Author Topic: Yet Again Republicans Fight Grassroot Conservatives Harder Than They Fight The Democrats  (Read 2892 times)

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Offline MACVSOG68

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Apparently it was impossible to both end slavery and not increase the power of a central government.

Or was one just a convenient excuse to bring in the other?

Fair point.  The real pre-war issue was the expansion of slavery into territories rather than slavery in established states.  As anti-slavery as the new Republican Party was, it wasn't prepared to try to force abolition in the South, and didn't have the votes in Congress in any case.  But with expansion of the Nation, the South understood that sooner or later Congress would have enough free states to force the issue.  Thus the Civil War.

And yes, in the end it did increase the power of the federal government.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Fair point.  The real pre-war issue was the expansion of slavery into territories rather than slavery in established states.  As anti-slavery as the new Republican Party was, it wasn't prepared to try to force abolition in the South, and didn't have the votes in Congress in any case.  But with expansion of the Nation, the South understood that sooner or later Congress would have enough free states to force the issue.  Thus the Civil War.

And yes, in the end it did increase the power of the federal government.
Ending slavery was hardly a ruse, for expanding government power. Ending slavery had religious origins going back centuries.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline MACVSOG68

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Ending slavery was hardly a ruse, for expanding government power. Ending slavery had religious origins going back centuries.

Not a ruse.  Abolition was certainly the ultimate goal of the Whigs-Republicans.  But the ultimate result was a stronger federal (central) government.  Could it have been achieved without a stronger central government?  Doubt it.  And the Republicans were very divided in those goals and timetables.  Almost as divided as they are today.  The Radical Republicans wanted an immediate end to slavery and harsh punishment for the South.  But Lincoln was in many respects more pragmatic. 

But if I understood Dan's rhetorical question, the relationship between the two wasn't minor. 

On your point of religious objections to slavery, religion was also used to justify it at least in the South.
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Offline truth_seeker

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Not a ruse.  Abolition was certainly the ultimate goal of the Whigs-Republicans.  But the ultimate result was a stronger federal (central) government.  Could it have been achieved without a stronger central government?  Doubt it.  And the Republicans were very divided in those goals and timetables.  Almost as divided as they are today.  The Radical Republicans wanted an immediate end to slavery and harsh punishment for the South.  But Lincoln was in many respects more pragmatic. 

But if I understood Dan's rhetorical question, the relationship between the two wasn't minor. 

On your point of religious objections to slavery, religion was also used to justify it at least in the South.
All this strikes me as yet another rehash of the olde worn argument that:

--"the Civil War was not over slavery," and now we hear it contended that

--"the Republican Party was not founded centering on abolition of slavery."

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline MACVSOG68

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All this strikes me as yet another rehash of the olde worn argument that:

--"the Civil War was not over slavery," and now we hear it contended that

--"the Republican Party was not founded centering on abolition of slavery."

The Civil War, known in these parts as "The War of Northern Aggression", was fought by the South to keep the new states open to slavery.  From the North's part, it was to hold together the Nation.  But Lincoln wasn't holding the issue of slavery as a requirement for ending the war...at least not at the start.  Even after the Emancipation Proclamation he issued in Sept 62, he didn't push for an end to slavery as far as the rest of the Nation went until the end of the war.

But as I've said, the Republican Party was very much abolitionist, some extremely so; some pragmatically so.  And the Party was even more splintered during Reconstruction with the Radical Republicans demanding far more of the South than others in the Party. 
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Online Bigun

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The Civil War, known in these parts as "The War of Northern Aggression", was fought by the South to keep the new states open to slavery.  From the North's part, it was to hold together the Nation.  But Lincoln wasn't holding the issue of slavery as a requirement for ending the war...at least not at the start.  Even after the Emancipation Proclamation he issued in Sept 62, he didn't push for an end to slavery as far as the rest of the Nation went until the end of the war.

But as I've said, the Republican Party was very much abolitionist, some extremely so; some pragmatically so.  And the Party was even more splintered during Reconstruction with the Radical Republicans demanding far more of the South than others in the Party.

