Author Topic: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It  (Read 1730 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline massadvj

  • Editorial Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,336
  • Gender: Male
Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« on: December 20, 2014, 02:50:19 pm »

http://time.com/3642353/rand-paul-cuba-rubio-isolationists-just-dont-get-it/

Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It

Paul is the junior U.S. Senator for Kentucky.

Let's hope cooler heads will ultimately prevail and we unleash a trade tsunami that washes the Castros once and for all into the sea.

I grew up in a family that despised, not only communism, but collectivism, socialism and any “ism” that deprived the individual of his or her natural rights.

As a kid, I listened to the stories of an old Ukrainian fisherman who talked of fighting the Bolsheviks. More times than I can remember, I’ve heard horror stories of those who fled Castro’s Cuba. I ran for office to fight for the individual and against statism of any kind anywhere and yet… I think a policy of isolationism toward Cuba is misplaced and hasn’t worked.

I support engagement, diplomacy, and trade with Cuba, China, Vietnam, and many countries with less than stellar human rights records, because I believe that once enslaved people taste freedom and see the products of capitalism they will become hungry for freedom themselves.

President George W. Bush wrote that “trade creates the habits of freedom,” and trade provides the seeds of freedom that begin “to create the expectations of democracy.” Once trade begins it is hard to hide the amazing products of capitalism. The Soviets used to produce documentaries depicting poverty in America but it backfired when Russian viewers noticed that even in the poorest of circumstances you could still see televisions flickering in the windows. Once trade is enhanced with Cuba, it will be impossible to hide the bounty that freedom provides.

A group of youngsters in Central Havana sit on a street corner to discuss the latest news of the Spanish La Liga football league. Their hair is styled like their idols'—soccer stars and Reggaeton singers.
In route to his job as a welder, 62-year-old Carlos stops at a government cafeteria to buy cigarettes.
Cockfighting, a Cuban tradition, takes place in an anti-aircraft bunker to avoid the police. Fighting is not forbidden, but gambling, which is always present at the matches, is.
 
The supporters of the embargo against Cuba speak with heated passion but fall strangely silent when asked how trade with Cuba is so different than trade with Russia or China or Vietnam.

It is an inconsistent and incoherent position to support trade with other communist countries, but not communist Cuba.

Even the supporters of the embargo agree that it has not worked. A policy of isolationism with Cuba and engagement with China and Vietnam does not make any sense. Communism can’t survive the captivating allure of capitalism. Let’s overwhelm the Castro regime with iPhones, iPads, American cars, and American ingenuity.

My family’s opposition to communism was so fierce that when Nixon said the U.S. would trade with Red China our response was heated and passionately opposed. But over time my family and many conservatives came to believe that trade was better than war and more effective. While China’s human rights record leaves much to be desired, our engagement and trade has without question helped to open Chinese society.

Over the years, many conservatives have come to believe that trade with China and Vietnam is the best way to overcome and defeat communism. Trade and relations also make it less likely that we ever go to war with China, because the two countries have become economically intertwined.

That being said, it is ultimately Congress not the President who will debate and decide whether the embargo will end. Congress, not the Executive, has dominion over many aspects of the trade and travel embargo. I doubt Congress will vote to end the embargo at this time, but my hope is that restoring diplomatic ties will induce Cubans to rise up and demand more freedom and more trade with the U.S.

Those who love freedom and want to see a free Cuba should continue to demand nothing less than a democratic republic that defends the rights of the individual. After 50 years of embargo and no evidence of tyranny losing its grip, maybe it’s time for a new approach.

Public opinion is changing on this issue. Young Cuban-Americans have shifted their position on the embargo, and many young people support a change in policy. American farmers and other exporters would benefit by being able to sell more products to a country right off the coast of Florida.

Doug Bandow, of the CATO Institute writes that proponents of the embargo have it all wrong when they make the fear mongering claim that diplomacy with Cuba will make America less safe. Bandow argues that “America has engaged in years of on-and-off discussions with North Korea’s Kim dynasty stretching back to the Clinton administration. Under President Obama Washington has been negotiating with Iran’s government for months: most people recognize that a diplomatic settlement, no matter how difficult to achieve, would be better than war.”

For 70 years we had diplomatic relations with Russia, despite the gulags, despite the atrocities of Stalin and others. Reagan, himself, engaged and negotiated with Communist Russia.

The 50-year embargo against Cuba has not worked. If the goal was regime change, then it sure does not seem to be working. It also hurts the people more than the regime, because the regime can blame the embargo for hardship.

Emotions understandably run high for those whose parents and grandparents had their land and their lives taken from them. But if our goal is to defeat Castro and defeat communism then perhaps we should step back and ask ourselves, “Has the embargo worked?” If we allow the passions to cool, maybe just maybe, we might conclude that trade is better than war and that capitalism wins every time a people get a chance to see its products.

