Ukraine Separatists Didn’t Launch That Missile

[MACVSOG68]

All while the western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.

Actually, if one were to look at the various network pages, one would find that most of the articles also include Putin's claims about Ukraine's alleged involvement.  For the most part, the articles are more focused on what the national leaders have been saying, including the US, Germany, Netherlands, and of course Russia and Ukraine. 

But I know how you feel about reading versus thinking...

[Oceander]

I've heard many of the 'separatists' are ex-Ukrainian military who used similar weapons systems in the past.

Here's the article about the possibility of Ukrainian escort jet:

http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7

Thanks for the link.  That theory is intriguing and could very well be possible - essentially a mistake by the missile operator who thought he was firing on a Ukrainian military aircraft - something the separatists (and the Russians) obviously think is a legitimate target - and instead inadvertently targeted the civilian aircraft instead.

That being said, it still doesn't absolve the separatists or the Russians - both bear full responsibility for the shoot-down - but it does also have the ring of truth and does suggest that the Ukraine gov't has a little egg on its face as well, at least in terms of the optics.

[GourmetDan]

Actually, if one were to look at the various network pages, one would find that most of the articles also include Putin's claims about Ukraine's alleged involvement.  For the most part, the articles are more focused on what the national leaders have been saying, including the US, Germany, Netherlands, and of course Russia and Ukraine. 

Actually, you didn't answer why western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.

So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?

But I know how you feel about reading versus thinking...

I seriously doubt that you do...

[wolfcreek]

Thanks for the link.  That theory is intriguing and could very well be possible - essentially a mistake by the missile operator who thought he was firing on a Ukrainian military aircraft - something the separatists (and the Russians) obviously think is a legitimate target - and instead inadvertently targeted the civilian aircraft instead.

That being said, it still doesn't absolve the separatists or the Russians - both bear full responsibility for the shoot-down - but it does also have the ring of truth and does suggest that the Ukraine gov't has a little egg on its face as well, at least in terms of the optics.

It begs to question why, if the plane had escorts, why didn't they either lead the plane out of that airspace or use their counter measures to ward off the missile(s)?

[GourmetDan]

It begs to question why, if the plane had escorts, why didn't they either lead the plane out of that airspace or use their counter measures to ward off the missile(s)?

Or why was the plane diverted into that airspace in the first place?

Too many questions that the western-msm doesn't want to ask and the western pols don't want to answer, is my guess...

[DCPatriot]

We're going to find out that one single Ukrainian air-traffic controller was responsible for getting MH-17 to divert course...and lower their altitude at 33K ft.... to enter the 'kill zone'.

The British now have the black boxes to analyze.  And we know that the PM of Britain has already blamed the Russians.   M16 can make the 'evidence' say anything they want it to say.

There is no logical reason why Putin would shoot the plane down. And the separatists didn't have the capability.

Furthermore, Kiev refuses to release the radar grabs.  It was reported in Kiev itself the day after the shoot down, that Ukrainian jets were tailing.....maybe forcing ML17 to enter the kill zone.

Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer.

[Oceander]

We're going to find out that one single Ukrainian air-traffic controller was responsible for getting MH-17 to divert course...and lower their altitude at 33K ft.... to enter the 'kill zone'.

The British now have the black boxes to analyze.  And we know that the PM of Britain has already blamed the Russians.   M16 can make the 'evidence' say anything they want it to say.

There is no logical reason why Putin would shoot the plane down. And the separatists didn't have the capability.

Furthermore, Kiev refuses to release the radar grabs.  It was reported in Kiev itself the day after the shoot down, that Ukrainian jets were tailing.....maybe forcing ML17 to enter the kill zone.

Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer.

And there is no Earthly reason for the Ukrainians to have shot the plane down either.

[EC]

It begs to question why, if the plane had escorts, why didn't they either lead the plane out of that airspace or use their counter measures to ward off the missile(s)?

Leading out - no idea what so ever. It seems a no brainer.

CM though - they are limited. Look, my experience is restricted to 360 mph (and if you ever tell my CO I'll deny that with a straight face). Not 600. That really changes the dynamic.

If something has a radar lock on you, you need to respond lightning fast and perfectly co-ordinated. Especialy if it is homing in on your own sig. If it's a laser lock - you got 40 seconds to write your will.

[GourmetDan]

Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer.

You've already had one tweeting who subsequently 'disappeared'...

Carlos Spanish Kiev Air Traffic Controller Real. All His Tweets day of MH 17 shot down.

OK, found you...

[DCPatriot]

You've already had one tweeting who subsequently 'disappeared'...

Carlos Spanish Kiev Air Traffic Controller Real. All His Tweets day of MH 17 shot down.

OK, found you...

Thanks, Dan!   

[GourmetDan]

Thanks, Dan!

You know, that is the kind of thing I would expect that an independent press would report in trying to get to the bottom of this.

Apparently, my thinking is being tainted by 'foreign sources'...   

[DCPatriot]

You know, that is the kind of thing I would expect that an independent press would report in trying to get to the bottom of this.

Apparently, my thinking is being tainted by 'foreign sources'...

Can't go there with you, if you're referring to the sparring you're having with MAC.