Just a tad bit more complicated than that I'm afraid. You seem to forget all about the Missouri Compromise, the Compromise of 1850, and The Kansas-Nebraska Act  Not all new states would have been admitted as slave states and you know it!  And then we have the issue of an extremely high tariff which sough to protect the northern industrialist from foreign competition and force the southern planters to buy ONLY from them as well as the issue of "internal improvements" which worked well for the north and did nothing for the south.  No. It was not nearly as simple as you seem to want to make it As is the case in ALL wars, the victor gets to write the history books and they are mostly not worth the paper they are printed on if one wants to know what REALLY happened!

The fact is that Mr. Lincoln walked all over the U.S. Constitution in order to pursue his war and thus opened wide the doors through which every progressive since have walked. We STILL TODAY suffer from what he and his party did during that time.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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The Republicans not only ended slavery and saved the Union, but forced enactment of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments.

Exactly right! Forced! I fail to find any mechanism in the U.S. Constitution which allows the Federal government to FORCE a state legislature to do anything.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Just a tad bit more complicated than that I'm afraid. You seem to forget all about the Missouri Compromise, the Compromise of 1850, and The Kansas-Nebraska Act  Not all new states would have been admitted as slave states and you know it!  And then we have the issue of an extremely high tariff which sough to protect the northern industrialist from foreign competition and force the southern planters to buy ONLY from them as well as the issue of "internal improvements" which worked well for the north and did nothing for the south.  No. It was not nearly as simple as you seem to want to make it As is the case in ALL wars, the victor gets to write the history books and they are mostly not worth the paper they are printed on if one wants to know what REALLY happened!

Well Bigun, you don't seem to have any problem writing your version of history.  The Kansas Nebraska Act was actually one of the major events that led to the war.  Bleeding Kansas was the attempt of both sides to "influence" Kansans to vote for either freedom or slavery.

Many of my fellow South Carolinians still believe Lincoln started the war, in spite of the fact that SC seceded well before Lincoln took office.  These folks, well meaning, don't like to talk about the Confederate constitution which prohibited a state from ever determining its own slave-holding future.  Slavery was a constitutional requirement, not a state's option.  As for the alleged economic problems of the South, the wealth of the Deep South and Border South states was far greater than any other region of the US, including the manufacturing centers.  The Confederate States wealth made them the 4th largest "country" in the world.  But their wealth was almost entirely derived from slavery, and the threat of new states coming in free and ultimately outlawing slavery in the US was too terrible a proposition for them to contemplate.  Yes, money was the ultimate issue, but money from the sweat and blood of slaves.

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The fact is that Mr. Lincoln walked all over the U.S. Constitution in order to pursue his war and thus opened wide the doors through which every progressive since have walked. We STILL TODAY suffer from what he and his party did during that time.

President Lincoln didn't start the war.  The unconstitutional confederacy did.  Thank God we kept the Union together and ended slavery at the same time. 

But as you say, we obviously have differing opinions on this part of our history. 
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Exactly right! Forced! I fail to find any mechanism in the U.S. Constitution which allows the Federal government to FORCE a state legislature to do anything.

It was a requirement of reconstruction, and the state legislatures did so willingly if not happily.
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Online Bigun

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President Lincoln didn't start the war.  The unconstitutional confederacy did.  Thank God we kept the Union together and ended slavery at the same time. 

But as you say, we obviously have differing opinions on this part of our history.

By any means necessary! The ends Justify the means! I've heard it all before it seems!

You are very right about us having different opinions on this part of our history. I strongly suspect that will not change! Your only problem is that I have the facts and the law on my side and you are left with only pounding on the table!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 10:04:49 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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By any means necessary! The ends Justify the means! I've heard it all before it seems!

You are very right about us having different opinions on this part of our history is I strongly suspect that will not change! Your only problem is that I have the facts and the law on my side and you are left with only pounding on the table!

The worst thing Lincoln had been legitimately accused of was the period he set aside the Writ of Habeas Corpus.  Now a lot of people bellyache about that and whether or not it was essential, but as you are well aware, war is war.  At the same time, the South was fighting to preserve one of history's most heinous institutions.  But I think about what has gone on in the 20th Century and even up to today, and I wonder how well a balkanized North America would have been able to come to the free world's aid on more than one occasion.

