the cliff.

Offline INVAR

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2016, 10:02:52 pm »
For whatever it's worth, it is my humble opinion that very little of what has thus far been posted on this thread entitled "States Rights"  has anything at all to do with that subject!

It's a mis-titled thread that the mods created when stripping Don-O's original post of the discussion that centered on the idea of secession.

It is already self-evident that the idea of States' Rights no longer actually exists or applies in practice.  The federal Beast can and will impose itself in issues it has no authority to do so; i.e.: nationalizing the police forces of the country.  Camel's nose under the tent and all that having been accomplished already.

It should be better entitled: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights.


edit: well since ether started with my comment to begin this thread, I found out I can actually change the title.  Which I did.

Now we can discuss the whole gamut of subjects and ideas surrounding the idea of 'now what' to burgeoning tyranny.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 10:20:11 pm by INVAR »
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...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2016, 10:41:31 pm »
You are NEVER going to be able to put a stop to any of that, or even slow it down via civil means.

Period.

History teaches that tyrants and a ruling class will NEVER yield their power and wealth streams from those they yank it from without the threat and use of force.  The lawless are not going to yield to new laws they already exempt themselves from.  They will also never yield to a people demanding they surrender their power and theft industry via the institutions they have corrupted.

Few to none are willing to risk what would be necessary to even amount to the 3% that actively engaged and resisted the Crown.

You are also forgetting that liberty cannot exist without the moral and religious foundations that established us.  Since that no longer exists in this culture - and this people are no longer governed by God, the idea of restraining the tyranny of men is ridiculous.  Only when a people are spiritually ready will God grant such efforts of liberty the victory after much hardship and bloodshed.

History teaches that a people who have become what we now are, WANT slavery.  They WANT the 'security' of dependence.  A people who make government their god cannot and will not be capable of freedom.

Speaking directly to the tyranny most willingly suffer and refuse to call tyranny, the majority of those even looking at the reality of our situation are counting the costs and not willing to risk what would be necessary to rectify it.  Lives, fortunes and sacred honor things.   I cannot even get any traction among likeminded folks to agree to simply refuse to comply with the Beast.  They say they gotta eat and pay the bills and cannot risk punitive acts for refusing to go along.

If Christians themselves would not stand up against encroachments of evil upon their free exercise of faith - why would we think they would stand up and risk their lives to resist what society and their tyrannical government impose on them?  How many of them are going to throw Romans 13 in your face for even discussing this subject?

Let us face the reality of the ground now before us.  We're going the way of Rome and every other Republic that fell. You cannot reverse that, despite the screaming of our normalcy biases against accepting what is staring at us in the face.  Defeatist?  Not if you want to survive, and that is what we really need to focus a remnant to get their minds wired to do.

We need to survive the consequences this government and people have already sown against us.  Consequences that have yet to be experienced by us, before we can begin the hard work of reeducating a morally degenerate and selfish people to do as you advocate.  But we are not going to just magically vote to return ourselves to what was already lost.

"But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever. When the People once surrender their share in the Legislature, and their Right of defending the Limitations upon the Government, and of resisting every Encroachment upon them, they can never regain it." - John Adams, July 7,  1777

That statement by Adams is not only historically accurate - it is biblically accurate as well.

What is before us is to resist if we would retain what liberty this people and their government seek to abolish.  AND then we need to explain in very painful language, the reasons we ended up where we have. 

You cannot move to righteousness and liberty without repentance, and a people who see nothing wrong with how we got here, are not capable of becoming the vanguards of whatever liberty we win for our posterity.

I don't disagree with many of the facts as you lay them out; but I disagree with the conclusions.  As well, I resist that passivity, violently.

We are going the way Argentina and Chile and Cuba and Ethiopia and Germany and Italy and dozens of other nation-states have gone in the past.  We KNOW where it leads.