But for what it's worth, IMO, you have him 'pegged' incorrectly. 

Thoughtful...pragmatic.  Two words that come to mind.

[GourmetDan]

Can't go there with you, if you're referring to the sparring you're having with MAC.

But for what it's worth, IMO, you have him 'pegged' incorrectly. 

Thoughtful...pragmatic.  Two words that come to mind.

Oh well... not how I would describe my experience...

[DCPatriot]

Oh well... not how I would describe my experience...

 

[wolfcreek]

Or why was the plane diverted into that airspace in the first place?

Too many questions that the western-msm doesn't want to ask and the western pols don't want to answer, is my guess...

Oh Hell No! Herr Leader has already stated who is at fault.

[wolfcreek]

And there is no Earthly reason for the Ukrainians to have shot the plane down either.

Possibly as a false flag to garner international attention?

[wolfcreek]

Leading out - no idea what so ever. It seems a no brainer.

CM though - they are limited. Look, my experience is restricted to 360 mph (and if you ever tell my CO I'll deny that with a straight face). Not 600. That really changes the dynamic.

If something has a radar lock on you, you need to respond lightning fast and perfectly co-ordinated. Especialy if it is homing in on your own sig. If it's a laser lock - you got 40 seconds to write your will.

Thank for that bit of info. It explains some of my questions.

My lips are sealed BTW. 

[Oceander]

Possibly as a false flag to garner international attention?

except that we've all quickly concluded - see above - that the Russians/separatists could have no Earthly reason to shoot the plane down, so any such false flag would be highly implausible.

I'm leaning more and more to the "accident" theory:  that the separatist/Russian missile operator intended to hit a Ukrainian military aircraft and, most likely through inexperience and lack of training, hit the civilian aircraft instead.

[MACVSOG68]

Actually, you didn't answer why western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.

You mean when Russia took over the Crimea?  Or when the Ukrainians dumped their Russian puppet president?  Or when Ukraine pushed back against the EU in favor of Russia?  Which conduct are you referring to?  But actually your charge was that the MSM was totally ignoring Russian claims about the downing of the 777, which obviously they weren't.

I seriously doubt that you do...

Well I'm trying to learn from the great thinkers...

[Oceander]

You mean when Russia took over the Crimea?  Or when the Ukrainians dumped their Russian puppet president?  Or when Ukraine pushed back against the EU in favor of Russia?  Which conduct are you referring to?  But actually your charge was that the MSM was totally ignoring Russian claims about the downing of the 777, which obviously they weren't.

Well I'm trying to learn from the great thinkers...

[MACVSOG68]

except that we've all quickly concluded - see above - that the Russians/separatists could have no Earthly reason to shoot the plane down, so any such false flag would be highly implausible.

I'm leaning more and more to the "accident" theory:  that the separatist/Russian missile operator intended to hit a Ukrainian military aircraft and, most likely through inexperience and lack of training, hit the civilian aircraft instead.

That's the most logical working theory.  Russia itself has no reason to create this, but every reason to help cover it up.  Ukraine's possible motive could be to frame the separatists.  Right now, most of the civilized world thinks the weight of evidence points to the separatists.

[MACVSOG68]

Oh well... not how I would describe my experience...

...Never mind.  :nometalk:

[Fishrrman]

DCPatriot wrote above:
[[ Now....if that ATC guy happens to have an accident, we'll have our answer. ]]

I wouldn't be surprised if the members of the BUK crew that fired the missile have now gone "missing"....

.... as in, permanently.

[MACVSOG68]

Can't go there with you, if you're referring to the sparring you're having with MAC.

But for what it's worth, IMO, you have him 'pegged' incorrectly. 

Thoughtful...pragmatic.  Two words that come to mind.

Thanks DC.  I probably should be a little more circumspect with my words.   

[Oceander]

That's the most logical working theory.  Russia itself has no reason to create this, but every reason to help cover it up.  Ukraine's possible motive could be to frame the separatists.  Right now, most of the civilized world thinks the weight of evidence points to the separatists.

Certainly, but I find it unlikely that the Ukrainians would be so cold-blooded as to kill everyone aboard that plane simply to create an implausible frame for the separatists - implausible because the separatists have no reason to shoot down civilian aircraft.  I'm not saying it's impossible - nothing's impossible - I'm just saying that the theory should be kept in the fridge (i.e., not even on the back burner) until/unless really good evidence indicates that it did happen.

I, too, think the weight of the evidence points to the separatists firing a missile system the Russians provided them with; I also think that this was a tragic mistake caused by an ill-trained operator who thought he was shooting at another Ukrainian military craft.  No doubt the Russians provided this system (and maybe others) with the intent that the separatists start shooting down Ukrainian military craft - that certainly would have upped the temperatures and tempers on both sides - and are now chagrined - if that word even really applies to the likes of Putin (I can't think of a better term right now) - that their separatists made such a huge blunder.  A blunder because shooting down Ukrainian military craft is a good way to keep everything riled up without really getting the West - Europe and the US - too worked up about it; shooting down a civilian aircraft that had nothing to do with Ukraine other than its transient presence in Ukraine airspace does appear to have finally gotten the attention of the Europeans and the US in a way that to-date Putin has managed to avoid.