Let’s hope cooler heads will ultimately prevail and we unleash a trade tsunami that washes the Castros once and for all into the sea.

Offline alicewonders

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,021
  • Gender: Female
  • Live life-it's too short to butt heads w buttheads
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2014, 03:46:44 pm »
Yeah, the Cuban people need economic freedom.  This wasn't the way to do it.  Rand has lost me on this.

Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

We told you Trump would win - bigly!

Offline massadvj

  • Editorial Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 13,336
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2014, 03:56:36 pm »
I ran into this on Facebook, and it seems apropos here:

They started with a cage containing five monkeys. Inside the cage, they hung a banana on a string with a set of stairs placed under it. Before long, a monkey went to the stairs and started to climb towards the banana. As soon as he started up the stairs, the psychologists sprayed all of the other monkeys with ice cold water. After a while, another monkey made an attempt to obtain the banana.  As soon as his foot touched the stairs, all of the other monkeys were sprayed with ice cold water. It's wasn't long before all of the other monkeys would physically prevent any monkey from climbing the stairs. Now, the psychologists shut off the cold water, removed one monkey from the cage and replaced it with a new one. The new monkey saw the banana and started to climb the stairs. To his surprise and horror, all of the other monkeys attacked him.  After another attempt and attack, he discovered that if he tried to climb the stairs, he would be assaulted. Next they removed another of the original five monkeys and replaced it with a new one. The newcomer went to the stairs and was attacked. The previous newcomer took part in the punishment with enthusiasm! Likewise, they replaced a third original monkey with a new one, then a fourth, then the fifth. Every time the newest monkey tried to climb the stairs, he was attacked. The monkeys had no idea why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they were beating any monkey that tried. After replacing all the original monkeys, none of the remaining monkeys had ever been sprayed with cold water. Nevertheless, no monkey ever again approached the stairs to try for the banana. Why not? Because as far as they know that's the way it's always been around here.

And that's why we have an embargo on Cuba.

Also, the story could be a good metaphor for the Republican presidential primary.

Offline ChrisChristie4Pres

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64
  • Gender: Male
    • Alpha Strategy Group
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2014, 04:32:47 pm »
Is it just me or did Obama's Administration lift the ban on Cuba during his first Presidency. I clearly remember writing an article on said activity. Media ran out of news i guesss

The U.S. economic embargo net around Cuba is replete with gaps. Rather than purchase products directly from the U.S., Cuba has long been able to buy American products via third parties, such as Mexico, Panama, and Venezuela. Still, that trade hurdle augments their costs. High prices for American goods constitute a considerable barrier to the average Cuban consumer. The fortunate few include Cubans with relatives abroad who financially aid their families through remittances.

While Cuban agricultural products—particularly sugar, rum, and tobacco—found markets outside the U.S., the country had not succeeded in completely replacing Americans’ absent impact on tourism. European and Canadian travelers fill part of that void, but not all. Particularly in the wake of the Soviet Union’s collapse, Canadians and Europeans are among the largest foreign investors in the Cuban economy. Venezuela and China have also made considerable investments in Cuba. But these investments pale in contrast to what Americans would directly invest were it not for the embargo. The embargo has also extricated the average Cuban from the technological revolution of the past couple of decades.

Offline EdinVA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,584
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2014, 04:34:33 pm »
Everything paul says could also be said about north korea... what is the difference?
We need to be consistent in our positions and actions which should be based on facts and not academic theory.

Why did we impose the embargo with cuba/nk to begin with?
Did we achieve our objective?

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,386
  • Gender: Male
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 04:44:18 pm »
I recall  President Reagan said "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."

He met with Gorbachev, and even when they did NOT agree on issues, the agreed to meet again.



"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Online DCPatriot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45,977
  • Gender: Male
  • "...and the winning number is...not yours!
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 04:58:01 pm »
There's no reason why Cuba can't become the 'new' Cancun.  It's just a question of how far the government will go in allowing it.

I predict Havana will have its own MLB team.  And a new class of Cuban all-stars will be forthcoming.

Understand that people lost homes and fortunes and businesses when Batista scooted. But fifty years is long enough.
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - David Burge (Iowahawk)

"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline ChrisChristie4Pres

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 64
  • Gender: Male
    • Alpha Strategy Group
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 05:01:44 pm »
I guess Cuba has been the ying to our yang for so long that some people feel incomplete without it.
Quote
I recall  President Reagan said "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 05:20:53 pm »
There's no reason why Cuba can't become the 'new' Cancun.  It's just a question of how far the government will go in allowing it.

I predict Havana will have its own MLB team.  And a new class of Cuban all-stars will be forthcoming.

Understand that people lost homes and fortunes and businesses when Batista scooted. But fifty years is long enough.

