Author Topic: The Gold Standard  (Read 6796 times)

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Offline EC

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2016, 05:22:37 pm »
I confess that we've moved beyond my economic comfort level in this discussion; however, I'm really good at spotting "easy fix" solutions -- and the gold standard discussion is most certainly an "easy fix" solution. 

Unfortunately, with something as complex as a modern economy, the "easy fix" is almost certainly the wrong fix.  It will simply introduce new and different problems that I suspect will complement and increase, rather than solve, the economic difficulties we currently face.

My level of economic competence was passed about 5 words in to the OP. I am, however, skilled at barter (and blackmail), which is what currency is in it's purest form.  :tongue2:



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Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2016, 06:23:53 pm »
Symbolic of.....?

Wealth.  Tools are wealth.  Stored foodstuffs are wealth.  A shelter that meets your needs, is wealth.

You're a bushman. You sit on a pile of brush...what you have underneath you is debris.  If you craft a plan and make a secure hut out of it, and it shelters you...you have created wealth.

If you sell that hut for gold nuggets, you have stored wealth you can use to trade for water-buffalo milk, or whatever.

Anyway, you've just negated the whole argument for the gold standard.  If currency is symbolic, then we're free to choose any symbol we wish.  It needn't be gold.

Printed paper?

Did you happen to peruse my photo of what happened when the Wiemar government used printed paper as wealth?

Many things have been tried; but the enduring material that cultures keep on coming back to, is gold.  Copper is too plentiful.  Silver also.  Jewels are not malleable into various quantities.

Fiat can be reproduced endlessly.

If you can exchange money for wealth, then in any practical sense, money = wealth. 

So, the government can just give everyone ten million dollars...and we'd all be rich?

Money symbolizes wealth but is not wealth.  And it can be debased to where it's valueless - as it would be if everyone were given that free money.  As it IS being debased now.

You've made a tremendous leap there, that is not justified by economic theory or practice, nor by the real world.

Only by all of civilized history. 

There is a vast middle ground between "money that cannot be duplicated" (which means, among other things, that credit is not allowed); and "reckless political opportunists."

Yes, and gold can be found, too.

The limited opportunities for that, control expansion of the currency.

Credit is of course still possible, although much-more limited.  Just as other forms of promissory notes would be permitted.

The alternative is to have what we have now; what other failed societies and economies have had.  Worthless currency and inflation; with saved units debased and devalued.

Offline r9etb

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2016, 07:03:42 pm »
Wealth.  Tools are wealth.  Stored foodstuffs are wealth.  A shelter that meets your needs, is wealth.

So we are in agreement.  Money of any form, is just a convenient (very convenient) substitute for barter.  It provides a means of transferring value without having to trade (say) a physical water buffalo for a physical dining room set.

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Many things have been tried; but the enduring material that cultures keep on coming back to, is gold.  Copper is too plentiful.  Silver also.  Jewels are not malleable into various quantities.  Fiat can be reproduced endlessly.

See what you're doing here, though?  You're requiring something scarce (only because previously difficult to extract), and tying the world economy to a commodity that cannot (based on real, historical data) keep pace with the growth of real wealth.  Surely you see the difficulty.

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Only by all of civilized history. 

You say this, but I gave historical examples to the contrary.  Advantage: me.

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Credit is of course still possible, although much-more limited.  Just as other forms of promissory notes would be permitted.

This makes no sense.  Either you're demanding 100% gold backing (in which case credit as it currently exists is virtually impossible), or you're allowing for non-gold transactions, in which case you've simply reverted to some version of the current situation.

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The alternative is to have what we have now; what other failed societies and economies have had.  Worthless currency and inflation; with saved units debased and devalued.

This is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle.  Either what we have now, or the gold standard.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2016, 08:51:02 pm »
Some issues I have with the Gold Standard:

1. First, it isn't Constitutionally required. The reading of 'to coin money and set the value thereof' did not mean directly or indirectly that it had to be a metal based currency. "To coin" in the context as described in the Federalist papers simply meant to produce either by alloy or by valuation (Federalist 44). IE, it opened up to it not being on a precious metal standard. The only restriction to a non-federal currency is one by the States in which case that must be based on gold or silver (as to not have competing direct currency with the national currency, States would trade commodities instead).

2. The U.S. is no longer the primary gold producer. China and Russia are 1 and 3 in top gold producing countries (Australia #2). This allows for external forces to manipulate supply and demand- external forces not friendly to us.

3. One of the reasons why we finally completely went off the Gold Standard under Nixon was due to the outstanding notes far exceeding supply. Nixon was forced to consider taking a loan from the IMF just to cover existing gold bearer note calls- putting our financial control in the hands of an international body versus the ourselves.

