Islamic State threat 'beyond anything we've seen': Pentagon

[Dexter]

In other words, the reason ISIS is so well armed now has very little to do with the MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX (looks so much more scary in all caps, don't it) and everything to do with liberal democrat party politics.

To be perfectly blunt, 'twas Barack Obama and the liberal democrats who armed ISIS.

I'd suggest a return to high school, but unfortunately these days you wouldn't learn a whit more of real history or real thought.

I think Democrat and Republican at the fed level are all but synonymous at this point. I think what happened would have happened no matter who was in office, because I think Obama is another empty suit politician trying to perpetuate the illusion that we're actually in control of all of this. As for the rest of your post, I really have nothing to say other than that I disagree with you. We see the world differently, and if you think that makes me naive/shortsighted/stupid, well, so be it. Just for the record, your insulting tone and halfhearted insults do not make your arguments any more compelling. Maybe you should return to elementary school where they taught us all how to play nice and coexist with people that are different.

[musiclady]

I thought my first post made that clear.

What??  THIS???  Obama????

I was wondering when we'd get a new boogeyman to keep the cash flowing into the military-industrial complex.

Now THAT's funny!

[Dexter]

/snicker


strawman argument.  are you saying that the 9/11 hijackers stormed the coastlines in Boston and New York City?

I'm saying once again that destroying ISIS or not will not make us any less likely to get hit by a terrorist attack. If some extremists get together and have enough brains and cash to put together a well planned attack, it will probably work. There isn't a lot we can do about that at this point in time. Also, if ISIS wants to take over the world they are going to have to do a lot more than take down a couple of towers.

[Dexter]

What??  THIS???  Obama????

Now THAT's funny!

Obama says a lot of things, but that's about it.

[aligncare]

Okay, Dex you make some good points. And on some level I even agree with you re war in the middle East. But on a base level, retaliation against aggression, and, yes, waging war is endemic to humankind. There will always be the next threat from without, the next Hitler to counter.

This is an important moment in history for Islam. Will it self examine and embrace modernity? Or will it continue to let it's fundamentalist orthodoxy threaten other religions and peoples with "convert or die?"

At that level, we gotta let the dogs loose! Pound them into submission. You don't need boots on the ground for that. Dust off the bombers and crank up the fighters. Get 'er done!

I'm feeling a bit testy this Friday evening.

[Dexter]

Okay, Dex you make some good points. And on some level I even agree with you re war in the middle East. But on a base level, retaliation against aggression, and, yes, waging war is endemic to humankind. There will always be the next threat from without, the next Hitler to counter.

This is an important moment in history for Islam. Will it self examine and embrace modernity? Or will it continue to let it's fundamentalist orthodoxy threaten other religions and peoples with "convert or die?"

At that level, we gotta let the dogs loose! Pound them into submission. You don't need boots on the ground for that. Dust off the bombers and crank up the fighters. Get 'er done!

I'm feeling a bit testy this Friday evening.

We've tried to pound them into submission and it hasn't worked; now things are worse than ever, and it's mostly our fault. I don't think ISIS is anywhere near the level of threat Hitler and the Nazis were. Also, dropping more bombs inevitability kills more innocent bystanders which inevitably fuels more hatred for the United States. I see it as a problem when the majority of the dead were decent people that wanted nothing to do with war. I understand your reasons for wanting to stop ISIS, but I don't believe we can really do it. Maybe we'll take out the military equipment they stole, but in the end the extremist element still exists and will continue to exist despite all of our best efforts. The Middle East and the millions of decent and peace loving Muslims that live there are going to have to win this for themselves and decide to make the changes necessary to improve their culture and their future. We cannot win this battle for them or force them to make cultural changes they are not ready to make.

[aligncare]

The Middle East and the millions of decent, peace loving Muslims that live there are going to have to win this for themselves and decide to make the changes necessary to improve their culture and their future.

Total agreement.

I'm okay with leaving Middle East to handle it's own affairs. Protect America and American interests abroad and beyond that let's get back home and work on some problems. Like stopping the spread of leftist ideology in public schools and colleges.

[NavyCanDo]

ISIS does not have the means to wage actual war against the United States. They wouldn't even stand a chance against Israel. If those are the goals of ISIS, their leadership is going to have a very rude awakening. If we decide to take them out we will do so easily. They could never pose a real threat to U.S citizens on U.S soil. You may be thinking "terrorist attacks" but I would like to once again reiterate that waging war in the Middle East is not going to decrease the likelihood of us getting hit by another sneak attack.

They are more heavily funded and far more equipped than al quida was before 9/11. Please don't insult our intelligence saying they have no means to wage war with the U.S.  9/11 was a act of waging war, but you would disagree I suppose.

[Dexter]

9/11 was a act of waging war, but you would disagree I suppose.

I'm tired of repeating myself; refer to my others posts for my rebuttal to this.

