Muslim Student Challenges Jewish Professor, He Shuts Her Up On The Spot

[truth_seeker]

Not just naive, but intellectually vacuous and predictable.  Government is corrupt, so we need more government to keep it from becoming corrupt.  It is absent any reasonable logic, which is why you can never really win an argument with a liberal.

Communism will work when it is finally done correctly.

[musiclady]

This is a quote from Dex4974 from another thread. This is the guy some here are accusing of being a liberal:

"... if there was a viable third party..."

Isn't that the whole idea behind the Tea Party?

How does agreeing with the idea behind the Tea Party movement suddenly make someone a liberal in this forum?

Truth is that this argument seems to be developing into a collectivism v. individualism fight.

"If you don't agree with me and say what I want you to say, then you're obviously one of them."

A single post does not a worldview make.

The greater opus tells a different story.

[Dexter]

Why is it so important to spend so much time concentrating on what my label is? If you disagree with me you should concentrate on attacking the logic I'm using to make my point instead of obsessing over what you should be calling me.

[musiclady]

Why is it so important to spend so much time concentrating on what my label is? If you disagree with me you should concentrate on attacking the logic I'm using to make my point instead of obsessing over what you should be calling me.

Who's obsessing?

But it does make a difference if you come from a leftist worldview.

Most of the time I ignore your posts because there's not much there there.

But on this thread you made a parallel between the Obama gov't opposing the Tea Party in the same way they opposed Occupy, and it was flat out wrong, so I responded to it.

I will now, however, go with the above poster who said you can't ever win a debate with a liberal, and leave you alone.....

Until you post something else on another thread that is flat out untrue.

btw, thanks for not denying that you're a liberal.  It's instructive......

And thanks for being a polite liberal.  It's............ rare.

[Dexter]

Who's obsessing?

You've been accusing me of being a liberal throughout this entire thread, not to mention other threads in which you did you same thing. Even if I was a leftist it wouldn't change or invalidate anything I've said here, so I feel it is completely beside the point and unnecessary to even bring it into the conversation.

But it does make a difference if you come from a leftist worldview.

How does my worldview change the meaning of what I've said here? It's irrelevant and doesn't change my argument either way.

Most of the time I ignore your posts because there's not much there.

But on this thread you made a parallel between the Obama gov't opposing the Tea Party in the same way they opposed Occupy, and it was flat out wrong, so I responded to it.

I thought you said that you could sort of see my point if you twist your brain into a pretzel shape. Surely that means you can't discredit my point completely?

I will now, however, go with the above poster who said you can't ever win a debate with a liberal, and leave you alone.....

The reason it is so difficult to "win" an argument is because points of view are often dictated by different guiding principles in different people. Often times there is no way to definitively prove wrong the philosophy a person lives by, because it is simply a point of view; there really is nothing to prove wrong. A liberal's brain is wired completely different than your brain is, and they see the world through a very different set of eyes.

Until you post something else on another thread that is flat out untrue.

Well I'm sure you won't have to wait long for that. 

btw, thanks for not denying that you're a liberal.  It's instructive......

I didn't confirm or deny anything because I don't feel that I should have to. In all honesty I'm not sure what exactly I would call myself; I guess you could say I am an independent.

And thanks for being a polite liberal.  It's............ rare.

Maintaining civility is always important.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Why is it so important to spend so much time concentrating on what my label is? If you disagree with me you should concentrate on attacking the logic I'm using to make my point instead of obsessing over what you should be calling me.

The low road is easier to travel.

[musiclady]

You've been accusing me of being a liberal throughout this entire thread, not to mention other threads in which you did you same thing. Even if I was a leftist it wouldn't change or invalidate anything I've said here, so I feel it is completely beside the point and unnecessary to even bring it into the conversation.

How does my worldview change the meaning of what I've said here? It's irrelevant and doesn't change my argument either way.

I thought you said that you could sort of see my point if you twist your brain into a pretzel shape. Surely that means you can't discredit my point completely?


The reason it is so difficult to "win" an argument is because points of view are often dictated by different guiding principles in different people. Often times there is no way to definitively prove wrong the philosophy a person lives by, because it is simply a point of view; there really is nothing to prove wrong. A liberal's brain is wired completely different than your brain is, and they see the world through a very different set of eyes.

