Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights

[JustPassinThru]

And the best way to accomplish that is to break their rice bowl!  We do that by insisting on passage of the Fairtax bill (HR25/S122) currently before both houses of congress!

Once the Income tax and the IRS have been eliminated there will be little left for current inhabitants of K Street in Washington to do and the problem will be largely solved!

http://fairtax.org

I can guarantee you that, should that ever be passed, it will be an ADDITIONAL tax, not a replacement for the much-loved Income Tax.

LONG before we can seriously think about reforming the tax system, the dynastic system of political lifers in Congress must be terminated.  IF the Union remains, that can only happen with Term Limits.  THAT will only happen with Constitutional Amendments.

Which can only happen, at this point, with an Article V Convention.

[JustPassinThru]

I doubt that it's actually popular with most Texans, either.  But there will always be the crazies who want to think differently (remember the so-called Republic of Texas back in the '90s that was gonna create a bow wave of righteous dissent?).

Glad you brought that up.  That's exactly HOW....NOT to do it.

First, it has to happen within the legal framework of the States.  To preserve law, order and structure locally.   And to allay the fears of persons with no other opinions on the matter.

In any controversial move such as this one, opinion will cut three ways.  There will be Yeas and Nays and those with no opinion - except they do not want discomfort or cost.  The Revolutionary War was fought with MINORITY support - the opponents and those who didn't care, probably outnumbered those with a zeal for independence.  But enough were strong-minded enough; and opponents also opinionated enough, that the war was fought; opponents pressured to leave to British territories north; and the war won.

The promise of the end to asinine laws handed down by outsiders and protected by deranged liberal FedGov judges, plus the tax savings, would probably be enough to leave those with no opinion, hold their peace or even support it.

[r9etb]

Glad you brought that up.  That's exactly HOW....NOT to do it.

First, it has to happen within the legal framework of the States.  To preserve law, order and structure locally.   And to allay the fears of persons with no other opinions on the matter.

In any controversial move such as this one, opinion will cut three ways.  There will be Yeas and Nays and those with no opinion - except they do not want discomfort or cost.  The Revolutionary War was fought with MINORITY support - the opponents and those who didn't care, probably outnumbered those with a zeal for independence.  But enough were strong-minded enough; and opponents also opinionated enough, that the war was fought; opponents pressured to leave to British territories north; and the war won.

The promise of the end to asinine laws handed down by outsiders and protected by deranged liberal FedGov judges, plus the tax savings, would probably be enough to leave those with no opinion, hold their peace or even support it.

And again, the whole secession thing is a stupid idea.  An idea of Trumpian stupidity.  Beyond Trumpian, even.

Here you are talking about creating consensus -- the very thing you need in order to make change without secession.

[thackney]

I doubt that it's actually popular with most Texans, either.  But there will always be the crazies who want to think differently (remember the so-called Republic of Texas back in the '90s that was gonna create a bow wave of righteous dissent?).

I thought you were not wasting your pixels?

Do you have another source of polling data, or just your gut feel?

[r9etb]

I thought you were not wasting your pixels?

Do you have another source of polling data, or just your gut feel?

Do you?

[Bigun]

I'm not wasting my pixels on arguing the merits of secession.  It's a ridiculous idea.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world."

 Abraham Lincoln, 1847

"We do heartily accept this doctrine, believing it intrinsically sound, beneficent, and one that, universally accepted, is calculated to prevent the shedding of seas of human blood. And, if it justified the secession from the British Empire of Three Millions of colonists in 1776, we do not see why it would not justify the secession of Five Millions of Southrons from the Federal Union in 1861."

 Horace Greely, December 17,1860

"....many incidents both preceding and following the War support the proposition that the Southern States did have the right to secede from the Union. Instances of nullification prior to the War Between the States, contingencies under which certain states acceded to the Union, and the fact that the Southern States were made to surrender the right to secession all affirm the existence of a right to secede...."

 Newcomb Morse, Stetson Law Review

"What would have been the point of the foregoing proposed amendments to the Constitution of the United States prohibiting or limiting the right of secession if under the Constitution the unfettered right of secession did not already exist? Why would Congress have even considered proposed amendments to the Constitution forbidding or restricting the right of secession if any such right was already prohibited, limited or non-existent under the Constitution?"

Chief Justice John Marshall, in Gibbons v. Ogden

[thackney]

Do you?

The poll results referenced in the article about 3 out 5 Texans:

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2015/PPP_Release_TX_81616.pdf

Finally we polled on Texas secession. Overall 26% of voters would support
leaving the United States to 59% who want to stay, and 15% who aren't sure
either way. Among Trump voters support for secession goes up to 37%, with only
49% opposed to exiting. If you look at the Presidential race in Texas only among
voters who are opposed to seceding from the United State, Clinton leads Trump
54/41. But that's offset by Trump's 72/20 advantage with the secession crowd. If
Clinton is elected President this fall, the Trump voters really want out- in that
case 61% say they'd support seceding from the United States, to only 29% who
would stick around.