As for facts, I'm still waiting.  No table pounding here, just you resorting to some silliness.  And I've given you quite a few facts, and no real rebuttals. 
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Online Bigun

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The worst thing Lincoln had been legitimately accused of was the period he set aside the Writ of Habeas Corpus.  Now a lot of people bellyache about that and whether or not it was essential, but as you are well aware, war is war.  At the same time, the South was fighting to preserve one of history's most heinous institutions.  But I think about what has gone on in the 20th Century and even up to today, and I wonder how well a balkanized North America would have been able to come to the free world's aid on more than one occasion.

As for facts, I'm still waiting.  No table pounding here, just you resorting to some silliness.  And I've given you quite a few facts, and no real rebuttals.

Here are a few facts for you!

There is not one word in the U.S. Constitution which would prevent a state from leaving the union should it decide that it is in it's best interests to do so.

Maryland's legislature was prevented from leaving the union by force of arms! An act nowhere authorized in that same Constitution.

The Constitution forbids the formation of any new state with the boundaries of an already existing state yet we have today the state of West Virginia.

Lincoln unconstitutionally ordered all manner of war spending without any authorization of congress.

For starters.

But the end justifies the means doesn't it and might makes right!

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Here are a few facts for you!

There is not one word in the U.S. Constitution which would prevent a state from leaving the union should it decide that it is in it's best interests to do so.

Maryland's legislature was prevented from leaving the union by force of arms! An act nowhere authorized in that same Constitution.

The Constitution forbids the formation of any new state with the boundaries of an already existing state yet we have today the state of West Virginia.

Lincoln unconstitutionally ordered all manner of war spending without any authorization of congress.

For starters.

But the end justifies the means doesn't it and might makes right!

Outside of Texas v White in which the USSC determined that secession was unconstitutional, one can look at who empowered the Constitution.  It was "We the People", not We the States.  And it was enacted to create a "more perfect union", one that was perfected from the previous "perpetual union".  But the framers did provide means for amending the Constitution, and to my knowledge no secession amendments have been ratified.  It leaves only force of arms to dissolve the Union, since the various states are a part and parcel of that Union.

As for the creation of West Virginia, though you left out the "consent" part of the provision, constitutional scholars have argued this both ways.  But West Virginia is a duly recognized state nonetheless.  Of course that has nothing to do directly with the secession issue that I can see.

As for Lincoln's spending and though you left it out, his blockade, Congress authorized him to "...employ the militia and to suppress insurrections" and that authorization has been used to justify his actions.  In any case, his duty to hold together the "perpetual and more perfect Union" was no doubt a greater duty than any lesser legal or constitutional issues involved in that duty.

And yes, in this case the end did justify the means...and made it right. 
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Online DCPatriot

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Outside of Texas v White in which the USSC determined that secession was unconstitutional, one can look at who empowered the Constitution.  It was "We the People", not We the States.  And it was enacted to create a "more perfect union", one that was perfected from the previous "perpetual union".  But the framers did provide means for amending the Constitution, and to my knowledge no secession amendments have been ratified.  It leaves only force of arms to dissolve the Union, since the various states are a part and parcel of that Union.

As for the creation of West Virginia, though you left out the "consent" part of the provision, constitutional scholars have argued this both ways.  But West Virginia is a duly recognized state nonetheless.  Of course that has nothing to do directly with the secession issue that I can see.

As for Lincoln's spending and though you left it out, his blockade, Congress authorized him to "...employ the militia and to suppress insurrections" and that authorization has been used to justify his actions.  In any case, his duty to hold together the "perpetual and more perfect Union" was no doubt a greater duty than any lesser legal or constitutional issues involved in that duty.

And yes, in this case the end did justify the means...and made it right.

Enjoy very much your debate with both you and Bigun.  Good points from both side.  Especially admire your grasp of our history.    :beer:

"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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"It was only a sunny smile, and little it cost in the giving, but like morning light it scattered the night and made the day worth living" F. Scott Fitzgerald

Offline MACVSOG68

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Enjoy very much your debate with both you and Bigun.  Good points from both side.  Especially admire your grasp of our history.    :beer:

Thanks DC.   :patriot:
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Online Bigun

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And yes, in this case the end did justify the means...and made it right.