Well I'm sure you won't have to wait long for that. 


I didn't confirm or deny anything because I don't feel that I should have to. In all honesty I'm not sure what exactly I would call myself; I guess you could say I am an independent.

Maintaining civility is always important.

Your fundamental error is that you believe your worldview........how you perceive events based on your personal morals and views........ is irrelevant to the words you say here.

I am very proud of being a conservative.  I believe my conservative worldview is important because I have thought about issues for many, many years, and believe that conservative principles help the most people and make the most sense.  I care about the poor, so I am a conservative.  I am a feminist, so I am a conservative.  I believe in personal integrity, and that leads me to conservatism.

The fact that you don't correlate what you say here with your fundamental beliefs is not logical, Dex.  You make comments on what you believe, not in some vacuum, or suspended in outer space.  Perhaps the reason I have continued to bring up your liberalism is that the people on this forum understand that liberalism is a worldview that is inconsistent with Constitutional principles, small government, and integrity in the individuals who represent us in that government.

I would hope that some day you connect your words with your beliefs beyond what you believe are "logical" arguments.  I think the fact that you don't relate your liberalism with your posts is what makes them seem so vacuous to many of us here.


Incidentally, Luis has me on ignore after calling me a "Piece of Excrement" (using the vulgarity usually associated with that phrase).  On that thread where I apologized multiple times for an unfortunate and ill-used, but not meant implication that he took offense to.  He never responded to any of those apologies, nor has he made any attempt to reconcile or speak politely since that time.

I would not use  him as a paragon of virtue for those who take the "high road," were I you.

I believe that I always try to avoid the "low road" and that at no time here have I called you a name.  (Liberal is what you are, as Conservative is what I am.  It's not "name-calling" to recognize that).

I respect you for your intelligence and perseverance.

However, your worldview is getting this country into a mess that we may never recover from, and I'm not going to say that it's just another point of view to be debated.

It's destroying America.

[musiclady]

The low road is easier to travel.

Not trying to renew the argument, but you, Luis Gonzalez, are the first person in 13 years on the internet to call me a piece of excrement (the worst personal insult I've ever received in all my years on political forums), even though I apologized for what I said (but didn't mean), and tried to make things right, and even though I acknowledged that I understood why you were offended.

I ALWAYS try to take the high road, and if I slip, I ALWAYS apologize.

Because it's the right thing to do.  Even though it's not easy.  And even when the people to whom I apologize refuse to accept it.

I meant my apology then.  I still do.

It was, and is the right thing to do.  If you ever want reconciliation, I will welcome it gladly.

[massadvj]

However, your worldview is getting this country into a mess that we may never recover from, and I'm not going to say that it's just another point of view to be debated.

This is an important point, Alice and the reason why I almost never befriend avid liberals. 

If a man were to break into my house and steal my property, I would consider him a thief and avoid him.  I don't see why I should not apply the same standard to someone who votes for a politician to come to my house and steal my property.  In many respects this latter individual is even more despicable than the first.

If a liberal were to abide by my philosophy he will be left alone to lead his life as he chooses.  But in order for me to abide by his, I must have my life micromanaged at every level.  It is simply too great a divide to abide.

[musiclady]

This is an important point, Alice and the reason why I almost never befriend avid liberals. 

If a man were to break into my house and steal my property, I would consider him a thief and avoid him.  I don't see why I should not apply the same standard to someone who votes for a politician to come to my house and steal my property.  In many respects this latter individual is even more despicable than the first.

If a liberal were to abide by my philosophy he will be left alone to lead his life as he chooses.  But in order for me to abide by his, I must have my life micromanaged at every level.  It is simply too great a divide to abide.

Precisely.

The liberal philosophy is oppressive, and the antithesis of liberty.

That's why it matters what a person's worldview is when discussing any issue.   Disagreements among fellow conservatives are based on what is the best way to accomplish mutually agreed upon goals......fidelity to Constitutional principles and small government, among other issues........ and why disagreements between a conservative and a liberal are based on an insurmountable chasm.

It is an exercise in futility to have a 'discussion' with someone whose goals are irreconcilable with the principles we hold dear.

[Dexter]

Your fundamental error is that you believe your worldview........how you perceive events based on your personal morals and views........ is irrelevant to the words you say here.

I am very proud of being a conservative.  I believe my conservative worldview is important because I have thought about issues for many, many years, and believe that conservative principles help the most people and make the most sense.  I care about the poor, so I am a conservative.  I am a feminist, so I am a conservative.  I believe in personal integrity, and that leads me to conservatism.

I believe your fundamental error is your tendency to see everything in black or white. If every last one of my views isn't consistent with the Tea Party I am a lunatic Obama supporting liberal babbling nonsense. I have some opinions that some would see as leaning left, and I've posted about many of them here. I also have a lot of opinions that would get a bunch of liberals to light their torches and grab their pitchforks. People like that would just as readily call me a far right nut job without even considering the rest of my opinions. Like it or not it is people like me that are floating somewhere around the middle that decide the outcomes of elections. If you're interested in the long term survival of conservative principles you are going to have to make some peace with people like me.

The fact that you don't correlate what you say here with your fundamental beliefs is not logical, Dex.  You make comments on what you believe, not in some vacuum, or suspended in outer space.  Perhaps the reason I have continued to bring up your liberalism is that the people on this forum understand that liberalism is a worldview that is inconsistent with Constitutional principles, small government, and integrity in the individuals who represent us in that government.

I believe my fundamental beliefs are in line with the things I say here. You wanted to label me a liberal because it was an easy way to discredit what I was saying without actually addressing it.

I would hope that some day you connect your words with your beliefs beyond what you believe are "logical" arguments.  I think the fact that you don't relate your liberalism with your posts is what makes them seem so vacuous to many of us here.

It all connects and makes sense in my head, just like the things you say connect and make sense in your head even though they may not make sense in mine.

Incidentally, Luis has me on ignore after calling me a "Piece of Excrement" (using the vulgarity usually associated with that phrase).  On that thread where I apologized multiple times for an unfortunate and ill-used, but not meant implication that he took offense to.  He never responded to any of those apologies, nor has he made any attempt to reconcile or speak politely since that time.

I have a feeling that his extreme reaction to what you said was associated with some part of it hitting home and becoming personal to him. You're passionate about what you believe and you get fired up about it. It can be easy to offend people like that. If I remember correctly I was one of your biggest advocates as far as him forgiving what you said. I hope the two of you are able to reconcile your differences.

I believe that I always try to avoid the "low road" and that at no time here have I called you a name.  (Liberal is what you are, as Conservative is what I am.  It's not "name-calling" to recognize that).

I'm not so sure about that, but I'm not really interested in drudging through post history to find out for sure. Either way I never took it personally. I just try to do my best to keep everything civil.

I respect you for your intelligence and perseverance.

Well thank you, and likewise.

However, your worldview is getting this country into a mess that we may never recover from, and I'm not going to say that it's just another point of view to be debated.

It's destroying America.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Obviously I see it differently or I would have a different point of view. The destruction of America is not on my to do list.

[Dexter]

Precisely.

The liberal philosophy is oppressive, and the antithesis of liberty.

That's why it matters what a person's worldview is when discussing any issue.   Disagreements among fellow conservatives are based on what is the best way to accomplish mutually agreed upon goals......fidelity to Constitutional principles and small government, among other issues........ and why disagreements between a conservative and a liberal are based on an insurmountable chasm.

It is an exercise in futility to have a 'discussion' with someone whose goals are irreconcilable with the principles we hold dear.

I believe in small government. The only person on this forum more distrustful of big government is MAYBE Dan, but it would be hard to trust the government less than I do. I agree with a lot of the conservative positions on immigration. It's absolutely insane to make public assistance readily available and at the same time open the flood gates for anybody that wants to call themselves an American. I also don't think firearms should be regulated in any way. That is a terrible and ineffective idea for the same reasons that prohibition and the drug war were/are terrible and ineffective. I would vote for Rand/Ron Paul if they were third party. I very much agree with a lot of what they say about our banking system, and I believe it is very important to the future of this country. Are those opinions that you would expect to hear from a liberal?

[Luis Gonzalez]

I believe in small government. The only person on this forum more distrustful of big government is MAYBE Dan, but it would be hard to trust the government less than I do. I agree with a lot of the conservative positions on immigration. It's absolutely insane to make public assistance readily available and at the same time open the flood gates for anybody that wants to call themselves an American. I also don't think firearms should be regulated in any way. That is a terrible and ineffective idea for the same reasons that prohibition and the drug war were/are terrible and ineffective. I would vote for Rand/Ron Paul if they were third party. I very much agree with a lot of what they say about our banking system, and I believe it is very important to the future of this country. Are those opinions that you would expect to hear from a liberal?

There's no one in government that is in favor of smaller government... well. maybe Ron Paul.

Being in government or working at becoming part of the government by arguing in favor of and supporting the idea of smaller government makes as much sense as Bill Gates saying that he supports Microsoft having a diminishing share of the world's operating system market.

He may actually say that, but you know damned well he doesn't mean it.

[musiclady]

I believe your fundamental error is your tendency to see everything in black or white. If every last one of my views isn't consistent with the Tea Party I am a lunatic Obama supporting liberal babbling nonsense. I have some opinions that some would see as leaning left, and I've posted about many of them here. I also have a lot of opinions that would get a bunch of liberals to light their torches and grab their pitchforks. People like that would just as readily call me a far right nut job without even considering the rest of my opinions. Like it or not it is people like me that are floating somewhere around the middle that decide the outcomes of elections. If you're interested in the long term survival of conservative principles you are going to have to make some peace with people like me.

I believe my fundamental beliefs are in line with the things I say here. You wanted to label me a liberal because it was an easy way to discredit what I was saying without actually addressing it.
It all connects and makes sense in my head, just like the things you say connect and make sense in your head even though they may not make sense in mine.

I have a feeling that his extreme reaction to what you said was associated with some part of it hitting home and becoming personal to him. You're passionate about what you believe and you get fired up about it. It can be easy to offend people like that. If I remember correctly I was one of your biggest advocates as far as him forgiving what you said. I hope the two of you are able to reconcile your differences.


I'm not so sure about that, but I'm not really interested in drudging through post history to find out for sure. Either way I never took it personally. I just try to do my best to keep everything civil.

Well thank you, and likewise.

I'm sorry you feel that way. Obviously I see it differently or I would have a different point of view. The destruction of America is not on my to do list.

Too much here for me to respond to tonight, so I'll just touch on a few things.

1.  I do not see "everything in black and white."  There are many areas of gray throughout life.  But it is not ALL gray.  It is not ALL a matter of opinion, with each side being equal.  That is where you are in fundamental error.  There is good, and there is evil.  To pretend that it's just another POV is not adequate.  The funny thing is that you clearly have strong opinions about many things, yet you resist differing strong opinions in others.  Don't live your life without moral absolutes.  It's not the way life works.

2.  I understand that there are those who are not strongly conservative nor strongly liberal.  You might notice, if you care to, that I only react to the things you say that are liberal, and are thus, in error. (Lest I become to repetitive, your comment about OWS and the Tea Party and this government.  It was just wrong.  Period).

3.  Yes, I'm passionate about many things, but there's not one person on this forum for which that is not the case.......including you.  I'm not offended by Dan's passion about one world government.  I'm not offended by Luis' passion about gay marriage.  I'm not offended by your passion about being dispassionate.  I'm not offended by those who see Islam as the root of all evil.  I have four children, all of whom are passionate about something, and all of whom disagree with me on many issues.  It doesn't affect my relationship with them whatsoever.  If I've jumped to some erroneous conclusions about you, you've certainly jumped to as many or more about me.

4.  Internet forum communication is faulty at best.  For instance, Dan hates me because of a gross misunderstanding he has of me based on things he thought I thought about someone else on another forum.  Years later, he's still got me on ignore, and yet we agree on almost everything.  People misunderstand things all the time, and if people like Dan and Luis want to hold grudges for years, that's their right, and also the burden they have to live with.  You can't make peace with people who want to live in conflict.  I don't want to live in conflict with either of these two men, but they both want to live in conflict with me.  There's no more I can do about that than I have already done.  I like to argue, but I like making peace even better, and I can't do a blasted thing if people want to be mad at me forever for no reason.  That ball, as they say, is in their court.

5.  You truly seem like a decent fellow.  But you really need to understand that in the world of black and white, liberalism is black.  (Don't think by that statement that I think all Republicans are conservative and not liberal.  They're not).  Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, et al, are in the camp of evil.  Recognizing that doesn't mean I see "everything" as black and white.  But murdering babies so their mothers can go on vacation is evil, and the current Dem party has chosen to support that evil.  And that's just one of many, many evils they espouse.

I don't know if any of this even makes sense to you in your world of shades of gray, but I encourage you to think about it, and think about where espousing life in that nebulous world will take you. 

[truth_seeker]

I believe your fundamental error is your tendency to see everything in black or white. If every last one of my views isn't consistent with the Tea Party I am a lunatic Obama supporting liberal babbling nonsense. I have some opinions that some would see as leaning left, and I've posted about many of them here. I also have a lot of opinions that would get a bunch of liberals to light their torches and grab their pitchforks. People like that would just as readily call me a far right nut job without even considering the rest of my opinions. Like it or not it is people like me that are floating somewhere around the middle that decide the outcomes of elections. If you're interested in the long term survival of conservative principles you are going to have to make some peace with people like me.

One of my main criticisms of contemporary "conservatism" is the tendency to name call and label others, instead of waging successful salesmanship of their views.

The simple math of winning elections seems to escape their interest. The very idea they do need to ally themselves with people they don't see eye-to-eye on everything, totally eludes them.

On granting funding to Syrian rebels, Cruz voted with Bernie Sanders, and he complimented him too.

I think somebody must have slipped the Senator from Texas, a copy of Carnegie's book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking

1.  The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
2.  Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
3.  If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
4.  Begin in a friendly way.
5.  Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
6.  Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
7.  Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
8. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
9. Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
10.Appeal to the nobler motives.
11.Dramatize your ideas.
12.Throw down a challenge.
 

[MACVSOG68]

One of my main criticisms of contemporary "conservatism" is the tendency to name call and label others, instead of waging successful salesmanship of their views.

The simple math of winning elections seems to escape their interest. The very idea they do need to ally themselves with people they don't see eye-to-eye on everything, totally eludes them.

On granting funding to Syrian rebels, Cruz voted with Bernie Sanders, and he complimented him too.

I think somebody must have slipped the Senator from Texas, a copy of Carnegie's book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking

1.  The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
2.  Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
3.  If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
4.  Begin in a friendly way.
5.  Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
6.  Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
7.  Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
8. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
9. Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
10.Appeal to the nobler motives.
11.Dramatize your ideas.
12.Throw down a challenge.

Can't argue with any of that...but which of those 12 ways can be used to win anyone here?  For the most part, the best shot you get is to be put on ignore...or worse...

[truth_seeker]

Can't argue with any of that...but which of those 12 ways can be used to win anyone here?  For the most part, the best shot you get is to be put on ignore...or worse...

If we encounter somebody that says they vote for democrats, we can do one of two or three things:

1. Tell them they are stupid,

2. Just turn and walk away,

3. Ask them to explain why.

Oh, and often issues cut across party and ideology boundaries. Real life politics is different from internet entertainment shouting forums.

[musiclady]

One of my main criticisms of contemporary "conservatism" is the tendency to name call and label others, instead of waging successful salesmanship of their views.

The simple math of winning elections seems to escape their interest. The very idea they do need to ally themselves with people they don't see eye-to-eye on everything, totally eludes them.

On granting funding to Syrian rebels, Cruz voted with Bernie Sanders, and he complimented him too.

I think somebody must have slipped the Senator from Texas, a copy of Carnegie's book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking

1.  The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
2.  Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
3.  If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
4.  Begin in a friendly way.
5.  Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
6.  Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
7.  Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
8. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
9. Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
10.Appeal to the nobler motives.
11.Dramatize your ideas.
12.Throw down a challenge.

Just for the record, I'm not a "contemporary conservative."  I've been this kind of conservative for decades because I believe that conservatism is being true to the Constitution, being true to the values the country was founded on, and the answer to our economic and moral woes.

That doesn't mean for a second that I don't believe it's important to work together with others to accomplish a goal.  That's a very different matter, and in DC, it is often necessary to work for the good by compromising what you believe is "best."

And I spent a lot of time arguing with unreasonable people on TOS who refused to vote because the candidate wasn't good enough for them.  In fact, I've spent a lot of my time working to bring people together to accomplish the greater goal.  A LOT.