Public Policy Polling surveyed 944 likely voters from August 12th to 14th. The margin of error is +/-3.2%.
80% of participants, selected through a list based sample, responded via the phone, while 20% of
respondents who did not have landlines conducted the survey over the internet through an opt-in internet
panel.

[Idaho_Cowboy]

It would be far easier to build such a consensus in a few conservative states versus the entire US population.

I was talking to the missus last night about this. It's almost as if people need to start planning now and pick one state. We both love Idaho, but Texas was the obvious choice. Start moving in as many Tea Party types as you can into the state and get involved in grass roots activism. Sounds a little crazy to freewheeling American, but look up the history of the redounding of Israel. Decades of work went into making possible what happened on May 14, 1948.

Again this is definite pipe dream, but if we can't build consensus across the board due to the public schools etc, then our only other option is to figure out how to concentrate what we have.   

[thackney]

I was talking to the missus last night about this. It's almost as if people need to start planning now and pick one state. We both love Idaho, but Texas was the obvious choice. Start moving in as many Tea Party types as you can into the state and get involved in grass roots activism. Sounds a little crazy to freewheeling American, but look up the history of the redounding of Israel. Decades of work went into making possible what happened on May 14, 1948.

Again this is definite pipe dream, but if we can't build consensus across the board due to the public schools etc, then our only other option is to figure out how to concentrate what we have.

I also view it as a possible tool to use to return the US back to a more constitutional government.  Like peace through superior firepower, you don't have to always fire your weapon to make your point.  A demonstration of support can make a difference, just as the Tea Party first did.

Putting it up for a Texas Statewide vote is a good first step. 

[r9etb]

The poll results referenced in the article about 3 out 5 Texans:

So I was correct.  The poll apparently says not even a majority of Trump supporters would support secession, and only 26% of all voters would -- words to a pollster being cheap, indeed.

[thackney]

So I was correct.  The poll apparently says not even a majority of Trump supporters would support secession, and only 26% of all voters would -- words to a pollster being cheap, indeed.

A journey of a 1,000 miles begins with the first steps.

Not everyone agreed when the colonies first signed the Declaration of Independence, not all agreed when Independence was won.

And the first talk of Independence didn't start in 1776.

[r9etb]

A journey of a 1,000 miles begins with the first steps.

Not everyone agreed when the colonies first signed the Declaration of Independence, not all agreed when Independence was won.

And the first talk of Independence didn't start in 1776.

Meh. 

[thackney]

Meh.

God Bless you!

[r9etb]

God Bless you!

Thanks: I need all the help I can get.

But really: this secession twaddle you guys are bandying about is just silly talk.  There are other, better, ways of dealing with the problems.  Unfortunately, those things take time and effort, and you're a "conservative," which makes you impatient. 

[thackney]

Thanks: I need all the help I can get.

But really: this secession twaddle you guys are bandying about is just silly talk.  There are other, better, ways of dealing with the problems.  Unfortunately, those things take time and effort, and you're a "conservative," which makes you impatient.

Any of the choices to change the direction of the bigger, more powerful government are going to take significant time and effort.  Session would be a huge undertaking and certainly not a battle easily won.  It isn't my first choice.  But I see a growing support for more government and less personal liberty and responsibility.

I'm on a bus on I-10.  I bought a ticket to Beaumont, but the bus is headed west.  The ticket ad talked of Lamar University, State Rights, Shall not be infringed, Gulf Port, etc.  But we started in Houston and we have already passed San Antonio.  We have a few willing to drive the bus east, but when we vote year after year (slow bus) a west bound driver keeps getting elected.

Some say we will eventually turn around.  Some say it is more important to get to El Paso first, just a detour.  But the more I talk to others on the bus, the more I realize most want the Dunes, Mountains and the Rio Grande.  They have their place, but my work in Beaumont.

Some keep talking about change, but only drivers going west are allowed behind the wheel.  We passed Kerrville, Junction and Sonora.  Some talk about turning east and cutting regulations, restrictions, but they also say Kelo and corn ethanol are great and keep driving west.

Eventually, if you want to get to Beaumont, and no east bound drivers are allowed behind the wheel, you need a different bus.  It won't be a quick and easy drive from Fort Stockton.  But it is tough to get to Beaumont when the bus keeps going west.

[JustPassinThru]

And again, the whole secession thing is a stupid idea.  An idea of Trumpian stupidity.  Beyond Trumpian, even.

Here you are talking about creating consensus -- the very thing you need in order to make change without secession.