It leads to increasinly-violent repression; towards gulags and slave-labor camps and engineered famines and wars done to use up useless cannon fodder.  It winds up with mass executions, either for trumped-up crimes, done to spread fear among those not yet arrested...or else for pure ethnic or ideological genocide.

It leads to a collapse in the industrial economy; it frequently leads to war - and if it does not it is only because the despotic government wasted all resources before it consolidated its power enough to wage war.  It leads, in short, to decimation of the populace.

And all that is necessary for it to continue and to step up the pace, is for good people to do nothing - to hide and cower and pray for a humble spirit to bear it.

The MORAL duty of the hour is to try to STOP it - with the means available.  It is not yet the time to hoist the Gadsden Flag and raise a pitchfork.  That way leads to quick obliteration, at this point.

NOW is the time to use the political tools available to either stop this deranged juggernaut, or else cut one's home, one's community, one's city, one's STATE...FROM this madness.

Secession is one such plan.  Not the only one but an obvious starting point.

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2016, 10:46:27 pm »
@INVAR

Maybe this subject has been broached. I think that High ranking military people who have been forced out since GWB have been making plans for the inevitability of an armed insurrection. How deep that goes or how widespread I wouldn't know. Or if such even exists. But in many countries it is the military involved to a high degree in these matters. So if such an organization popped up how many people would answer a/the call?
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2016, 10:51:40 pm »
@INVAR

Maybe this subject has been broached. I think that High ranking military people who have been forced out since GWB have been making plans for the inevitability of an armed insurrection. How deep that goes or how widespread I wouldn't know. Or if such even exists. But in many countries it is the military involved to a high degree in these matters. So if such an organization popped up how many people would answer a/the call?
Well I doubt they are advertising anything if they are.
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Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2016, 11:02:06 pm »
Well I doubt they are advertising anything if they are.

No. They are not. What I am asking is if in the event of an armed insurrection say, in Texas, and an organization like this decided it was time to make their move and put out a general call to arms nationwide , how many people would respond?

I would like to think certain governors are in on it.

People tend to think of themselves as solitary in this, but I don't think that would be the case. I surely don't want to be the first penguin off the floe, but if everybody was encouraged to jump in at once, the action could be stupendous.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2016, 11:04:24 pm »
@ Idaho_Cowboy

Oh and hey. Idaho is where the Texans will be headed.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2016, 11:08:40 pm »
No. They are not. What I am asking is if in the event of an armed insurrection say, in Texas, and an organization like this decided it was time to make their move and put out a general call to arms nationwide , how many people would respond?

I would like to think certain governors are in on it.

People tend to think of themselves as solitary in this, but I don't think that would be the case. I surely don't want to be the first penguin off the floe, but if everybody was encouraged to jump in at once, the action could be stupendous.

There has to be a critical mass.

And it takes TIME for enough people to be persuaded that action is necessary.  John Brown got his sorry backside wasted there at Harper's Ferry - but just a few years later the whole of the North was ready to go to war to force the South back into the Union, so that the Federal Government, just a few years earlier imposing slavery on Northern States with the Fugitive Slave Act...so that Federal Government could forcibly liberate slaves in the South.

It took a dynamic that occurred between Brown's foolish death and Lincoln's election.

It will be the wise leader, wherever he comes from, who can read the mood and figure the best time to act.  It may not happen.  It's possible that Invar may be correct here. 

But for the love of liberty, we should watch for it and work for it as we can.

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2016, 11:13:56 pm »
There has to be a critical mass.



Hillary's mass appears to be about critical. Her election (gargle, gag, spit) would be enough to push a button. The only way she is going to win is through fraud. That may be enough of a catalyst.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #88 on: August 17, 2016, 11:22:51 pm »
Hillary's mass appears to be about critical. Her election (gargle, gag, spit) would be enough to push a button. The only way she is going to win is through fraud. That may be enough of a catalyst.

No, I disagree there.