[Oceander]

I'm saying once again that destroying ISIS or not will not make us any less likely to get hit by a terrorist attack. If some extremists get together and have enough brains and cash to put together a well planned attack, it will probably work. There isn't a lot we can do about that at this point in time. Also, if ISIS wants to take over the world they are going to have to do a lot more than take down a couple of towers.

And on that you are simply wrong; hopefully you won't be dead wrong.

Of course, I suppose I can see the certain logic in your argument.  After all, what the Hell should a couple of Choos in Europe have mattered to us, eh?  Why'd we have to go and get involved in Europe in WWII?  We could have sat that side out nicely and simply licked our wounds from Pearl Harbor and made sure the Japanese forces couldn't storm the beaches in California.  And who cares if ISIS is beheading a few here and there, right?  Heck, they're just offing Christians, after all, and isn't that what Christians want anyways, to be martyred?  After all, attacking Japan and smashing their fighting ability didn't solve anything, did it?  It just made that part of the world madder at us, didn't it?

Maybe it's all just another deep conspiracy between the Koch Brothers and the .... (wait for it) ....

MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!

Monty Python had the Spanish Inquisition.  Dexxie boy has the MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.  Too bad he doesn't have any of the humor or wit that Monty Python had.

[DCPatriot]

And on that you are simply wrong; hopefully you won't be dead wrong.

Of course, I suppose I can see the certain logic in your argument.  After all, what the Hell should a couple of Choos in Europe have mattered to us, eh?  Why'd we have to go and get involved in Europe in WWII?  We could have sat that side out nicely and simply licked our wounds from Pearl Harbor and made sure the Japanese forces couldn't storm the beaches in California.  And who cares if ISIS is beheading a few here and there, right?  Heck, they're just offing Christians, after all, and isn't that what Christians want anyways, to be martyred?  After all, attacking Japan and smashing their fighting ability didn't solve anything, did it?  It just made that part of the world madder at us, didn't it?

What the heck was "Lend Lease", if not a way to avoid spilling American blood on European soil?

Maybe it's all just another deep conspiracy between the Koch Brothers and the .... (wait for it) ....

MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX!

Monty Python had the Spanish Inquisition.  Dexxie boy has the MILITARY/INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.  Too bad he doesn't have any of the humor or wit that Monty Python had.

Why don't you stop your insulting bullshit this beautiful Friday evening.   It detracts from your otherwise intelligent argument(s)

 

[Oceander]

What the heck was "Lend Lease", if not a way to avoid spilling American blood on European soil?


Why don't you stop your insulting bullshit this beautiful Friday evening.   It detracts from your otherwise intelligent argument(s)

 

Lend/Lease?  Are you saying the only two valid responses are either (a) do-nothing isolationism, or (b) full boots-on-the-ground?  Are you seriously saying that we should either STFU about Russia getting into Ukraine or get a full battalion of US soldiers on the ground?  That supplying Ukraine with so-called lethal aid isn't a valid way of supporting an ally?


Just desserts don't always tolerate the foolish.

[Fishrrman]

katzenjammer wrote above:
[[ (You know my take on this, I am a part of a small minority that believes that Western Civilization must confront the scourge of islam and drive it out of Western Civilization, root and branch.  (Think of Fishhrman's "Apple Tree" analogy!)  But at the present I see no evidence that Western Civilization (except in small pockets, e.g., some European countries that are a decade or so further down the invasion road than the US) is anywhere close to becoming willing to call a Spade, a Spade, and deal with it appropriately. ]]

Thanks for remembering!

You're absolutely correct in your assessment of Western Civilization's willingness to deal with islam.

The West has yet to face reality.
It will only do so just before it becomes "too late" to save itself -- or just after.

Yet when in other posts I have postulated about what it would actually take to forcefully and completely counter the threat of islam (both here and in Europe and elsewhere), folks back away, murmuring, "oh, no, we can't do that here, we can't do such things in a free society".

And that's going to seal our fate. islam has the advantage in this struggle, because they're not afraid, they're not restrained, they will do whatever it takes to accomplish their goal. We won't.

I wish I could offer you more optimism, but I can't. In only thirteen years from that awful day in September, we've gone to having a muslim in the White House being directed by muslim advisors who pull his strings.

Tell me, in all honesty, who's winning?

(I'll post this and go back to playing "Jesus on the Mainline" on the banjo in my lap)

[Fishrrman]

Dex wrote above:
[[ Unless your goal is the complete extermination of giant groups of people in the Middle East there is really nothing we can do about nut jobs that sneak attack us. ]]

It's not "giant groups of people" that we must "exterminate" in the Middle East (and elsewhere in the world).

It's the evil ideology that holds them enthralled that must be put to its death.

We must do to that ideology as we did to Nazism at the end of World War II.

Until The West is willing to do that, to do what it takes to cleanse such populations of the poison within that holds them in its grip, we are walking a pathway towards defeat.

What would you do to demonstrate to them that the idol they worship is a false one?