For some reason, deliberately or out of ignorance, you completely ignore the situation in Washington.

They are IMMUNE to consensus.  They don't seek the consent of the governed - they RULE over us.  How plain could we have MADE it that we didn't want Obamacare, TPP, a thousand other expensive and antidemocratic edicts and programs?  THESE ARE BEING FORCED ON US.  And the cost will come due; and the taxes ALSO forced on us.

We have been trying to get States to join in an Article V Convention - and once again, a few elitists are serving as roadblocks.  THIS HAS TO STOP, and the Print-And-Spend Political Elites will not stop.  They're awash in money and in cronies seeking to take government money and give their own as advance investment.

The check on Washington was always the States, through the Senate.  The Senate was to be filled with State appointees.  That is no longer true and there is no consensus anymore and no desire to seek one.

That you deny such obvious facts, suggests that you may have an agenda also.

[IsailedawayfromFR]

But really: this secession twaddle you guys are bandying about is just silly talk. 

King George's advisors would have enjoyed you back in 1776, as they were saying exactly the same thing.

People also said this about Brexit.

One state that takes a stand here will cause a ripple effect that will swing this country's direction immensely.

To me, that is worth it.

[r9etb]

King George's advisors would have enjoyed you back in 1776, as they were saying exactly the same thing.

People also said this about Brexit.

One state that takes a stand here will cause a ripple effect that will swing this country's direction immensely.

To me, that is worth it.

Well, King George's advisors (he, himself, being insane) were idiots.  Not unlike our current ruling class (comprised of both parties, and of the bureaucracy).  In reality the American Revolution was eminently avoidable, though doing so would obviously have required a significant political sea-change. 

The thing is, we're not really in the same position as the colonists.  We do have access to the means of making political changes -- but doing so requires a lot of effort and patience as we educate the public and slowly eat away at the status quo.

But conservatives always seem to want that One Big Battle, the winning of which is supposed to save the world forevermore.  We never learn -- we just rest on our laurels while the left regroups and gnaws away at our gains until they're gone.  Secession is just another version of the One Big Battle.

[bigheadfred]

@INVAR @RoosGirl @Idaho_Cowboy  ALL

Secession is useless.

Changing the mindset of the people in a nonviolent way is useless. Think Exodus.

" The Turkish army entered the capital and for half an hour, the army marched on the road that was bordered by some 20,000 impaled Turks.[29] There, they found the rotten corpse of Hamza Pasha impaled on the highest stake, to symbolize his 'high ranking'." Vlad The Impaler via wikipedia

This has its merits.

OK. Back to work.

[INVAR]

you completely ignore the situation in Washington.

They are IMMUNE to consensus.  They don't seek the consent of the governed - they RULE over us.  How plain could we have MADE it that we didn't want Obamacare, TPP, a thousand other expensive and antidemocratic edicts and programs?  THESE ARE BEING FORCED ON US.  And the cost will come due; and the taxes ALSO forced on us.

We have been trying to get States to join in an Article V Convention - and once again, a few elitists are serving as roadblocks.  THIS HAS TO STOP, and the Print-And-Spend Political Elites will not stop.  They're awash in money and in cronies seeking to take government money and give their own as advance investment.

The check on Washington was always the States, through the Senate.  The Senate was to be filled with State appointees.  That is no longer true and there is no consensus anymore and no desire to seek one.

You are NEVER going to be able to put a stop to any of that, or even slow it down via civil means.

Period.

History teaches that tyrants and a ruling class will NEVER yield their power and wealth streams from those they yank it from without the threat and use of force.  The lawless are not going to yield to new laws they already exempt themselves from.  They will also never yield to a people demanding they surrender their power and theft industry via the institutions they have corrupted.

Few to none are willing to risk what would be necessary to even amount to the 3% that actively engaged and resisted the Crown.

You are also forgetting that liberty cannot exist without the moral and religious foundations that established us.  Since that no longer exists in this culture - and this people are no longer governed by God, the idea of restraining the tyranny of men is ridiculous.  Only when a people are spiritually ready will God grant such efforts of liberty the victory after much hardship and bloodshed.

History teaches that a people who have become what we now are, WANT slavery.  They WANT the 'security' of dependence.  A people who make government their god cannot and will not be capable of freedom.

Speaking directly to the tyranny most willingly suffer and refuse to call tyranny, the majority of those even looking at the reality of our situation are counting the costs and not willing to risk what would be necessary to rectify it.  Lives, fortunes and sacred honor things.   I cannot even get any traction among likeminded folks to agree to simply refuse to comply with the Beast.  They say they gotta eat and pay the bills and cannot risk punitive acts for refusing to go along.

If Christians themselves would not stand up against encroachments of evil upon their free exercise of faith - why would we think they would stand up and risk their lives to resist what society and their tyrannical government impose on them?  How many of them are going to throw Romans 13 in your face for even discussing this subject?

