Author Topic: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise  (Read 3867 times)

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Online Bigun

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2015, 03:27:26 am »
Between this issue and the Patriot Act, I think Rand Paul is doing a very good job differentiating himself from the rest of the Republican field.  I believe there are far more freedom-loving, war-weary and war-wary Republicans out there than Karl Rove, John McCain and Lindsey Graham would care to admit.  In response to those who are attacking Paul for stating the obvious, I have a simple question:

Has the neocon approach to the Middle East worked?

Nothing has worked very well and nothing will work until we decide to start working on the disease rather than halfheartedly treating symptoms as we have been doing.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2015, 03:29:38 am »
Nothing has worked very well and nothing will work until we decide to start working on the disease rather than halfheartedly treating symptoms as we have been doing.

How do we work on the disease?
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Online Bigun

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2015, 03:32:27 am »
How do we work on the disease?

As I have told you many times before! We remove the Mullahs from control in Iran!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2015, 03:33:21 am »
As I have told you many times before! We remove the Mullahs from control in Iran!

You believe that will end extremism in the Middle East?
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Online Bigun

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2015, 03:36:49 am »
You believe that will end extremism in the Middle East?

Not entirely but it will take it down to levels so much lower than what we are currently seeing that it will hardly be noticeable.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2015, 03:39:28 am »
Not entirely but it will take it down to levels so much lower than what we are currently seeing that it will hardly be noticeable.

I think you're completely wrong.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Online Bigun

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2015, 03:40:11 am »
I think you're completely wrong.

You can think whatever the hell you like!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2015, 03:54:43 am »
As I have told you many times before! We remove the Mullahs from control in Iran!
How do we remove those mullahs?
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Paladin

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2015, 04:10:53 am »
Quote
Fiorina then outlined her ISIS strategy, saying, “I would do very specific things. First, instead of having a Camp David conference to talk our Arab allies into a bad deal with Iran, I would have had a Camp David conference to talk with our Arab allies about how we can support them to fight ISIS. Let me give you very specific examples. The Kurds have been asking us to arm them for three years, we still have not. The Jordanians have been asking us to provide them with bombs and materiel. We know King Abdullah of Jordan, I’ve known him for many years. He took the appropriate leadership steps when a Jordanian pilot was burned alive. He was here in this country asking us for bombs and materiel, we haven’t provided him with any of them. He’s now looking to China for that. The Egyptian president, a very brave and pious Muslim, who has said there is a cancer in the heart of Islam, has asked us to share intelligence. We are not. The Turks have asked us to help them topple Bashar al-Assad, we are not. There are a whole set of things that we’ve been asked to do by our allies who know this is their fight, and we’re not doing any of them.”

http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/05/27/fiorina-titles-are-just-titles-hillarys-track-record-is-me-collapse-and-the-russian-reset/
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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2015, 05:31:34 am »
Waging war in the Middle East won't protect us from terrorism. Did you know more people in the U.S are killed by accidental falls every year than have ever been killed by terrorists? It's a completely irrational fear and I am sick of soldiers losing their lives over it. Do you think ISIS is capable of invading the United States with an actual army? We have 75 million gun owners and the most powerful military force the world has ever seen. You are not in danger of being killed by terrorists; stop letting the media pollute your mind with fear and propaganda.
Despite all our guns, armed Americans couldn't stop 19 muslims, armed with box-cutters, from killing 3,000 people and causing $billions in damage...in just a few hours.  After that President Bush did a excellent job of taking the war to the terrorist and we were safe.  I felt safer.  But the Kenyan President couldn't stop two muslims in Boston from buying pressure cooker pots and forever tarnishing an American tradition.  Even with the most powerful military force the world has ever seen our own soldiers stationed in freaking Fort Hood Texas could not prevent a muslim from killing 19 others. 

I couldn't write "completely irrational fear" about homeland terrorism without irony.  What "media" is polluting our minds with fear and propaganda? ...it seems to me, that most the media agree with you that homeland security, and terrorism is a non-story(except when a Republican is bashing his own party.)

I'm getting tired of defending Senator Paul because he needs to stand out from the crowd.  That crowd is attractive to much of the GOP base.  Maybe standing out is standing apart.

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2015, 06:54:24 am »
How do we remove those mullahs?

Bullets are pretty cheap. Not terribly ethical, and Israel would get blamed, but it is doable.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2015, 12:50:52 pm »
Yes Rand, it's not the near barbaric culture, or the radicalized religion or the millennia-old grudges against all things Western or the near total lack of respect for human life that's so entwined in their history that gave rise to Isis.

It's the Reublicans.

Right...

I think Rand may have cost himself the nomination with this little exchange on MSNBC.

It will be interesting to see how he tries to back it down.  He wants to win, and he has to understand that the vast majority of Republican primary voters don't blame Republicans for ISIS.

It's factually inaccurate, and stupid politically for him to do so.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2015, 12:55:55 pm »
How do we remove those mullahs?

