Author Topic: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie  (Read 6458 times)

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Offline musiclady

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2015, 01:52:02 am »
musiclady wrote above:
[[ The steel industry unfettered was a filthy business, and I'm glad they cracked down on it. ]]

Your point is well-taken, but...

... this is pretty much why there ain't all that much of a "steel industry" -in- the USA any more...

Well, the reason there's no longer a steel industry in Youngstown (where I grew up) is that they didn't update the operations and the fact that we were landlocked made the mills obsolete.

If you grew up with the level of pollution we had in Mahoning County you'd understand that the situation needed to be changed.   It wasn't environmental concerns that put Sheet and Tube out of business.  It was the lack of foresight and a lot of arrogance.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Offline musiclady

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2015, 02:14:45 am »
How is their religion directly responsible for their poverty and overpopulation?

I'll briefly explain it.

The caste system is deeply ingrained in Hinduism; a system where only a small percentage of Indians (Brahmins) are privileged, and the rest are in lower castes.  In the lowest caste, until recently, the religion demanded that the people could not be educated, could not work, should not be fed....  If they were starving in the street, they should be overlooked because it was their "Karma" to be poor.

Reincarnation is involved in the problem because it elevates the honor given to certain animals.  For example, rats could be humans in another life, so they cannot be killed.  If they are eating the grain (and they do), they cannot be stopped, so that the humans who need the bread from the grain die of starvation.

And it's part of the religion.

The religion also causes the pollution.  The Ganges is "sacred."   They toss dead bodies in it.  They toss sewage in it.  And they bathe in it and drink it.  It causes disease and death.

Hinduism is directly causal to the poverty in India.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Sanguine

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2015, 02:45:01 am »
I'll briefly explain it.

The caste system is deeply ingrained in Hinduism; a system where only a small percentage of Indians (Brahmins) are privileged, and the rest are in lower castes.  In the lowest caste, until recently, the religion demanded that the people could not be educated, could not work, should not be fed....  If they were starving in the street, they should be overlooked because it was their "Karma" to be poor.

Reincarnation is involved in the problem because it elevates the honor given to certain animals.  For example, rats could be humans in another life, so they cannot be killed.  If they are eating the grain (and they do), they cannot be stopped, so that the humans who need the bread from the grain die of starvation.

And it's part of the religion.

The religion also causes the pollution.  The Ganges is "sacred."   They toss dead bodies in it.  They toss sewage in it.  And they bathe in it and drink it.  It causes disease and death.

Hinduism is directly causal to the poverty in India.

Beautifully said.  Short and concise.

Offline musiclady

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2015, 02:50:53 am »
Beautifully said.  Short and concise.

Thank you, Sanguine!  There's much more, of course, but it needed to be in a nutshell.  ^-^
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2015, 04:19:33 am »
The religion also causes the pollution.  The Ganges is "sacred."   They toss dead bodies in it.  They toss sewage in it.  And they bathe in it and drink it.  It causes disease and death.

Do you think the people that do those things have access to showers and toilets? Do you think they have access to cremation or a proper burial for their dead? Do you think they would still do those things if they did? Religion isn't the reason why they live the way they do. Extreme poverty and overpopulation are why they live like that. I guarantee financially comfortable Indians are not bathing in and drinking from the Ganges. You blame their religion for the poverty, but the truth of it is if India had a realistic way of providing a comfortable life to most or all of its people it would. It doesn't because it can't. Blaming it on their religion is silly.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 05:39:36 am by Dexter »
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Online mountaineer

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2015, 12:45:14 pm »
   :banging:
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Offline musiclady

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2015, 12:45:31 pm »
Do you think the people that do those things have access to showers and toilets? Do you think they have access to cremation or a proper burial for their dead? Do you think they would still do those things if they did? Religion isn't the reason why they live the way they do. Extreme poverty and overpopulation are why they live like that. I guarantee financially comfortable Indians are not bathing in and drinking from the Ganges. You blame their religion for the poverty, but the truth of it is if India had a realistic way of providing a comfortable life to most or all of its people it would. It doesn't because it can't. Blaming it on their religion is silly.