"And this is the tendency of all human governments. A departure from principle in one instance becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of the society is reduced to be mere automatons of misery, and to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering.

Then begins, indeed, the bellum omnium in omnia, which some philosophers observing to be so general in this world, have mistaken it for the natural, instead of the abusive state of man.

And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.


 Thomas Jefferson, letter to Sam Kercheval about reform of the Virginia Constitution, July 12, 1816; "The Writings of Thomas Jefferson," Definitive Edition, Albert Ellery Bergh, Editor, The Thomas Jefferson Memorial Association (1905) Vol. XV, p. 40

Where does it stop Mac? Does it stop?
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Enjoy very much your debate with both you and Bigun.  Good points from both side.  Especially admire your grasp of our history.    :beer:

I thank you as well DC!  :beer:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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Where does it stop Mac? Does it stop?

I don't know Bigun.  Perhaps it's all just requiring a lot higher critic than my pay grade.  But you said earlier that my historical perspective was oversimplified.  And yes, you're right about that as well as who writes the history.  While I stand by the facts I've found, I admit history is much more than just facts.  It's judgments about right and wrong, causation versus correlation, and the weight we put on events.  There are always two sides of an issue.  That means there are multiple truths, and multiple moral interpretations.  But we each take our position and hope we are being honest with ourselves at least.

Some things start out right (in our respective judgment) but go awry during the development and growth.  What we have in Washington today is not representative of the awesome start of our history.  Ending slavery and saving the Union isn't the cause of today's political nightmare.   That is caused by men today.  They cannot blame Lincoln or anyone else any more than Obama can continue to blame his predecessor for his actions. 

Unfortunately (depending on one's perspective) our Constitution left a lot of unanswered questions, and those who left and went home that Fall day in 1787 knew that many of the serious questions would have to be answered by future generations.  It was written by flawed men and today is being interpreted by flawed men.  I sense we have a lot to answer for to future generations.  Have a good evening.
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Online Bigun

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I don't know Bigun.  Perhaps it's all just requiring a lot higher critic than my pay grade.  But you said earlier that my historical perspective was oversimplified.  And yes, you're right about that as well as who writes the history.  While I stand by the facts I've found, I admit history is much more than just facts.  It's judgments about right and wrong, causation versus correlation, and the weight we put on events.  There are always two sides of an issue.  That means there are multiple truths, and multiple moral interpretations.  But we each take our position and hope we are being honest with ourselves at least.

Some things start out right (in our respective judgment) but go awry during the development and growth.  What we have in Washington today is not representative of the awesome start of our history.  Ending slavery and saving the Union isn't the cause of today's political nightmare.   That is caused by men today.  They cannot blame Lincoln or anyone else any more than Obama can continue to blame his predecessor for his actions. 

Unfortunately (depending on one's perspective) our Constitution left a lot of unanswered questions, and those who left and went home that Fall day in 1787 knew that many of the serious questions would have to be answered by future generations.  It was written by flawed men and today is being interpreted by flawed men.  I sense we have a lot to answer for to future generations.  Have a good evening.

It seems to me that we would all be FAR better off if those questions were dealt with within the framework those flawed men built but that is, as you point out, just one man's opinion.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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It seems to me that we would all be FAR better off if those questions were dealt with within the framework those flawed men built but that is, as you point out, just one man's opinion.

But isn't that what we've been doing?  Most constitutional questions seem focused on what the Constitution really says and what the authors meant.  And when those questions are taken to the SCOTUS, they are rarely answered with a 9-0 decision.  The question of whether a state could secede was a split decision by the USSC, and in the end, the decision was crafted on logic rather than anything specific in the Constitution.  But just another man's opinion, lol.
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Online Bigun

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But isn't that what we've been doing?  Most constitutional questions seem focused on what the Constitution really says and what the authors meant.  And when those questions are taken to the SCOTUS, they are rarely answered with a 9-0 decision.  The question of whether a state could secede was a split decision by the USSC, and in the end, the decision was crafted on logic rather than anything specific in the Constitution.  But just another man's opinion, lol.