With just a little help from us we wont have to remove them! The Iranian people will do it for us!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2015, 01:03:40 pm »
http://www.breitbart.com/video/2015/05/27/fiorina-titles-are-just-titles-hillarys-track-record-is-me-collapse-and-the-russian-reset/

She's espousing a LOT better plan than I've seen anywhere else to date. I'm sure she would heed advice to do the rest of what's necessary as well.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 01:04:16 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online massadvj

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2015, 01:14:45 pm »
She's espousing a LOT better plan than I've seen anywhere else to date. I'm sure she would heed advice to do the rest of what's necessary as well.

Since ISIS and Iran are enemies, what is our vested interest in killing them off?  Why not secure and protect our allies Kurdistan, Jordan and the rest from attack and so make softer the other targets ISIS seeks such as Assad and the mullahs?  We can always take ISIS out later.

If people are thinking ISIS is a greater threat to US security than Iranian nuclear weapons then they are seriously delusional, and drinking Rupert's Fox News Kool Aid.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #40 on: May 28, 2015, 08:39:14 pm »
With just a little help from us we wont have to remove them! The Iranian people will do it for us!
It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979.

When the Shah's government fell, this external role by the CIA contributed to resentment of the US, which continues until today. Not everybody, but very significant.

If the Iranians are to get a better government, the US had best not be viewed as manipulating, conspiring, facilitating the transition in a major way.

Overall there is NOT much evidence of fairly elected governments getting started and succeeding in muslim countries. Iran would kind of be an exception.

FYI outside Iran, the largest Iranian population is in greater Lost Angeles, California. Most do not talk about politics much. Something people inside Iran learn, whether during the Shah, or since.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline musiclady

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2015, 10:40:30 pm »
Since ISIS and Iran are enemies, what is our vested interest in killing them off?  Why not secure and protect our allies Kurdistan, Jordan and the rest from attack and so make softer the other targets ISIS seeks such as Assad and the mullahs?  We can always take ISIS out later.

If people are thinking ISIS is a greater threat to US security than Iranian nuclear weapons then they are seriously delusional, and drinking Rupert's Fox News Kool Aid.

I watch Fox pretty regularly and don't believe I've ever heard, from any of the disparate voices on Fox, that ISIS is a greater threat than Iranian nuclear weapons.

Who is saying that?

Just for my own info.......

(And wondering if covering the fact that ISIS is slaughtering, raping and enslaving Christians makes an implication that ISIS is a 'greater' threat).
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 10:42:01 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2015, 03:26:08 am »
truth_seeker asks above:
[[ How do we remove those mullahs? ]]

How about with bombuhs ??

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2015, 03:30:09 am »
It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979.

When the Shah's government fell, this external role by the CIA contributed to resentment of the US, which continues until today. Not everybody, but very significant.

If the Iranians are to get a better government, the US had best not be viewed as manipulating, conspiring, facilitating the transition in a major way.

Overall there is NOT much evidence of fairly elected governments getting started and succeeding in muslim countries. Iran would kind of be an exception.

FYI outside Iran, the largest Iranian population is in greater Lost Angeles, California. Most do not talk about politics much. Something people inside Iran learn, whether during the Shah, or since.

Who do you imagine put the Shah in power in what was then called Persia?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2015, 03:30:15 am »
mass asserts above:
[[ Since ISIS and Iran are enemies...]]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend (or so it is said).

Iran and isis may be opposing forces within islam, but they share a common "enemy" that both hate more than each other.

When it comes to destroying Israel and defeating the United States, watch isis and Iran join as partners...

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2015, 04:52:29 am »
Who do you imagine put the Shah in power in what was then called Persia?
I wrote:

"It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979."
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2015, 01:25:55 pm »
I wrote:

"It is widely believed the US CIA facilitated removal of an elected government in Iran, and set the stage for the Shah's government to rule until 1979."

Indeed you did! My apologies for my error.

And thirty years later - because the GREAT Jimmy Carter - rectified that and brought about, over time, what we have today.  The Shah was an SOB but he was OUR SOB!


« Last Edit: May 29, 2015, 01:30:02 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Rand Paul blames 'hawks in our party' for Islamic State's rise
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2015, 03:59:43 am »
Indeed you did! My apologies for my error.

And thirty years later - because the GREAT Jimmy Carter - rectified that and brought about, over time, what we have today.  The Shah was an SOB but he was OUR SOB!
The pragmatic truth in almost all the Mideast, and the muslim world, is it takes a firm, cruel authoritarian to govern those people.

Some people have worked to get them into democracy. GWB and the purple fingers.

Today in Iran the religious police enforce veils for women. I believe they have been known to bury people, stone people, etc.

Almost my entire adult life has exposed me to people from the religion, from several religions including islam.  Very few risk being "political" or to speak freely once they get to the US.

Because there are people over here, that will send signals back home, to take steps against somebody's family.

So the safe thing is to keep quiet, thank your lucky stars you are in the US, I have seen it over, and over. I have asked people about it, and they just nod yes.

I have known Jews, Christians, muslims and Bahai from Iran; Christians from Egypt, Christians from Jordan, Christians from Syria, Jews and muslims from Israel, muslims from Oman, etc.

Generally they are guarded, not open. I think it is regional and cultural, as well as religious. Don't want to be publicly on the record, should the power change hands. Safe instead of sorry. They tend to not have uprisings to throw off bonds. Too risky.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln