Author Topic: Two Ukrainian fighter jets downs as Kiev accuses Moscow of sending more arms to separatists  (Read 933 times)

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Offline mystery-ak

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http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/23/2-ukrainian-military-fighter-jets-shot-down-in-eastern-ukraine/

By Iana ZagaruikoPublished July 23, 2014

DONETSK, Ukraine –  Two Ukrainian military fighter jets were shot down over the nation’s contested eastern region on Wednesday, even as local sources said Russian weaponry has been pouring in to separatists following the downing of a Malaysian passenger plane last week.

The Ukrainian Defense Ministry said a pair of Sukhoi-25 fighters were shot down 1:30 p.m. local time Wednesday over an area called Savur Mogila. Defense Ministry spokesman Oleksiy Dmitrashkovsky says the planes may have been carrying up to two crew members each.

Reuters reported that Kiev blamed the latest incident on pro-Russian separatists, who are suspected of downing Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 last Thursday, killing all 298 aboard. Although Russia has denied supplying the ethnic Russian separatists with sophisticated Buk surface-to-air missile batteries, the kind suspected of bringing down MA-17, Ukrainian defense officials say heavy weaponry is flowing into the Donetsk region that the separatists now control.

More than a dozen Russian-made multiple launch rocket systems crossed the Ukrainian-Russian border on Tuesday, according to Andriy Lysenko, the spokesman for the information center of the National Security and Defense Council. Those weapons are artillery, and built for shelling land-based targts.

The spokesman said that Russia in recent days had started supplying more sophisticated weapons to militants in eastern Ukraine, in particular, modified Grad systems.

The Grad is a mobile battery mounted on truck fitted with a bank of 40 launch tubes that can be turned away from the unprotected cab. The number of rockets that each vehicle is able to quickly bring to bear on an enemy target makes it effective, especially at shorter ranges. The system has lower precision than classical artillery and cannot be used in situations that call for pinpoint precision.

"Some 14 Grad systems today have crossed the state border. We have documented this and passed the information on to Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council,” Lysenko said.

Lysenko added that Ukrainian servicemen had taken control of several cities occupied by separatists in eastern Ukraine and seized vehicles, ammunition and small weapons. Lysenko said the arsenal has not only Russian markings, but also the relevant documentation.

"You can see the Russian tank T-64 BV, which is not in the records of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Servicemen seized it during the terrorists' assault on a Ukrainian military unit in Artemivsk,” he said. “Now you see an APC-80, which is also a Russian-made vehicle. These are the accompanying operational documents. There is an official seal of the Russian Federation and a note explaining that this APC was put in commission and it that was received to be used in combat operations."

Moscow, meanwhile, denied supplying military equipment to Russian fighters, who have clashed with Kiev following the Russia's annexation of Crimea in March.

On Monday, Ukrainian officials charged Russian experts were present at the crash site of the Malaysian airliner. U.S. intelligence officials believe the Boeing 777 was likely shot down by a Russian surface-to-air missile in the possession of Kremlin-backed fighters. 

“We have confirmed there were Russian military experts disguised as civilians were at the crash site,” Ukrainian Presidential Administration deputy chief Hennadiy Zubko said on July 21 during an interview on Channel 5 TV. 

Zubko said Ukrainian emergency workers were initially denied access to site, which is located in an area of eastern Ukraine controlled by Kremlin-backed forces. Zubko said some 350 employees of Ukraine's Emergency Ministry eventually were allowed access to the area, where they recovered 282 bodies and 87 body parts. The remains arrived on July 22 in Kharkiv, from where they will be flown to Holland for identification.

Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, on July 22 said in Kiev that wreckage from the downed plane had been “significantly altered.” international monitors told ABC News today, as remains of the victims arrived in territory held by  Bociurkiw said pieces of the front of the plane's cockpit appeared to have been cut away by power tools.

The Associated Press contributed to this report

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Offline Oceander

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I suppose they shot these aircraft down with bows and arrows?  /sarc

Offline MACVSOG68

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I suppose they shot these aircraft down with bows and arrows?  /sarc

 A double suicide can't be ruled out...
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Offline GourmetDan

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Interesting that the altitude of the jets is left out of the report.  Probably not killed at 33,000 ft and the media is counting on nobody distinguishing between low-level shoot-downs and high-altitude shoot-downs.

Seems effective... at least at TBR...


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Offline GourmetDan

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It's also clear that it is the Ukrainian gov't that is provoking the separatists by sending fighters over their territory.  What are the separatists supposed to do?  Wait until they attack their positions?  If the Ukrainian gov't wanted a cease-fire they would stop sending military aircraft over separatist areas.

This isn't separatists sneaking westward and downing military and civilian jets over Kiev...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline MACVSOG68

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It's also clear that it is the Ukrainian gov't that is provoking the separatists by sending fighters over their territory.  What are the separatists supposed to do?  Wait until they attack their positions?  If the Ukrainian gov't wanted a cease-fire they would stop sending military aircraft over separatist areas.

This isn't separatists sneaking westward and downing military and civilian jets over Kiev...

I thought that was Ukrainian territory.  When the Mexicans finally decide to take California and Arizona and are armed by an outside country, does it cease belonging to the US?
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Offline GourmetDan

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I thought that was Ukrainian territory.  When the Mexicans finally decide to take California and Arizona and are armed by an outside country, does it cease belonging to the US?

So then the Ukrainians did shoot down MH17...


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Offline MACVSOG68

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So then the Ukrainians did shoot down MH17...

Well, if they were the insurgents, yes they were probably Ukrainian citizens, even if they're trying to carve out yet another chunk of Ukraine for Russia.
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Offline GourmetDan

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Well, if they were the insurgents, yes they were probably Ukrainian citizens, even if they're trying to carve out yet another chunk of Ukraine for Russia.

And if they weren't insurgents, yes they were probably Ukrainian citizens too, even agreeing with the overthrow of the pro-Russian elected Ukrainian government in favor of a pro-western, bankster-led, illegitimate ruling-class.

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline EC

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This is bollocks. Total, complete and utter bollocks.

The Su-25 was designed to be pretty much invisible to heat seekers. We are not looking at seperatists with cheap MANPADs here.
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Offline GourmetDan

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This is bollocks. Total, complete and utter bollocks.

The Su-25 was designed to be pretty much invisible to heat seekers. We are not looking at seperatists with cheap MANPADs here.

Designed to be invisible to heat seekers?  Sorry no.  Protected by flare-dispensers, yes.

And nobody said anything about heat-seekers, not me certainly.

But nice diversion anyway...


« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 12:49:17 PM by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline EC

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Designed to be invisible to heat seekers?  Sorry no.  Protected by flare-dispensers, yes.

And nobody said anything about heat-seekers, not me certainly.

But nice diversion anyway...

No Dan. Not a diversion. Output is cooled down to virtually ambient by extra intakes both above and below the wings. It's a magic thing called cooling. Wanna call BS on someone - do it on someone who hasn't flown in anger, fuckhead.
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Offline GourmetDan

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No Dan. Not a diversion. Output is cooled down to virtually ambient by extra intakes both above and below the wings. It's a magic thing called cooling. Wanna call BS on someone - do it on someone who hasn't flown in anger, bleephead.

So why the flare-dispensers if it was virtually invisible to heat-seekers from the get-go, bleephead.

And again, who said anything about heat-seekers besides you?

« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 12:59:09 PM by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline MACVSOG68

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And if they weren't insurgents, yes they were probably Ukrainian citizens too, even agreeing with the overthrow of the pro-Russian elected Ukrainian government in favor of a pro-western, bankster-led, illegitimate ruling-class.

So you have reached conclusions too, huh?  You're preaching to the choir on that one.  I've said before I don't like the Ukrainian government, but they aren't a threat to the region as Russia is.  And I doubt anyone believes Russia isn't on a very expansionist move, even you.
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Offline GourmetDan

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So you have reached conclusions too, huh?  You're preaching to the choir on that one.  I've said before I don't like the Ukrainian government, but they aren't a threat to the region as Russia is.  And I doubt anyone believes Russia isn't on a very expansionist move, even you.

I never said not to ever reach a conclusion.  I do distinguish between 'reaching a conclusion' and 'swallowing the western-media version', however.  NATO and the west replaced the elected pro-Russian gov't because they wanted one more pro-western.

Had the elected pro-Russian Ukrainian gov't been left in place, there would be no conflict in the region today.

The bankster-installed Ukrainian gov't is definitely the greatest threat to the region today.

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline EC

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So why the flare-dispensers if it was virtually invisible to heat-seekers from the get-go, bleephead.

And again, who said anything about heat-seekers besides you?

Dan - I am really sorry. It has been somewhere far north of a very incredibly shitty day today. Accept my apology, please.

What I am saying - and have been saying all along, is that the missiles the supposed "rebels" have are way too capable to be your basic MANPADs or heat seekers. They are laser or radar guided - they have to be. Not things you can pick up with spare change and give to Joe Rebel to use.

Sure, a heat seeker can get in a lucky up the kilt shot on a Su-24, even though it is designed to be pretty much IR neutral. It's about the only place they can really lock on. The chances are like one in a million though - and two in a day? That is like winning the lottery every week for a year levels of luck.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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I never said not to ever reach a conclusion.  I do distinguish between 'reaching a conclusion' and 'swallowing the western-media version', however.  NATO and the west replaced the elected pro-Russian gov't because they wanted one more pro-western.

Had the elected pro-Russian Ukrainian gov't been left in place, there would be no conflict in the region today.