The only way she's going to win is through TRUMP.

But that's off-topic on this thread.

Offline Bigun

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2016, 11:49:07 pm »
It's a mis-titled thread that the mods created when stripping Don-O's original post of the discussion that centered on the idea of secession.

It is already self-evident that the idea of States' Rights no longer actually exists or applies in practice.  The federal Beast can and will impose itself in issues it has no authority to do so; i.e.: nationalizing the police forces of the country.  Camel's nose under the tent and all that having been accomplished already.

It should be better entitled: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights.


edit: well since ether started with my comment to begin this thread, I found out I can actually change the title.  Which I did.

Now we can discuss the whole gamut of subjects and ideas surrounding the idea of 'now what' to burgeoning tyranny.

A much more expansive and befitting title! Thanks!  :beer: :patriot:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline INVAR

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #90 on: August 18, 2016, 12:46:53 am »
I don't disagree with many of the facts as you lay them out; but I disagree with the conclusions.  As well, I resist that passivity, violently.

I did not say anything about being passive. In my estimation - relying on the ballot box or more efforts to make Constitutional Amendments fall under the category of passivity.  Especially when dealing with an entrenched oligarchy that has no problem illustrating their contempt for us. Tyrants are not moved by civil measures.   I'm far from passive.  But my engagement is being done in an arena that Patriarchs like Henry and Paine had to spearhead first in order to prep a mindset that would be required for what would come upon the Colonists in short order.

As you outline below - a warning must be given of what is going to happen as consequences are yet to be visited on us for what has already been sown.  That said - most of what I read about this issue limits commentary to false bravado or cognitive dissonance of where we have arrived and are headed. 

We are going the way Argentina and Chile and Cuba and Ethiopia and Germany and Italy and dozens of other nation-states have gone in the past.  We KNOW where it leads.

It leads to increasinly-violent repression; towards gulags and slave-labor camps and engineered famines and wars done to use up useless cannon fodder.  It winds up with mass executions, either for trumped-up crimes, done to spread fear among those not yet arrested...or else for pure ethnic or ideological genocide.

EXACTLY.  But most think you are cuckoo for even bringing up that possibility.

"That cannot happen here" is the usual and standard reply.

Unfortunately, such people are ignorant of, or discount wholesale - human nature.  And that has not changed in 6000 years of recorded human history.

And all that is necessary for it to continue and to step up the pace, is for good people to do nothing - to hide and cower and pray for a humble spirit to bear it.

Scripture is pretty clear that if a nation is given over to judgment - praying to endure to the end is an admonition from the Lord Himself.  For it is Providence that grants a victory over unjust rulers - not our own strength or resolve.  To assume we can do anything of ourselves defeats us in advance of any effort we make outside of God.

The MORAL duty of the hour is to try to STOP it - with the means available. 

The 'means' has been corrupted into irrelevance.  Fact of the current situation.

Article V's time of effectiveness would have been a decade or so ago.  But since the rule of law is no longer is respected or followed, it will just be more closing of barn doors after the horse escaped.  At this time, article V's effectiveness will be to demonstrate that civil recourse is no longer a possibility against a tyranny.  It will provide the justification to do what must be done because it will be the last measure and effort made to avoid what I think is inevitable.

It is not yet the time to hoist the Gadsden Flag and raise a pitchfork.  That way leads to quick obliteration, at this point.

If not now, when?  After we are all in chains and the examples have been made of those obliterated souls who dared resist so as to cause any and all who oppose tyranny to go silent and dark?

NOW is the time to use the political tools available to either stop this deranged juggernaut, or else cut one's home, one's community, one's city, one's STATE...FROM this madness.

I am of the belief that political tools are at this point, useless.   You cannot restrain tyrants via civil means.  Period.  The Beast is now self-aware. Political tools are for a civil society who are self governed by a set of shared principles and values.  We no longer have those in this country any longer, save for sects of a balkanized population that finds itself in the minority of ideological thought and persuasion.