Let us face the reality of the ground now before us.  We're going the way of Rome and every other Republic that fell. You cannot reverse that, despite the screaming of our normalcy biases against accepting what is staring at us in the face.  Defeatist?  Not if you want to survive, and that is what we really need to focus a remnant to get their minds wired to do.

We need to survive the consequences this government and people have already sown against us.  Consequences that have yet to be experienced by us, before we can begin the hard work of reeducating a morally degenerate and selfish people to do as you advocate.  But we are not going to just magically vote to return ourselves to what was already lost.

"But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty once lost is lost forever. When the People once surrender their share in the Legislature, and their Right of defending the Limitations upon the Government, and of resisting every Encroachment upon them, they can never regain it." - John Adams, July 7,  1777

That statement by Adams is not only historically accurate - it is biblically accurate as well.

What is before us is to resist if we would retain what liberty this people and their government seek to abolish.  AND then we need to explain in very painful language, the reasons we ended up where we have. 

You cannot move to righteousness and liberty without repentance, and a people who see nothing wrong with how we got here, are not capable of becoming the vanguards of whatever liberty we win for our posterity.

[Free Vulcan]

Let's put a twist on this convo by posing this question:

What if DC runs out of money?

First some facts:

1) Our current debt load of $20T (which doesn't even touch unfunded liabilities) is structured as such: approximately a 6Y average maturity, at roughly 2%, with a current interest cost of $400B.

2) If we had a recession of equal magnitude as the last, in terms of plunging tax revenue and increased expenditures, we would be running $2T deficits.

3) Our dollar is still the reserve currency, and there are trillions floating out there in the world financial system.

So what if for example, the recession is worse than last time? Instead of $2T deficits, it's $2.5T or $3T? Who's going to fund that? China? The EU? They are all in as bad or worse shape than us.

The Federal Reserve? What will that do to our reserve currency status if the Fed buys the debt that nobody wanted and dumps trillions of dollars into a financial system already awash in dollars?

What if, to float that debt, the Govt has to offer a higher interest rate? What if that rate goes to 6 or 8% and stays there, or is higher? Those are historical norms, not the 1% we have today.

That means in a short time, interest costs will explode. We now run around a $3.5T budget. What if interest costs quadruple at an average 8% rate? That's almost half the federal budget. Our biggest spending sectors are social programs and military. What has to give?

Or, if the Fed wants to buy all the debt, what happens when the rest of the world dumps our currency? How will the govt be able to function with a dollar that is now a fraction of it's former worth?

Point is, at that time, it's going to get dicey. Most likely the cities will burn as welfare gets cut along with Social Security, disability, and Medicare benefits. The economy will crater. Jobs will disappear, people will be in desperate straits, and DC will be out of money.

That is when the Governors and the States will have the opportunity to stand up. With the Federal govt able to fund no more than a rump state, they will have no choice but the cede the territory.

When we talk about states going on their own, that is the time when it will happen.

[thackney]

Well, King George's advisors (he, himself, being insane) were idiots.  Not unlike our current ruling class (comprised of both parties, and of the bureaucracy).  In reality the American Revolution was eminently avoidable, though doing so would obviously have required a significant political sea-change. 

The thing is, we're not really in the same position as the colonists.  We do have access to the means of making political changes -- but doing so requires a lot of effort and patience as we educate the public and slowly eat away at the status quo.

But conservatives always seem to want that One Big Battle, the winning of which is supposed to save the world forevermore.  We never learn -- we just rest on our laurels while the left regroups and gnaws away at our gains until they're gone.  Secession is just another version of the One Big Battle.

I don't see it that way at all.  If Texit would happen it would be a long road, first internally.

[thackney]

King George's advisors would have enjoyed you back in 1776, as they were saying exactly the same thing.

People also said this about Brexit.

One state that takes a stand here will cause a ripple effect that will swing this country's direction immensely.

To me, that is worth it.

I think one state just beginning the process, taking a vote of the population, would lend some effort into a few more politicians taking states rights more seriously.

[INVAR]

Let's put a twist on this convo by posing this question:

What if DC runs out of money?

When the inevitable collapse happens and America makes what happened with Weimar look like a picnic at the beach, you will learn firsthand how thin the veneer of civilization really is.

The fissures of multi-division and blame are already present and working on the carcass of the nation.

When there is real pain - vengeance will be sought and those stirring up the desperate will be able to do things we only read about happening in the Middle East and parts of Europe.

And that is not even taking into consideration what the enemies now amongst us are going to do.

[Bigun]

For whatever it's worth, it is my humble opinion that very little of what has thus far been posted on this thread entitled "States Rights"  has anything at all to do with that subject!