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Offline rangerrebew

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« on: July 22, 2014, 09:17:17 AM »
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 09:19:33 AM by rangerrebew »
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2014, 09:48:01 AM »
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 09:49:32 AM by GourmetDan »
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Offline MACVSOG68

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« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2014, 10:24:23 AM »
Did Putin blame the shootdown on the separatists?  I hadn't seen that being reported.

Also haven't seen much emphasis on the Ukrainian military fighter that was within air-to-air missile range of MH17 just before it fell out of the sky...

The latest I've heard is that Russia is still suggesting that the Ukraine forces may have shot it down.  But they are back-peddling.  Russia did finally approve a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation after the wording was changed from "shot down" to "downed".  And the Russians are reporting on Ukrainian air force strikes near the downed plane.
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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2014, 10:33:54 AM »
The latest I've heard is that Russia is still suggesting that the Ukraine forces may have shot it down.  But they are back-peddling.  Russia did finally approve a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation after the wording was changed from "shot down" to "downed".  And the Russians are reporting on Ukrainian air force strikes near the downed plane.

I did hear that the alleged separatist phone conversations were 'digitally re-mastered', which makes their authenticity highly-suspect.

They seem to have dropped off the radar as far as 'evidence' goes...


« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 10:34:18 AM by GourmetDan »
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline MACVSOG68

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« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2014, 11:11:41 AM »
I did hear that the alleged separatist phone conversations were 'digitally re-mastered', which makes their authenticity highly-suspect.

They seem to have dropped off the radar as far as 'evidence' goes...

I do think the separatists are acting a tad too guilty, and I doubt the black boxes are going to be much help.  If legitimate investigators on the ground find no missile fragments, then I'd have to think Russia is more than just a little involved. 
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Offline Chieftain

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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2014, 11:19:09 AM »
I did hear that the alleged separatist phone conversations were 'digitally re-mastered', which makes their authenticity highly-suspect.

They seem to have dropped off the radar as far as 'evidence' goes...

I think that site has been sanitized in a way only the KGB could organize.  I don't think we will ever find out more than we know right now, the black boxes will tell them exactly nothing about who shot that plane down, and this will sink and eventually disappear into the obscurity of our collective memory hole.

I do wonder what Obama's response would be if Putin were blocking a fundraiser.....

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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 11:32:31 AM »
I do think the separatists are acting a tad too guilty, and I doubt the black boxes are going to be much help.  If legitimate investigators on the ground find no missile fragments, then I'd have to think Russia is more than just a little involved.

Remember that you are being fed the western-media version of 'acting guilty'.

I think I have developed a full-blown aversion to believing anything the western-media tells me.  Having access to the other side's version makes the msm-version so obviously one-sided that I just automatically believe they're lying to me...

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Offline MACVSOG68

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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2014, 11:41:58 AM »
Remember that you are being fed the western-media version of 'acting guilty'.

I think I have developed a full-blown aversion to believing anything the western-media tells me.  Having access to the other side's version makes the msm-version so obviously one-sided that I just automatically believe they're lying to me...

Even on Russia Today, they are carefully parsing their words.  They aren't blaming the separatists, and seem only to be suggesting there may be another side to the story.  The smoking gun (so to speak) should be the missile pieces.  If there aren't any, then yes, I would consider that a strong indication of separatist or Russian guilt.  One Russian comment I heard was that the Ukrainian government control tower redirected the plane to where it was hit.  If so, a point for the Russian side.
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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2014, 11:55:30 AM »

Even on Russia Today, they are carefully parsing their words.  They aren't blaming the separatists, and seem only to be suggesting there may be another side to the story.  The smoking gun (so to speak) should be the missile pieces.  If there aren't any, then yes, I would consider that a strong indication of separatist or Russian guilt.  One Russian comment I heard was that the Ukrainian government control tower redirected the plane to where it was hit.  If so, a point for the Russian side.


Um, no.  The lack of missile pieces may explain why there was no smoke-trail coming down.  There was no missile.