4. Gold is no longer just a 'retainer of value'. When we were on the Gold Standard, its commodity value was based on its use as a currency or value holder. Now, it has a large industrial application in electronics and satellite/space industries.  This has changed how gold is traded on the commodity market and where the valuation lays. It will only grow toward the latter and away from just something people see as a holder of perceived value. IE, the use of gold is changing.
Point 1

Article 1 Section 10

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No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.
Keep in mind this is a limitation on the States, and was intended to keep fiat currencies not under Federal Control from being generated. This did not place that requirement on the Federal Government.

Further, the discussion of what is legal tender versus "lawful money" is carried out to some degree here: http://famguardian.org/Subjects/MoneyBanking/FederalReserve/FRconspire/lawful.htm note that in the letter exchange, a United States Note is not the same as a Federal Reserve Note, the former being issued by the United States Treasury, the latter a promissory note by a banking cartel accepted as legal tender after the Federal Reserve Act.


Point 2. Irrelevant. It's nice if we are the primary producer, but in the past that title has moved around, and iirc South Africa was it for a while. That the US is not may as much reflect the myriad environmental laws and changes in the mining act which no longer allow mineral claims to be taken to patent. An additional incentive to discover and mine resources was the concept that the discoverer, with sufficient development, could own the land, that seen also as incentive to not make a complete mess of it. Between all the various environmental, OSHA, MSA, and other regulations it's pretty difficult to establish a mine as a small scale operation, and small scale mines are like stripper wells, they may not produce much individually, but in aggregate can produce a significant amount. In California alone, it is estimated that at least 80% of the gold is still in the ground. States like South Dakota, Wyoming, Colorado, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Georgia, and North Carolina (and yes, Virginia, Virginia) have all had their gold rushes, and doubtless still have significant untapped resources. There is gold in them thar hills. Getting to it and being allowed to mine it is a different story.

Point 3:
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One of the reasons why we finally completely went off the Gold Standard under Nixon was due to the outstanding notes far exceeding supply. Nixon was forced to consider taking a loan from the IMF just to cover existing gold bearer note calls- putting our financial control in the hands of an international body versus the ourselves.
Not only was the dollar unpegged from gold, but private ownership was opened up, as other than gold coin or jewelry. The effect this had was that the price of an ounce of gold went from $35 to roughly $700 in short order. Those gold bearer notes could now be redeemed for 1/20th of the amount of gold for a given dollar value. This made the value of a dollar in relation to gold, or the value of gold in relation to the dollar float, something we have now, traded openly as a commodity. Prior to that, the ways for a person to own gold included collecting coins, having geological samples, jewelry or stock to be used to make jewelry, or dental gold, whether in the form of teeth or fillings, or as gold foil packaged for dental use in making such fillings or teeth.

Point 4: Yes, silver, gold, platinum group metals are not just a store of value, but industrial metals as well. The older IBM mainframes had chips on a memory board with several thousand dollars worth of gold in them on one board, for instance. As chip manufacture has become more sophisticated, the amount of gold in an individual chip has decreased, but there are so darned many of them now. Recovering that gold is an industry in itself. It is also a metal prized for contacts because it doesn't corrode like silver or copper would. It has many uses, not just adornment as jewelry (which really was a store of wealth, too).  Any other form of wealth has value as well, this just places another force in the marketplace for the metal.
There is something intangible about the metal, however, that attracts humans to it. You never hear of someone getting "Niobium fever" or "Tantalum Fever", nor, for that matter, even "Silver Fever", it's Gold that attracts the eye, and is revered. Perhaps someday we will find another store of wealth, but for now it is the favored and universally accepted one.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 08:51:58 pm by Smokin Joe »
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Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

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Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2016, 09:49:28 pm »
So we are in agreement.  Money of any form, is just a convenient (very convenient) substitute for barter.  It provides a means of transferring value without having to trade (say) a physical water buffalo for a physical dining room set.

To a point we are.

Property is wealth.  Money represents wealth but is not wealth.  Again...if everyone were given a billion dollars, would everyone be rich?  No.  The control of the money supply and a tie to real wealth, is what makes money possible as a substitute for wealth.

See what you're doing here, though?  You're requiring something scarce (only because previously difficult to extract), and tying the world economy to a commodity that cannot (based on real, historical data) keep pace with the growth of real wealth.  Surely you see the difficulty.

Why is that a problem?  If there is more property but a fixed supply of gold, then each item will be worth less in gold.  Gold will increase in value. 

That's not a problem.  That's an adjustment in prices.

You say this, but I gave historical examples to the contrary.  Advantage: me.

I don't recall the examples.  WHERE has fiat currency survived for any period of time?