[Fishrrman]

Dex wrote above:
[[ We've tried to pound them into submission and it hasn't worked ]]

No we haven't.
Not like we "pounded" the Japanese into submission 79 year ago this month.
We were less "destructive" in Iraq and Afghanistan than we were in Vietnam...

You also wrote:
[[ I don't think ISIS is anywhere near the level of threat Hitler and the Nazis were. ]]

Ask the Christians over there on crosses or whose heads are scattered around on the ground about that.

[[ Also, dropping more bombs inevitability kills more innocent bystanders which inevitably fuels more hatred for the United States. ]]

See above.

But... again.... you have totally misread the reality of what's going on in the world, and in the Mideast (as have some other members of this forum).

It doesn't matter if we kill every last soldier of ISIS.
This cannot and will not end the epic and existential struggle that is going on today.

Killing the leaders of ISIS will as much end that struggle as did killing Osama bin Laden. Who's talking much about al-qaeda today?

The "leader of the struggle" is no one who can be killed, because he's already dead, and has been for 1,400 years.

Yet he continues to hold more than a billion people in his thrall, who march to the step of his "battle instructions" -- from a book that is his version of Mein Kampf.

That's what The West must destroy, that's what we must break, that's what we must end.

Until we find the intestinal fortitude to face up to that reality, the struggle will continue....

[DCPatriot]

Lend/Lease?  Are you saying the only two valid responses are either (a) do-nothing isolationism, or (b) full boots-on-the-ground?  Are you seriously saying that we should either STFU about Russia getting into Ukraine or get a full battalion of US soldiers on the ground?  That supplying Ukraine with so-called lethal aid isn't a valid way of supporting an ally?


Just desserts don't always tolerate the foolish.

You asked the question about why should we have gotten involved in Europe during WWII.  I was responding to that question.  Personally, I don't give a fig what Russia does in the Ukraine.  And a sidenote:  Vladimir Putin is not very fond of Muslims.  That's a good thing, IMO.

Lend Lease was a way of assisting our European allies without costing American lives.  Tantamount to paying somebody to 'soften' up the bully for us.

And of course, keep the anti-war voter at home content...and FDR in the White House.

And will confess here that I have no idea what you mean about your statement regarding just desserts not tolerating the foolish. 

Missed that one my friend.   

[Dexter]

Just desserts don't always tolerate the foolish.

I respect your intelligence enough to not insult it over a disagreement. I'd like to think that I've at least demonstrated that I am not a complete fool, but perhaps not. Either way it should be beneath you to insult people that disagree with you.

[DCPatriot]

I respect your intelligence enough to not insult it over a disagreement. I'd like to think that I've at least demonstrated that I am not a complete fool, but perhaps not. Either way it should be beneath you to insult people that disagree with you.

 Thinking you handled yourself splendidly, Dex!    

[katzenjammer]

Thinking you handled yourself splendidly, Dex!   

DC (David), I rarely make a post like this, but you are a good guy through and through!!  I may not agree 100% with your points and approach at times, but I can tell without a doubt that your heart (and soul) is in the right place, always!!   

(Fishh, I want to respond to your post, but we are watching a really good movie at the moment!)

[NavyCanDo]

Well, reading over the thread it seems there are a couple of more besides Dex who thinks America’s best position is to not get involved.  I respectfully disagree with the premise of leaving ISIS alone and hoping things will sort themselves out.
This will result in a radical theocracy (Caliphate) taking over the entire Mideast, and which will continue to spread to the west.
Moderate Moslems will not wage war on other Muslims. The people will not, cannot "rise up", against the theocracy of a Caliphate. It can only be stopped from the outside. These radicals WILL get nukes, and Will use them on us.
A cancer, left alone, always worsens. The sooner we obliterate this menace, the easier and less costly it will be.

[DCPatriot]

DC (David), I rarely make a post like this, but you are a good guy through and through!!  I may not agree 100% with your points and approach at times, but I can tell without a doubt that your heart (and soul) is in the right place, always!!   

...

Thank you very much, Katz. I am humbled and proud that you would take the time to say that.

IMO, being able to read (and enjoy) opposing POVs among friends is what separates us from the rest of the typical political forums out there. We have, without a doubt, the finest core of people on the net.  We're truly 'family' and hate to see disagreements evolve into feuds and/or grudge matches.

[DCPatriot]

Well, reading over the thread it seems there are a couple of more besides Dex who thinks America’s best position is to not get involved.  I respectfully disagree with the premise of leaving ISIS alone and hoping things will sort themselves out.
This will result in a radical theocracy (Caliphate) taking over the entire Mideast, and which will continue to spread to the west.
Moderate Moslems will not wage war on other Muslims. The people will not, cannot "rise up", against the theocracy of a Caliphate. It can only be stopped from the outside. These radicals WILL get nukes, and Will use them on us.
A cancer, left alone, always worsens. The sooner we obliterate this menace, the easier and less costly it will be.

Navy...just want to make clear that my feelings regarding "getting involved", applied to Russia.  Not ISIL/ISIS.