Author Topic: Resistance, Secession, Sovereignty and State's Rights  (Read 24209 times)

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Offline Idaho_Cowboy

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2016, 10:42:28 pm »
We have veered off topic here.What does anyone think about seeing if I can preserve secession discussion in a new topic?
Sounds good to me.
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Offline don-o

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2016, 10:50:33 pm »
Sounds good to me.

Gonna ask the Mods for help. I think the thread will be locked for a bit

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2016, 10:56:31 pm »
There is always chaos surrounding war.

There as additional chaos with Lincoln's war, as it intentionally miscast and sold as a war of abolition.  In fact it was a war of Federal supremacy over the States.  Had things gone just a little bit differently, and the Slave States controlled (again) Washington, it could have been the Free States being occupied and forced into accepting the legal protection of slavery.

The issue, at core, was that of States' Rights.  And of the right to exit the Union into which they voluntarily joined into.
I really don't see advocates of States' Rights forcing other States to do anything but plot their own course.

The crux of the slavery matter was an economic imposition on the South as an exploited source of raw materials on the verge of having its own mills and foundries. The north wanted to keep that source captive.

Eliminating the slaves would have been an economic sanction, much like taking tractors from farmers today. The North didn't need slave, it had a large flow of immigrant labor, enough to exclude certain ethnicities (the Irish need not apply) and still have enough of a surplus to pay thin wages for long hours and work children too.

That idea was catching on, because a slave owner had to make the original investment and provide food shelter, clothing, and at least rudimentary medical care for their slaves. On balance that was expensive, and if the slave died or was injured, the investment was at risk.

A hireling was far cheaper, and provided their own out of their wages. If you were a kind employer and the employee was killed or injured, you paid the widow a pittance, or for medical care, but another hireling would be cheap and easy to obtain.

Because of that, by and large, slavery was doomed to fail, anyway.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2016, 10:58:40 pm »
We have veered off topic here.What does anyone think about seeing if I can preserve secession discussion in a new topic?
We're almost always off topic on this thread.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline don-o

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2016, 11:52:22 pm »
per my request, the Mods set up a new topic for this interesting conversation. I hope all comments were saved.


Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2016, 12:02:33 am »
So...to pick it up...there are three options.

Petition the State Legislature to prepare Articles of Secession - ideally in concert with other like-minded states, but someone is going to have to lead.  Thus cut the cord that siphons money, that mandates destructive mandates and social engineering; that requires States to welcome aliens without documents or entry permission - and in fact requires the States to give them PREFERENCE.

The destructive, dead hand of Washington - everything from chaos in the public toilets, to inedible school lunches, to school lesson plans guaranteed to keep kids ignorant and confused.  Restrictions on property-owners' freedom to use their land as they need and want.  Ethanol mandates in gasoline - that damages engines and even makes activities such as boating or snowmobiling unsafe, for the fuel that becomes unusable in wet environments.

ALL this...just stopped with Secession.

Or, as someone suggested...covert de-facto secession.  Just as the corrupt SCOTUS is acting as a covert Constitutional re-writing body, so, too, can the States just ignore what they want.  If they are ready to deal with immediate suspension of highway money, block grants, welfare and Medicaid money.

Or...we can just slink back home and pray for a humble spirit to bear it...waiting for the Social Justice Warriors, protected by Federal Marshalls, to hit our neighborhoods one-by-one...searching for the People's gold, hoarded food stores, illegally-kept fuel, the People's young nubile females waiting for a Higher Use.

Take your pick.  It was for FAR less provocation that the Colonists signed the Declaration.

Online bigheadfred

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2016, 12:23:38 am »
@JustPassinThru

Right. Petition the state legislators. And leave them one option. Submit to the will of the people.
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Online bigheadfred

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2016, 12:31:20 am »
@Smokin Joe

"God knows what he is doing!"