Nonetheless, I'm not afraid to tell someone that I believe their idea is wrong, if it is.  And I'm also very willing to admit I've been wrong when I have been.  (When you're outspoken, it happens quite a bit, actually).

Frankly, I don't think I'm going to convince Dex, or you, of anything.  You're both very certain of yourselves and aren't likely to be convinced by someone you think is completely wrong.

So, we voice our views, and hope that someone gets a glimmer of an idea they hadn't considered before, and when people put us on "ignore" because they don't like what we say, we examine ourselves to see if there's any merit in their criticisms, and then move on.  As I said above, if someone is determined to live in conflict with me, there's not much I can do about it.  It's their decision.  In as much as it is up to me, I will live in peace.

So.......I've decided to stick around here, because of all the places I've been over the years, there are more reasonable people here than any other forum I've been on.  I agree with everyone here about something, and disagree with everyone here about something as well.

That's a healthy thing, IMO.

[Dexter]

3. Ask them to explain why.

The Socratic method is one of my favorites. If you simply ask enough of the right questions people start to realize that the logic they live by doesn't actually make sense.

[musiclady]

The Socratic method is one of my favorites. If you simply ask enough of the right questions people start to realize that the logic they live by doesn't actually make sense.

Interesting.

Our daughter has a PhD in Medieval Philosophy and is a professor of same, and we have many discussions with her about this exact method of instruction.

(Conservatives aren't all dolts, you know.  ^-^   I'm a professor as well).

[Dexter]

Just for the record, I'm not a "contemporary conservative."  I've been this kind of conservative for decades because I believe that conservatism is being true to the Constitution, being true to the values the country was founded on, and the answer to our economic and moral woes.

That doesn't mean for a second that I don't believe it's important to work together with others to accomplish a goal.  That's a very different matter, and in DC, it is often necessary to work for the good by compromising what you believe is "best."

And I spent a lot of time arguing with unreasonable people on TOS who refused to vote because the candidate wasn't good enough for them.  In fact, I've spent a lot of my time working to bring people together to accomplish the greater goal.  A LOT.

Nonetheless, I'm not afraid to tell someone that I believe their idea is wrong, if it is.  And I'm also very willing to admit I've been wrong when I have been.  (When you're outspoken, it happens quite a bit, actually).

Frankly, I don't think I'm going to convince Dex, or you, of anything.  You're both very certain of yourselves and aren't likely to be convinced by someone you think is completely wrong.

So, we voice our views, and hope that someone gets a glimmer of an idea they hadn't considered before, and when people put us on "ignore" because they don't like what we say, we examine ourselves to see if there's any merit in their criticisms, and then move on.  As I said above, if someone is determined to live in conflict with me, there's not much I can do about it.  It's their decision.  In as much as it is up to me, I will live in peace.

So.......I've decided to stick around here, because of all the places I've been over the years, there are more reasonable people here than any other forum I've been on.  I agree with everyone here about something, and disagree with everyone here about something as well.

That's a healthy thing, IMO.

I feel similarly that I will never convince you that you are wrong. I've always felt that heated debates between two people were more for the onlookers. The silent ones that never post but come to conclusions based on how outspoken people like you and I construct and defend our arguments.

[musiclady]

I feel similarly that I will never convince you that you are wrong. I've always felt that heated debates between two people were more for the onlookers. The silent ones that never post but come to conclusions based on how outspoken people like you and I construct and defend our arguments.

Exactly.  Which is why I think very carefully before I type.

(And if I don't, I gladly use the edit feature!)

[Luis Gonzalez]

One of my main criticisms of contemporary "conservatism" is the tendency to name call and label others, instead of waging successful salesmanship of their views.

The simple math of winning elections seems to escape their interest. The very idea they do need to ally themselves with people they don't see eye-to-eye on everything, totally eludes them.

On granting funding to Syrian rebels, Cruz voted with Bernie Sanders, and he complimented him too.

I think somebody must have slipped the Senator from Texas, a copy of Carnegie's book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking

1.  The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
2.  Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
3.  If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
4.  Begin in a friendly way.
5.  Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
6.  Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
7.  Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
8. Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
9. Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
10.Appeal to the nobler motives.
11.Dramatize your ideas.
12.Throw down a challenge.

Good post.