This makes no sense.  Either you're demanding 100% gold backing (in which case credit as it currently exists is virtually impossible), or you're allowing for non-gold transactions, in which case you've simply reverted to some version of the current situation.

So, because the dollar is gold-backed, I cannot lend you ten dollars so that you repay me $12 next week?

I cannot run a finance company with those sorts of agreements?

Fractional banking would become more limited with a gold-based currency; but is that a bad thing?  LOOK at the MOUNTAIN of DEBT that's been run up - and not just by governments; but by reckless private borrowing.

Banks existed and lent money long before the United States left the Gold Standard.

This is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle.  Either what we have now, or the gold standard.

We either have the gold standard or we do not.

ON or OFF.  Like a switch.  To have it incremental is to not have a gold standard; and as history tells us, that sort of incrementalism always goes one way.  To fiat; and to abuse of fiat; and to collapse.

Offline r9etb

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2016, 11:43:39 pm »
We either have the gold standard or we do not.

ON or OFF.  Like a switch.  To have it incremental is to not have a gold standard; and as history tells us, that sort of incrementalism always goes one way.  To fiat; and to abuse of fiat; and to collapse.

We're not having the same conversation, and that seems unlikely to change.  Have a good day.

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2016, 11:52:55 pm »
As you like.

But refusal to face realty, does not change reality.  We are headed to a crash.  And only sound money could have prevented this crash.

It seems to be a lesson that has to be constantly relearned; and is repeatedly rejected.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2016, 11:54:20 pm »
As you like.

But refusal to face realty, does not change reality.  We are headed to a crash.  And only sound money could have prevented this crash.

It seems to be a lesson that has to be constantly relearned; and is repeatedly rejected.
The only lesson people seem to consistently learn from history is that people fail to learn from history.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline IsailedawayfromFR

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2016, 02:46:45 am »
Our culture no longer corresponds to the type of "moral and religious" culture upon which the Founders built their Constitutional ideas.  And partly as a result, the current political structure no longer corresponds to the Constitution as it is understood by the Constitution Party. 

To take our political structure back to the sort of Strict Constructionist view of the Constitution without first establishing an underlying cultural foundation and broad consensus, is to invite a massive rejection.  Just consider how expensive a lack of consensus on slavery turned out to be.

It seems you are attempting to say that the foundations of this country, the Constitution,  does not represent this country's morals.  These are not just 'ideas' as you state, but the law of this country.

What are you attempting to say?  That we as a country need to change our laws as 'culture' is changed?

Culture is not what we are.  We are a nation of God and morality that created a country on that basis.  We call it the Constitution.

What do you wish we have?  Some type of tenuous way to make laws based upon 'culture'?  Sounds like a good way to destroy anything we have  made to date.

Whose 'culture' do you adhere to?  Millennials?  Islamists?  Do you see how that sounds?

No punishment, in my opinion, is too great, for the man who can build his greatness upon his country's ruin~  George Washington

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #34 on: August 11, 2016, 03:48:49 am »
Actually the Constitution lays down the structure of the government.  As well as its limitations - but it does not specify morality or any particular morality.

It guarantees, or tried to guarantee, that the culture could never be driven by the government - that the People, which were sovereign, would control both their culture and the government.

It has not worked out that way, however.  Bit by bit, the progressives removed the firewalls and the checks to Central Government power.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2016, 04:35:17 am »
Actually the Constitution lays down the structure of the government.  As well as its limitations - but it does not specify morality or any particular morality.

It guarantees, or tried to guarantee, that the culture could never be driven by the government - that the People, which were sovereign, would control both their culture and the government.

It has not worked out that way, however.  Bit by bit, the progressives removed the firewalls and the checks to Central Government power.
Fourth Amendment:

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    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

(Thou shalt not steal)

5th Amendment:
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No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not murder.

There are some definite moral features in the constraints to be placed on Government.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis

Offline JustPassinThru

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2016, 05:11:01 am »
Is that what you read into it?

I find that an extreme stretch.

That is describing the limits beyond which the government may not reach.  Powers it does not have.

It is not commanding the sovereign citizen to do ANYTHING - and that's also appropriate.

Morality comes from someplace other than government or government documents.

Online Smokin Joe

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Re: The Gold Standard
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2016, 05:54:23 am »
Is that what you read into it?

I find that an extreme stretch.

That is describing the limits beyond which the government may not reach.  Powers it does not have.

It is not commanding the sovereign citizen to do ANYTHING - and that's also appropriate.

Morality comes from someplace other than government or government documents.
In those documents we see reflected the morality of those who wrote them. Thus, limitations were placed on the mob (government) to protect the Rights of the individual.
Yes, morality isn't something that originates with Government or Government documents, it is at best reflected in those.
How God must weep at humans' folly! Stand fast! God knows what he is doing!
Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

C S Lewis