And that decision was made with a stacked court in place to ensure just the result they got IMHO!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Online Bigun

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Outside of Texas v White in which the USSC determined that secession was unconstitutional, one can look at who empowered the Constitution.  It was "We the People", not We the States.  And it was enacted to create a "more perfect union", one that was perfected from the previous "perpetual union".  But the framers did provide means for amending the Constitution, and to my knowledge no secession amendments have been ratified.  It leaves only force of arms to dissolve the Union, since the various states are a part and parcel of that Union.

Well! I'll give you one thing! You have the dogma down pat!

I've already partially addressed Texas Vs White in part but will add that a fellow by the name of St. George Tucker -  a man most people these days have never heard of because the revisionists have made every effort to erase his name from history -  even though he was a VERY prominent jurist in the history of the United States and accomplished GREAT things including annotating Blackstone's Law to incorporate the U.S. Constitution. A six volume work which was THE law book in every corner of the U.S for moist of the first half of the 19th century and about which, in-so-far as I have been able to determine, no question was raised for most of that period.  The learned Mr. Tucker had a lot to say about this very issue in that work which again was not questioned for fifty years. I'll share a couple of those things with you along with a source citation.

Although the federal government can, in no possible view, be considered as a party to a compact made anterior to its existence, and by which it was, in fact, created; yet as the creature of that compact, it must be bound by it, to its creators, the several states in the union, and the citizens thereof. Having no existence but under the constitution, nor any rights, but such as that instrument confers; and those very rights being in fact duties; it can possess no legitimate power, but such, as is absolutely necessary for the performance of a duty, prescribed and enjoined by the constitution. Its duties, then, become the exact measure of its powers; and wherever it exerts a power for any other purpose, than the performance of a duty prescribed by the constitution, it transgresses its proper limits, and violates the public trust. Its duties, being moreover imposed for the general benefit and security of the several states, in their politic character; and of the people, both in their sovereign, and individual capacity, if these objects be not obtained, the government will not answer the end of its creation: it is therefore bound to the several states, respectively, and to every citizen thereof, for the due execution of those duties. And the observance of this obligation is enforced, by the solemn sanction of an oath, from all who administer the government.
The constitution of the United States, then being that instrument by which the federal government hath been created; its powers defined, and limited; and the duties, and functions of its several departments prescribed; the government, thus established, may be pronounced to be a confederate republic, composed of several independent, and sovereign democratic states, united for their common defence, and security against foreign nations, and for the purposes of harmony, and mutual intercourse between each other; each state retaining an entire liberty of exercising, as it thinks proper, all those parts of its sovereignty, which are not mentioned in the constitution, or act of union, as parts that ought to be exercised in common. It is the supreme law of the land, and as such binding upon the federal government; the several states; and finally upon all the citizens of the United States.... It can not be controlled, or altered without the express consent of the body politic of three fourths of the states in the union, or, of the people, of an equal number of the states. To prevent the necessity of an immediate appeal to the latter, a method is pointed out, by which amendments may be proposed and ratified by the concurrent act of two thirds of both houses of congress, and three fourths of the state legislatures: but if congress should neglect to propose amendments in this way, when they may be deemed necessary, the concurrent sense of two thirds of the state legislatures may enforce congress to call a convention, the amendments proposed by which, when ratified by the conventions of three fourths of the states, become valid, as a part of the constitution. In either mode, the assent of the body politic of the states, is necessary, either to complete, or to originate the measure



“Their submission to it’s operation is voluntary: it’s councils, it’s engagements, it’s authority are theirs, modified, and united. It’s sovereignty is an emanation from theirs, not a flame by which they have been consumed, nor a vortex in which they are swallowed up. Each is still a perfect state, still sovereign, still independent, and still capable, should the occasion require, to resume the exercise of it’s functions, as such, in the most unlimited extent."

Both excerpted from:

BLACKSTONE'S COMMENTARIES:
WITH
NOTES OF REFERENCE,
TO
THE CONSTITUTION AND LAWS,
OF THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES;
AND OF THE
COMMONWEALTH OF VIRGINIA.
IN FIVE VOLUMES.
WITH AN APPENDIX TO EACH VOLUME,
CONTAINING
SHORT TRACTS UPON SUCH SUBJECTS AS APPEARED NECESSARY
TO FORM A CONNECTED
VIEW OF THE LAWS OF VIRGINIA,
AS A MEMBER OF THE FEDERAL UNION.
BY ST. GEORGE TUCKER,
PROFESSOR OF LAW, IN THE UNIVERSITY OF WILLIAM AND MARY, AND
ONE OF THE JUDGES OF THE GENERAL COURT IN VIRGINIA.
PHILADELPHIA:
PUBLISHED BY WILLIAM YOUNG BIRCH, AND ABRAHAM SMALL,
NO. 17, SOUTH SECOND-STREET.
ROBERT CARR, PRINTER.
1803.