Would you be as understanding if it was YOUR homes, YOUR fortunes and YOUR homeland that were stolen from you?

The Jewish people fought to get heir homeland back for two millennia. Fifty years isn't all that long.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 05:28:52 pm »
Cuba’s Coast Guard sinks boat carrying 32 refugees who were trying to reach Fla

Survivor says her husband went missing. The other occupants were shipped back to the island. Women and children freed, men still in custody.

Saturday, December 20, 2014

Masiel González Castellano, a woman who survived the attack and whose husband is allegedly missing, told reporters in Miami during a telephone conversation from Matanzas, Cuba, that her husband, Leosbel Díaz Beoto, was nowhere to be found after falling overboard.
“We were screaming and crying for help as the boat was sinking. But they ignored us. Instead, they continued charging against our boat. Some people dove in the water and others stayed aboard as the boat sank,” the Miami Herald reported Gonzalez, who was contacted during a press conference hosted in Miami by the Democracy Movement, as saying. “They knew there were children aboard, but continued to charge against us. They didn’t care.”

http://en.mercopress.com/2014/12/20/cuba-s-coast-guard-sinks-boat-carrying-32-refugees-who-were-trying-to-reach-fla.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 05:29:53 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Lando Lincoln

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15,517
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2014, 06:14:57 pm »
Thanks for posting that Luis.  That should be the lede on the news. But, *yawn*... guess not.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 06:18:22 pm by Lando Lincoln »
There are some among us who live in rooms of experience we can never enter.
John Steinbeck

Offline Bigun

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 51,488
  • Gender: Male
  • Resistance to Tyrants is Obedience to God
    • The FairTax Plan
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2014, 06:18:36 pm »
There's no reason why Cuba can't become the 'new' Cancun. 

No reason on earth except for a couple of murdering ba$bleep named Castro and an IDIOT named Obama!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2014, 07:38:11 pm »
There's no reason why Cuba can't become the 'new' Cancun.  It's just a question of how far the government will go in allowing it.

I predict Havana will have its own MLB team.  And a new class of Cuban all-stars will be forthcoming.

Understand that people lost homes and fortunes and businesses when Batista scooted. But fifty years is long enough.

BTW... Cuba will not become the "new" Cancun any time soon. It will become the new Sun City, and thirty or so years from now, progressives from academia, entertainment and the media will be attacking industry for embracing the opportunity that Obama has given them (an entire nation of indentured servants working for dirt cheap wages and not allowed access to the beach and polo clubs dotting the island) banding together to sing some bullshit song and hold up signs condemning capitalism. They'll conveniently forget that it was progressives who helped cement in the apartheid in Cuba.

From Breitbart, 19 Dec 2014:

Quote
CASTRO TO POCKET 92% OF WORKER SALARIES FROM FOREIGN COMPANIES

Just one day before President Obama announced sweeping changes that would allow potential American investment in Cuba, the Cuban government apparently had begun preparing itself by announcing new measures that would allow Cubans who work for foreign companies to keep only 8% of their salaries.

In an official announcement in state newspaper Granma, government officials announced a system in which employees who work for corporations with foreign capital will be paid two Cuban Pesos for every Convertible Cuban Peso (CUC) the corporation actually pays them. The Convertible Peso (CUP) is almost exclusively for the use of tourists and is of significantly greater value; one CUC is the equivalent of an American dollar and the equivalent of 26.5 CUPs. The other 24 CUPs Cuban workers will not receive amount to 92% of their salaries.

Granma explains:

The payment will now be agreed to with businesses possessing foreign capital taking into consideration the salaries issued to workers in jobs of similar complexity in entities in the same area or sector of our geographic area, the salary scale that is applied in the country (as a reference point) and some additional payments for the corresponding law.

In other words, even if a foreign company has the means to pay more than a Cuban company, the worker will receive the same salary as if he were working for a Cuban company, and the government will pocket the rest.

The Havana Times, an online publication dedicated to issues related to Cuba, notes that Zamira Marín Triana, vice-minister of Labor and Social Security, described the new laws as offering a “significant increase” for workers.

In addition to the 92% of salaries being pocketed by the Cuban government, Cuban government employment offices will charge 20% of the salary of each worker they connect to the corporation for the service of finding said corporation employees. Employees will also lose 9.09% of their salaries for “vacation time.”

The new measures, though enacted hours before the release of USAID worker Alan Gross and President Obama’s announcement of new trade measures, should inspire caution in American companies that would like to do work on the island. American companies would be keeping very little of the money they invest and earn in business on the island, while lining the pockets of the communist government. As Raúl Castro noted in his speech, the Cuban government made no concessions in this recent negotiation with the United States, save the freedom of Gross and one other American agent whom President Obama did not name, which leaves it open to sanctioning American companies who dare attempt to do business on the island as they see fit.