I see this in your tagline. What people need to do is to get themselves right with God.  The people who have turned away from God and are trying to drag the rest of us down with them need to be dealt with.
She asked me name my foe then. I said the need within some men to fight and kill their brothers without thought of Love or God. Ken Hensley

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2016, 01:57:55 am »

Not saying you get twelve of your closest friends to mass up with guns at the state lines.  The STATE LEGISLATURES have to do this.  With, of course, consent of the State citizens - which the State legislature is going to have to solicit.  Or else claim emergency powers to enact Secession.


Step One: Outlaw Sanctuary Cities.

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2016, 02:11:20 am »


Or...we can just slink back home and pray for a humble spirit to bear it...waiting for the Social Justice Warriors, protected by Federal Marshalls, to hit our neighborhoods one-by-one...searching for the People's gold, hoarded food stores, illegally-kept fuel, the People's young nubile females waiting for a Higher Use.
I think I will be voting from a rooftop if that happens, but the sad part is that many who claim they will do so won't even bother to follow what is going on enough to prevent it.
Take your pick.  It was for FAR less provocation that the Colonists signed the Declaration.

Yes.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline don-o

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2016, 02:30:57 am »
@Smokin Joe

"God knows what he is doing!"

I see this in your tagline. What people need to do is to get themselves right with God.  The people who have turned away from God and are trying to drag the rest of us down with them need to be dealt with.

How?

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2016, 03:22:34 am »
@Smokin Joe

"God knows what he is doing!"

I see this in your tagline. What people need to do is to get themselves right with God.  The people who have turned away from God and are trying to drag the rest of us down with them need to be dealt with.
@don-o , too.

Fred, some will, some won't. There are those, in the words of Shakespeare's Iago (Othello) 'who would not serve God if the Devil bid them'.

While living as cleanly and as close to the mark as we can, there are others who will fit His plans, too.

We can work to eliminate corruption and try to get honorable and moral candidates elected, but as we have seen, the public may well call for their Barabbas, regardless of the nature of others available. In that sense we, as a society, will end up with the government we deserve.

We can't use our enemies' weapons against them, only their actions, in the sense that honorable ends do not justify dishonorable means. In this we are hobbled unless or until open conflict ensues, and even then must remain as honorable as we can. We cannot do evil in the name of good.
These are the same rules which have, self imposed, kept things relatively clean during campaigns in the past and were demanded by the populace. It appears, for now, that is no longer the case, but we are in mid journey and that can change.

However, if, for whatever reason conflict arises (I would assume with even more extreme violent provocation), consider that there are those people in our society who have talents and abilities which may not be considered necessarily desirable in ordinary civilian life but which would be very useful in an asymmetrical conflict situation. We don't know God's plan for those individuals, and cannot, at any rate bring them closer to him by unnecessarily alienating them.  If we treat all people with respect and decency, regardless of their position in life, it will serve all best in the end.

I do not pretend to know God's plan for this country, or even tomorrow, but must trust that He will guide me as He sees fit. In the meantime, we root out what corruption we can, calmly make people aware of it, and try to cleanse our local and State Governments of the bad seed that could grow at the Federal Level, with an eye toward cleaning out that den of thieves in Washington with the approval of the voters.

That means we work with the up and coming generations of voters, not unlike like the Communists did to corrupt the youth of the Sixties, we must show those youngsters of today there is no free lunch, that someone picks up the tab, and that that someone will eventually be them, if they can't get the FSA supply line shut down. Eventually they will pay cost plus markup plus overhead plus interest on the free cheeseburger of today. We need to get them to see that. It means we must be the ones to train them, to teach them, to even hire them when we can and explain to them how things work so they have a better handle on what needs to be changed. We need to teach them to fish, rather than hand them one, and that begins at home. If we can't instill those morals by teaching and example, we will not be able to instill them, and eventually the Republic will be lost.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 03:23:31 am by Smokin Joe »
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2016, 03:29:19 am »
We have veered off topic here.What does anyone think about seeing if I can preserve secession discussion in a new topic?
I think the original thread has spawned more spin-offs than a successful sitcom!
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2016, 05:00:09 am »
@JustPassinThru

Right. Petition the state legislators. And leave them one option. Submit to the will of the people.