And then we have this from a former Secretary of State:

"The Federal Government is the creature of the States. It is not a party to the Constitution, but the result of it the creation of that agreement which was made by the States as parties. It is a mere agent, entrusted with limited powers for certain specific objects; which powers and objects are enumerated in the Constitution. Shall the agent be permitted to judge the extent of its own powers, without reference to his constituent? To a certain extent, he is compelled to do this, in the very act of exercising them, but always in subordination to the authority by whom his powers were conferred. If this were not so, the result would be, that the agent would possess every power which the agent could confer, notwithstanding the plainest and most express terms of the grant. This would be against all principle and all reason. If such a rule would prevail in regard to government, a written constitution would be the idlest thing imaginable. It would afford no barrier against the usurpations of the government, and no security for the rights and liberties of the people. If then the Federal Government has no authority to judge, in the last resort, of the extent of its own powers, with what propriety can it be said that a single department of that government may do so? Nay. It is said that this department may not only judge for itself, but for the other departments also. This is an absurdity as pernicious as it is gross and palpable. If the judiciary may determine the powers of the Federal Government, it may pronounce them either less or more than they really are. "

Abel Upshur, The Federal government: Its true nature and character


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As for the creation of West Virginia, though you left out the "consent" part of the provision, constitutional scholars have argued this both ways.  But West Virginia is a duly recognized state nonetheless.  Of course that has nothing to do directly with the secession issue that I can see.

And there is NO WAY on earth the Virginia "consented" to the formation of the State of West Virginia within it's boundaries and you know it!

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As for Lincoln's spending and though you left it out, his blockade, Congress authorized him to "...employ the militia and to suppress insurrections" and that authorization has been used to justify his actions.  In any case, his duty to hold together the "perpetual and more perfect Union" was no doubt a greater duty than any lesser legal or constitutional issues involved in that duty.

Uh NO! That is NOT how the process works and you well know that as well!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline GourmetDan

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Thanks Bigun.  Appreciate the information and arguments you have provided.  Some I knew, some I did not.  Appreciate all.   :patriot:

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Online Bigun

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Thanks Bigun.  Appreciate the information and arguments you have provided.  Some I knew, some I did not.  Appreciate all.   :patriot:

You are quite welcome!

The truth is out there for anyone willing to do what is necessary to find it!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline MACVSOG68

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And that decision was made with a stacked court in place to ensure just the result they got IMHO!

That's what they say about every significant decision made since the SCOTUS let Jefferson know it was a legitimate and equal third part of the government.  But just because almost all of the members of the Court were appointed by Republicans, they weren't all together on the issue.  The conservative Republicans believed that secession was illegal therefore the state in question never left the Union.  The Radical Republicans believed the state in question did leave (illegally or not) and was then a conquered territory and not a state per se.

Still the majority decision based on the logic contained in the Constitution is hard to argue with.  The Constitution's Preamble sets one of its goals as "a more perfect Union" following the Articles of Confederation which declared the United States as a perpetual union.  That would make the United States a perpetual, thus "indivisible" union, as most of us have said numerous times in the Pledge of Allegiance.

States no longer had the same freedoms or powers they had under the Articles or before when they voluntarily supported the revolution.  The amount of powers they retained as we all know continue to be debated today.  But surely one of them wasn't to come and go as they pleased.  Still, the Constitution did provide for amendments to it, and if a large enough majority of states decide to meet and ratify an amendment to permit secession, that power does exist.

The fact that there were no specific words in the Constitution to prevent secession, the framers no doubt understood the meaning of the words "more perfect" and "perpetual".    The Constitution was written and ratified as the means to strengthen the union created from the earlier Articles, not to weaken it.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!