Secession is one such plan.  Not the only one but an obvious starting point.

Forget the legal constructs of secession.  Simply grow a population to refuse to comply with the beast and have them ready and prepared to defend themselves when the beast comes to force it's will upon them.

"Secession" merely gives the legal caste the power to declare such action illegal and a cassus belli to do much worse much quicker and sooner against the people who refuse to bend the knee.  Think of it as asymmetric warfare by refusing the consent to be governed by the beast that has risen up to rule over us.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline INVAR

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #91 on: August 18, 2016, 12:58:07 am »
No, I disagree there.

The only way she's going to win is through TRUMP.

But that's off-topic on this thread.

Not off topic at all.  We're discussing Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights because of the corruption and tyranny that Hildabeast and all of D.C. are representative of.

As to "Winning" - Hillary will "win" the same as she did against Sanders.  This is a coronation, not an election.  It's an illusion to placate a population as to how deep and wide Marxist/Statism has gotten it's Commie-claws into deciding everything.
Fart for freedom, fart for liberty and fart proudly.  - Benjamin Franklin

...Obsta principiis—Nip the shoots of arbitrary power in the bud, is the only maxim which can ever preserve the liberties of any people. When the people give way, their deceivers, betrayers and destroyers press upon them so fast that there is no resisting afterwards. The nature of the encroachment upon [the] American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer, it eats faster and faster every hour." - John Adams, February 6, 1775

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #92 on: August 18, 2016, 01:49:51 am »

...

If not now, when?  After we are all in chains and the examples have been made of those obliterated souls who dared resist so as to cause any and all who oppose tyranny to go silent and dark?



When there is strength in numbers.  When there is no other course.

I don't think we're beyond political solutions to this - but I'll accept your premise.  Whether or not non-violent solutions will not work...having 30, or 300, or 3000 patriots stage a riot, is just an invitation for the Department of Education ( :shrug: ) to try out their new SWAT toys and all that armament they bought.

They won't hesitate.  The same officials who wouldn't DARE fire on black hominids pulling white people out of cars at roadblocks they've put up...would machine-gun 3000 ranchers or suburbanites in a nanosecond.

And they'd have the cover-story all written before they even pulled the trigger.  Look what happened at Waco, where the collateral damage was WHITE.  To the Left, it's ALL ABOUT skin color.

No...that is not the way.  Political resistance, while it may not itself work, is a rallying point - a way to telegraph the message.  Send out the vibes.  Recruit.  THEN, when the time comes...it won't be a ranch in Oregon; it will be ENTIRE STATES.

Or not.  Success is not guaranteed here; not even by the appalling stupidity of the opposing side.

Offline bigheadfred

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #93 on: August 18, 2016, 02:55:26 am »
@JustPassinThru  @INVAR

" Political resistance is a way to telegraph the message." 

Right. Telegraph it. Let them see you coming from afar. Resistance is futile.

obama may have an October Surprise for us. Or later. That reminds me. I need some new long johns.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #94 on: August 18, 2016, 04:13:33 am »
An article 5 convention of States could lay the groundwork for proof that all civil means had been exhausted. The trick would be to get media to present that as it is, an attempt by Americans to rein in a government run amok, and not as some bunch of angry kooks. That will require patient and calm education of the American People as to just what their rights are supposed to be.

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #95 on: August 18, 2016, 04:49:20 am »
Alot of this boils down to getting our Governors, Legislators, and Sheriffs educated and thinking about this stuff. They are the line in the sand against the Feds with the legal ability to resist if not quash Federal aggression.

Again, we are rapidly coming to the point where the Feds are going to be in dire financial straits. Most likely I expect that to happen the next recession. They are not going to be able to be particularly aggressive if they can't float the debt and the checks are bouncing while the dollar is plunging.