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/12/19/castro-to-pocket-92-of-worker-salaries-from-foreign-companies/

Everyone is trying to put lipstick on this pig.

It's a pig.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 07:39:03 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2014, 07:41:34 pm »
Thanks for posting that Luis.  That should be the lede on the news. But, *yawn*... guess not.

Yes.

Thanks to President Obama US citizens will be able to travel to Cuba on vacation, enjoy the beaches, the casinos, the resorts and and the whores, but Cubans trying to come to the US will be killed.

What other places (other than Cuba) can you think of where they kill you if you try to leave?
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 28,386
  • Gender: Male
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2014, 07:52:04 pm »
Yes.

Thanks to President Obama US citizens will be able to travel to Cuba on vacation, enjoy the beaches, the casinos, the resorts and and the whores, but Cubans trying to come to the US will be killed.

What other places (other than Cuba) can you think of where they kill you if you try to leave?
That was true for East Germany until things changed, people on both sides of the Wall simply hammered it down, and the East German police and military (as well as the USSR) stood by.

Time marches on. Obama isn't rewarding the Castros for past bad behavior; he's opening the door for a better and changed future.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Luis Gonzalez

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,621
  • Gender: Male
    • Boiling Frogs
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2014, 08:10:29 pm »
That was true for East Germany until things changed, people on both sides of the Wall simply hammered it down, and the East German police and military (as well as the USSR) stood by.

Time marches on. Obama isn't rewarding the Castros for past bad behavior; he's opening the door for a better and changed future.

How do you hammer down the ocean?

It's a pig, irrespective of how much lipstick you put on it.

We've been out of Vietnam since 1975, re-established trade twenty years ago, and nothing has changed. Thousands are still drowning triyng to get out.

In East Germany, Gorbachev had to face the effects of Reagan's policies. The USSR was bankrupt and something had to go, so he withdrew the Red Army. Don't let yourself get carried away with the whole "bring the wall down" romantic idea of what happened in East Germany. Reagan broke the USSR by engaging them in a weapons race that he NEW they could not afford. The USSR had no one to turn to to ask for money to maintain their empire afloat so they had to make some hard choices. One of those choices was pulling the Red Army out of East Germany.

Cuba has been financed by the USSR, China and more recently Venezuela. China is no longer interested in financing the Castro regime, and Russia and Venezuela are bankrupt, so just at that precise moment when Cuba KNEW that they were all alone, the Communist Muslim apostate currently residing at 1600 Pennsylvania came to the rescue.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline Kansas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2014, 02:32:41 am »
How do you hammer down the ocean?

It's a pig, irrespective of how much lipstick you put on it.

We've been out of Vietnam since 1975, re-established trade twenty years ago, and nothing has changed. Thousands are still drowning triyng to get out.

In East Germany, Gorbachev had to face the effects of Reagan's policies. The USSR was bankrupt and something had to go, so he withdrew the Red Army. Don't let yourself get carried away with the whole "bring the wall down" romantic idea of what happened in East Germany. Reagan broke the USSR by engaging them in a weapons race that he NEW they could not afford. The USSR had no one to turn to to ask for money to maintain their empire afloat so they had to make some hard choices. One of those choices was pulling the Red Army out of East Germany.

Cuba has been financed by the USSR, China and more recently Venezuela. China is no longer interested in financing the Castro regime, and Russia and Venezuela are bankrupt, so just at that precise moment when Cuba KNEW that they were all alone, the Communist Muslim apostate currently residing at 1600 Pennsylvania came to the rescue.

Luis, your are exactly right.  This is the part that disappoints me the most.  With Russia bankrupt and Venzuela on the verge the Castro regime was out of sugar daddies but then came Owebama to take the place.    You can't tell me this was anything but Owebama saving fellow believers in Marxism.  However I don't think it will save them but will delay their fall.  It's a shame Fidel was able to carry on his murderous ways well into old age.  While I am sure the Castro government will fall Owebama has given them a lifeline for a while.
"How do you tell a communist?  Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin.  How do you tell an anti-communist?  It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin"-Ronald Reagan

Offline Fishrrman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,514
  • Gender: Male
  • Dumbest member of the forum
Re: Rand Paul: Cuba Isolationists Just Don’t Get It
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2014, 02:53:17 am »
Luis wrote above:
[[ China is no longer interested in financing the Castro regime, and Russia and Venezuela are bankrupt, so just at that precise moment when Cuba KNEW that they were all alone, the Communist Muslim apostate currently residing at 1600 Pennsylvania came to the rescue. ]]

That's may be the underlying reason, I think you're the first one I've seen mention it, Luis. Kudos on that!

No other communists could be found to prop up Cuba, so Hussein jumped in as "the communist of last resort"...

Unfortunately, freedom-loving Americans will be the ones shoveling dinero down that hole...