The Political Class needs to be abolished.  Term limitations at the Federal level are key; but they become immaterial if a State Secedes.  As it is, State office is a stepping stone to where the REAL money is - Washington.

Whether an Article V Convention or Secession, THAT money stream is threatened.  Which means there WILL be resistance.  It has to be planned for.

Offline thackney

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2016, 11:21:25 am »
Session BMFL
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Offline Bigun

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2016, 11:33:06 am »
The Political Class needs to be abolished. 

And the best way to accomplish that is to break their rice bowl!  We do that by insisting on passage of the Fairtax bill (HR25/S122) currently before both houses of congress!

Once the Income tax and the IRS have been eliminated there will be little left for current inhabitants of K Street in Washington to do and the problem will be largely solved!

http://fairtax.org
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Offline Sanguine

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2016, 01:09:00 pm »
Bookmark.

Offline thackney

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2016, 01:36:14 pm »
You're still just saying things, though.  "Oh, well, we'll just threaten to secede!  That'll show 'em!"

But you've again left off the precise "how" of the matter.  You'd need to get buy-in from a significant portion of the populace.  But heck: if you're in a position to get that sort of buy-in, you've got the means of making a change without something so drastic as secession; in fact, you'd get a lot more buy-in from a lot more people if secession was not part of your sales pitch.

Over a quarter million people have already joined the Texas Nationalist Movement.  Not a bad start:
http://www.thetnm.org/
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Offline thackney

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2016, 01:39:18 pm »
And again: if you can build the broad consensus you require for your secession, don't you already have the means to change all those "NO's" to "YES?"  Secession wouldn't be necessary.

It would be far easier to build such a consensus in a few conservative states versus the entire US population.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2016, 02:10:58 pm »
It would be far easier to build such a consensus in a few conservative states versus the entire US population.

True enough.  Nevertheless: once you have the means and ability to build the consensus, it applies more broadly, too.  But it takes patience -- which conservatives evidently lack.

Offline thackney

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2016, 02:14:09 pm »
But it takes patience -- which conservatives evidently lack.

I don't think I agree with that generalization.  I know I'm content to keep trying for what I believe in rather than compromise my core principles for today's lesser win.
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Offline thackney

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2016, 02:17:14 pm »
True enough.  Nevertheless: once you have the means and ability to build the consensus, it applies more broadly, too.  But it takes patience -- which conservatives evidently lack.

Poll: Three out of five Texans support secession if Hillary becomes president
http://www.chron.com/news/politics/election/article/Poll-Three-out-of-five-Texans-support-secession-9146807.php

What results (with either candidate) would you expect in most every other state polls?
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Offline r9etb

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2016, 02:19:34 pm »
Poll: Three out of five Texans support secession if Hillary becomes president
http://www.chron.com/news/politics/election/article/Poll-Three-out-of-five-Texans-support-secession-9146807.php

What results (with either candidate) would you expect in most every other state polls?

I'm not wasting my pixels on arguing the merits of secession.  It's a ridiculous idea.

Offline thackney

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2016, 02:22:30 pm »
I'm not wasting my pixels on arguing the merits of secession.  It's a ridiculous idea.

Cheers to you then.

A lot of Texans disagree with you.  But that isn't a popular opinion nationwide.
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Offline r9etb

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Re: States' rights
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2016, 02:35:03 pm »
Cheers to you then.

A lot of Texans disagree with you.  But that isn't a popular opinion nationwide.

I doubt that it's actually popular with most Texans, either.  But there will always be the crazies who want to think differently (remember the so-called Republic of Texas back in the '90s that was gonna create a bow wave of righteous dissent?).