I knew that giving you the facts wouldn't make a dent in your opinion, which is why I hesitated responding to you in the first place.

When one's mind is sealed shut as yours is, there is no room for fact......only feeling, which is what you clearly expressed here.

At least the truth has been posted.  Perhaps you'll actually think about it and understand at some point in the future.

That's the best we can hope for......
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2015, 12:46:40 pm »
   :banging:

You said it far better than I did.

Truth doesn't make a dent, does it?
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

bkepley

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2015, 12:50:33 pm »
Do you think the people that do those things have access to showers and toilets? Do you think they have access to cremation or a proper burial for their dead? Do you think they would still do those things if they did? Religion isn't the reason why they live the way they do. Extreme poverty and overpopulation are why they live like that. I guarantee financially comfortable Indians are not bathing in and drinking from the Ganges. You blame their religion for the poverty, but the truth of it is if India had a realistic way of providing a comfortable life to most or all of its people it would. It doesn't because it can't. Blaming it on their religion is silly.

I don't know why you are so opposed to this, to me it is perfectly clear that religion has an effect on the economic success of a country.  Just look at the difference between Catholic and Protestant countries.  This is not to say that Protestant countries are superior.  I have read that Catholic countries, despite their relative poverty have the happiest people on earth.  Money isn't everything.

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2015, 12:52:02 pm »
I knew that giving you the facts wouldn't make a dent in your opinion, which is why I hesitated responding to you in the first place.

When one's mind is sealed shut as yours is, there is no room for fact......only feeling, which is what you clearly expressed here.

At least the truth has been posted.  Perhaps you'll actually think about it and understand at some point in the future.

That's the best we can hope for......

You didn't actually respond to anything I said in my post. That should be easy if facts and reality are truly on your side.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2015, 12:55:27 pm »
You didn't actually respond to anything I said in my post. That should be easy if facts and reality are truly on your side.

You live in your own universe, don't you, Dex?  A made up world where truth doesn't matter when you feel something so passionately.


I suppose you approve of the Hindu practice of throwing their baby girls in the Ganges too.

You know, all those religions are all alike...........    **nononono*
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2015, 12:59:54 pm »
I don't know why you are so opposed to this, to me it is perfectly clear that religion has an effect on the economic success of a country.  Just look at the difference between Catholic and Protestant countries.  This is not to say that Protestant countries are superior.  I have read that Catholic countries, despite their relative poverty have the happiest people on earth.  Money isn't everything.

Do you think the United States would be like India if the majority religion was Hinduism? Do you think India would magically solve their poverty and overpopulation issues if they all converted to Christianity? I don't, because that's ridiculous. Their religion is not the driving force behind poverty and overpopulation.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2015, 01:02:42 pm »
I suppose you approve of the Hindu practice of throwing their baby girls in the Ganges too.

You know, all those religions are all alike...........    **nononono*

Is that the norm in Hinduism or something done by a handful of nut jobs in a country of 1.3 billion? Are all Christians responsible for it every time some lunatic that claims to follow Christ does something insane?
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bkepley

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2015, 01:05:05 pm »
Do you think the United States would be like India if the majority religion was Hinduism? Do you think India would magically solve their poverty and overpopulation issues if they all converted to Christianity? I don't, because that's ridiculous. Their religion is not the driving force behind poverty and overpopulation.

Yes and yes.  Religion is just the motivating force of a country.  Do you not think that North Korea would become as economically successful as South Korea if it just became more like South Korea?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 01:05:32 pm by bkepley »

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2015, 01:10:17 pm »
Yes and yes. 

Wow.

Do you not think that North Korea would become as economically successful as South Korea if it just became more like South Korea?