It is during that power vacuum that the time for the Governors to act will be at hand.
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Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #96 on: August 18, 2016, 04:49:27 am »
@JustPassinThru  @INVAR

" Political resistance is a way to telegraph the message." 

Right. Telegraph it. Let them see you coming from afar. Resistance is futile.

obama may have an October Surprise for us. Or later. That reminds me. I need some new long johns.

Most people are FOLLOWERS.

They'll follow a leader; but relatively few will stand up first, or alone.

If no one takes the lead, the majority will just continue to take it...right up to marching cooperatively to the gas chambers.

SHOWING them that there ARE those who resist, sends a message to both sides.  To the forces of "Social Justice":  They're pushing too far.  To those who would do something but not alone - there are others.

A lynch mob, or a peace march...neither happens without a leader of some sort.

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #97 on: August 18, 2016, 05:20:53 am »
Three out of Five Texans support Secession if Cankles wins

Finally we polled on Texas secession. Overall 26% of voters would support leaving the United States to 59% who want to stay, and 15% who aren't sure either way. Among Trump voters support for secession goes up to 37%, with only 49% opposed to exiting. If you look at the Presidential race in Texas only among  voters who are opposed to seceding from the United State, Clinton leads Trump 54/41. But that's offset by Trump's 72/20 advantage with the secession crowd. If Clinton is elected President this fall, the Trump voters really want out- in that case 61% say they'd support seceding from the United States, to only 29% who  would stick around.

Offline don-o

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #98 on: August 18, 2016, 05:49:22 pm »
Since it seems this thread may go on for a while, here's something from a site that always has thought provoking and informative content.

History of States’ Rights, 1774-1817
http://www.theimaginativeconservative.org/2013/02/history-of-states-rights-1774-1817.html

On the eve of the American Revolution, most American thinkers had embraced the idea of all rights (and, therefore, sovereignty) being inherited.[1] Americans, as brothers and descendents of Englishmen, were entitled to the rights inherited from the English through the development of Anglo-Saxon common law and through the several political battles, such as those witnessed most blatantly with King John signing the Magna Carta in 1215, the development of Parliament in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, and the ascendancy of Parliament in the Glorious Revolution of 1688. Parliament not only embodied the will of the people, but it also served as the ultimate authority and the sovereign, at least in conjunction with the Crown. Americans, prior to the fall of 1774, saw themselves in this tradition, inheriting the rights of the common law and of Englishmen. The legal scholar and future signer of the Declaration of Independence, Charles Carroll of Carrolton, put it succinctly:

   
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How came many unconstitutional powers to be exercised by the crown, and suffered by parliament? for instance, the dispensing power—the answer is obvious; it required the wisdom of ages, and accumulated efforts of patriotism, to bring the constitution its is (sic) present point of perfection; a thorough reformation could not be effected at once; upon the whole fabrick is stately, and magnificent, yet a perfect symmetry, and correspondence of parts is wanting; in some places, the pile appears to be deficient in strength, in others the rude and unpolished taste of our Gothic ancestors is discoverable.[2]

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Re: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights
« Reply #99 on: August 18, 2016, 06:40:53 pm »
One more encouraging post if I can. All I can say is with this thing - get involved. Not necessarily in the Republican party like I did, but at the very least, get active in issues or something, and network. With other activists for certain, but especially with your local elected officials - county supervisors, sheriff, county attorney, auditor, recorder, or whatever you elect where you are.

I spent about 15 years in the GOP here in Iowa and ultimately rose to be a Congressional district officer before I got out. I met many elected officials clear up to our Governor, and am friends with the Lt. Gov., the heir apparent. I know her well enough that I could get at least a few minutes to put some thoughts to ponder on, along the lines of this discussion.

That comes from nothing more than getting involved over the years. It's easier than most people think, it just takes some work and dedication, and getting out there. For those who see no solution with Hillary or Trump, this might be the place to put your energies.
The Republic is lost.