The bankster-installed Ukrainian gov't is definitely the greatest threat to the region today.

Russia wants the Ukraine for a variety of reasons.  It's puppet was removed, and now you believe that Ukraine is the greatest threat to the region?  By that logic, if Israel were destroyed, there'd be peace in the ME as only Muslims would exist in the region.  And so long as Russia continues to want the Baltic States, they, not Russia are a threat to the region.  I'm curious Dan, do you believe that Russia wants to expand beyond its current borders?
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Offline GourmetDan

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Dan - I am really sorry. It has been somewhere far north of a very incredibly shitty day today. Accept my apology, please.

Well, don't come on a thread saying 'bollocks' to something that isn't even being discussed and we'll all be fine.

It isn't even about what weapon shot down those SU-25's.  It's about the Ukrainian gov't provoking the situation and then playing innocent victim to increase western pressure on Russia.

The separatists are the ones who had their country stolen by pro-western banksters after the election didn't turn out the way the West wanted it to.  Who's to say those same forces can't do the same thing to the U.S.?  Nothing, nothing at all.

People need to wake up and stop believing the crap the western-media feeds them.  It's so obvious and it's sickening to watch people being herded into war.  Didn't work w/ Syria so try it again in Ukraine.



"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline GourmetDan

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Russia wants the Ukraine for a variety of reasons.  It's puppet was removed, and now you believe that Ukraine is the greatest threat to the region?  By that logic, if Israel were destroyed, there'd be peace in the ME as only Muslims would exist in the region.  And so long as Russia continues to want the Baltic States, they, not Russia are a threat to the region.  I'm curious Dan, do you believe that Russia wants to expand beyond its current borders?

It wasn't Russia's puppet.  It was an elected pro-Russian gov't that was removed and it is the pro-western banksters that are provoking the situation because they are losing.


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline EC

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Well, don't come on a thread saying 'bollocks' to something that isn't even being discussed and we'll all be fine.

It isn't even about what weapon shot down those SU-25's.  It's about the Ukrainian gov't provoking the situation and then playing innocent victim to increase western pressure on Russia.

The separatists are the ones who had their country stolen by pro-western banksters after the election didn't turn out the way the West wanted it to.  Who's to say those same forces can't do the same thing to the U.S.?  Nothing, nothing at all.

People need to wake up and stop believing the crap the western-media feeds them.  It's so obvious and it's sickening to watch people being herded into war.  Didn't work w/ Syria so try it again in Ukraine.

Then maybe pull your sanctimonious head out of your bleep ass and listen to one of the four bleep people on this board who has dealt with them up close and personal. You can't do that - your world view is sacrosanct and can't be changed. You are an unmitigated tit. The world is what it is, not is what you want. Deflect, deny - what the sam hill are you, a liberal?

Stop wasting my time.



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Offline katzenjammer

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It wasn't Russia's puppet.  It was an elected pro-Russian gov't that was removed and it is the pro-western banksters that are provoking the situation because they are losing.

This is a long running saga.  At the present I think 0bmmy's role is playing Brier Rabbit, "oh please no, please don't throw me into another war..."

Offline GourmetDan

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Then maybe pull your sanctimonious head out of your bleeping ass and listen to one of the four bleeping people on this board who has dealt with them up close and personal. You can't do that - your world view is sacrosanct and can't be changed. You are an unmitigated tit. The world is what it is, not is what you want. Deflect, deny - what the sam hill are you, a liberal?

Stop wasting my time.

Simple suggestion.  Use the Ignore feature.

It works great...

"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline GourmetDan

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This is a long running saga.  At the present I think 0bmmy's role is playing Brier Rabbit, "oh please no, please don't throw me into another war..."

I think Bambi's in a more difficult situation than that.  I don't think he wants war but is being pressured to engage in one by the same people who took over the Ukrainian gov't.

He already backed out of his 'red line' threat to Syria and if he doesn't figure out a way to bring the U.S. into conflict w/ the Russians, his handlers will be looking for someone who will.


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline katzenjammer

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I think Bambi's in a more difficult situation than that.  I don't think he wants war but is being pressured to engage in one by the same people who took over the Ukrainian gov't.

He already backed out of his 'red line' threat to Syria and if he doesn't figure out a way to bring the U.S. into conflict w/ the Russians, his handlers will be looking for someone who will.

I'm not so sure that there is any daylight between what he wants and what his handlers want (other than timing).  But I could be mistaken on that.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 02:04:58 PM by katzenjammer »

Offline GourmetDan

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I'm not so sure that there is any daylight between what he wants and what his handlers want (other than timing).  But I could be mistaken on that.

As I commented on another thread, he could be setting the U.S. up for an ass-kicking in Russia's back yard.

What would we do if the Russkies take out an Aegis cruiser or something that we send to help the Ukrainians?

It could get real ugly real fast...


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan


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