If they overthrew their dictatorship, restored relations with the west and embraced capitalism they would very likely find some of the same success as South Korea. None of that has anything to do with religion.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 01:10:48 pm by Dexter »
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Offline EC

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2015, 01:14:51 pm »
Really? The rigorously enforced state religion of North Korea is the cult of the Dear Leader. How is that NOT having an impact on the country?

And yes - it's a religion, by nearly all measures.
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bkepley

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2015, 01:17:33 pm »
Wow.

If they overthrew their dictatorship, restored relations with the west and embraced capitalism they would very likely find some of the same success as South Korea. None of that has anything to do with religion.

You don't believe religion has a role in the kind of government you have, the kind of culture you have? I'm sure you do.   You just have some sort of obsession with religion I think.  Think of it as a culture's philosophy if it bothers you so much that it is a religion.

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2015, 01:24:54 pm »
Really? The rigorously enforced state religion of North Korea is the cult of the Dear Leader. How is that NOT having an impact on the country?

And yes - it's a religion, by nearly all measures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea

Quote
Based on estimates from the late 1990s[8] and the 2000s,[1][9] North Korea is mostly atheist and agnostic, with the religious life dominated by the traditions of Korean shamanism and Chondoism. There are small communities of Buddhists (previously dominant) and Christians.

I guess you could call their forced worship of the Kim family a religion. I wouldn't, but meh. The ruthlessness of the Kim family is why North Korea is the way it is. It has nothing to do with their religion. Do you think North Korea would change if its people suddenly became Christians?
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bkepley

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2015, 01:32:31 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_North_Korea

I guess you could call their forced worship of the Kim family a religion. I wouldn't, but meh. The ruthlessness of the Kim family is why North Korea is the way it is. It has nothing to do with their religion. Do you think North Korea would change if its people suddenly became Christians?

Absolutely!  It wouldn't be the same for long if the country became serious Christian.  There's no way.

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2015, 01:32:47 pm »
You don't believe religion has a role in the kind of government you have, the kind of culture you have? I'm sure you do.   You just have some sort of obsession with religion I think.  Think of it as a culture's philosophy if it bothers you so much that it is a religion.

A role? A subtle influence perhaps? Sure it does. That doesn't make religion a determining factor when it comes to the success of a country. It doesn't mean India would find a way to make food, water and homes appear out of thin air if only they were Christian.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2015, 01:35:39 pm »
Absolutely!  It wouldn't be the same for long if the country became serious Christian.  There's no way.

Can you elaborate? What exactly would change? Kim Jong Un would still be a ruthless little tyrant with secret police and work camps.
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bkepley

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2015, 01:37:22 pm »
A role? A subtle influence perhaps? Sure it does. That doesn't make religion a determining factor when it comes to the success of a country. It doesn't mean India would find a way to make food, water and homes appear out of thin air if only they were Christian.

I think it only seems subtle now to you since it is dying out here but you ignore the past.  Explain the economic differences between Catholic and Protestant countries.  Are the Catholics just somehow unlucky?

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2015, 01:38:35 pm »
I think it only seems subtle now to you since it is dying out here but you ignore the past.  Explain the economic differences between Catholic and Protestant countries.  Are the Catholics just somehow unlucky?

Explain how religion is responsible for the economic differences between Catholic and Protestant countries.
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bkepley

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2015, 01:43:53 pm »
Explain how religion is responsible for the economic differences between Catholic and Protestant countries.

You are only denying the obvious.  There are many sources for information on that.

Start here: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

Offline Dexter

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Re: This lake in India is straight out of a horror movie
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2015, 01:50:23 pm »
You are only denying the obvious.  There are many sources for information on that.

Start here: http://www.theguardian.com/education/2011/oct/31/economics-religion-research

Correlation does not imply causation. Also the article you linked admits that even if religion does play a role it is just one of many things that determine the overall success of a country. Oh, and I was kind of hoping you would make your argument in your own words. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 01:52:38 pm by Dexter »
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