And yes, the Ukrainian air-traffic control did divert MH17.  Airliners can't just change course because they feel like it.

It may seem that they are 'carefully parsing' their words because (unlike the msm) they are only reporting what they know rather than what they want you to believe.

Used to be known as journalism back in the olden days...

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Offline EC

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« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2014, 12:10:34 PM »
I think that site has been sanitized in a way only the KGB could organize.  I don't think we will ever find out more than we know right now, the black boxes will tell them exactly nothing about who shot that plane down, and this will sink and eventually disappear into the obscurity of our collective memory hole.

I do wonder what Obama's response would be if Putin were blocking a fundraiser.....

 :smokin:

We have had a few stories of "It's too dangerous for the investigators." It's a decent size area to sanitize, but it is certainly doable in the time they had.

I'm troubled by a couple of conflicting reports - it could be the usual early reporting fog of war thing though, so fist full of salt with these comments/notes.

The pictures show very definite penetration holes from a close explosion. You recognize them the first time you get one between your feet. They certainly can be faked, but the pattern looks right.

The lack of smoke trail, as Dan said. She went down under power, with the cockpit gone, not on fire. That means laser or radar guided missile, not a heat seeker, which would take out an engine, not the nose. Those are not cheap and, despite the brisk arms trade, not readily available to Joe Rebel.

The bodies being mostly naked or in shredded clothing and scattered over a wide area. Symptomatic of explosive decompression, and possibly additional evidence that the cockpit was taken out. Some of the other pictures support this idea, the airframe has been ripped apart, by the looks of it.
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Offline MACVSOG68

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« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2014, 12:13:28 PM »
Um, no.  The lack of missile pieces may explain why there was no smoke-trail coming down.  There was no missile.

My understanding is that if the missile exploded near the aircraft, there might not be any smoke trail.  But examination of the wreckage will show whether there was an explosion from within.

Quote
And yes, the Ukrainian air-traffic control did divert MH17.  Airliners can't just change course because they feel like it.

It may seem that they are 'carefully parsing' their words because (unlike the msm) they are only reporting what they know rather than what they want you to believe.

Used to be known as journalism back in the olden days...

So you're suggesting the Russian media and spokespersons are more trustworthy than the West?
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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2014, 12:22:43 PM »
My understanding is that if the missile exploded near the aircraft, there might not be any smoke trail.

Well, that's the claim anyway.

Quote
So you're suggesting the Russian media and spokespersons are more trustworthy than the West?

Well, the western-msm is certainly pleased that you think the Russians are less trustworthy.

Think about it...



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Offline MACVSOG68

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« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2014, 12:50:09 PM »
Well, that's the claim anyway.

Well, the western-msm is certainly pleased that you think the Russians are less trustworthy.

Think about it...

Yes I do think the Russians are less trustworthy, but that doesn't mean that we know the whole story in this case.  I'm guessing you've already made up your mind, but I'm still open to evidence showing the Russians and their cohorts in the east didn't have any involvement, as well as what if any involvement Ukraine had.

I do know though that if any evidence of Ukrainian culpability does exist, it won't be hidden by the so-called Group of 6 here in the West.
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Offline Chieftain

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« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2014, 12:54:04 PM »
We have had a few stories of "It's too dangerous for the investigators." It's a decent size area to sanitize, but it is certainly doable in the time they had.

I'm troubled by a couple of conflicting reports - it could be the usual early reporting fog of war thing though, so fist full of salt with these comments/notes.

The pictures show very definite penetration holes from a close explosion. You recognize them the first time you get one between your feet. They certainly can be faked, but the pattern looks right.

The lack of smoke trail, as Dan said. She went down under power, with the cockpit gone, not on fire. That means laser or radar guided missile, not a heat seeker, which would take out an engine, not the nose. Those are not cheap and, despite the brisk arms trade, not readily available to Joe Rebel.

The bodies being mostly naked or in shredded clothing and scattered over a wide area. Symptomatic of explosive decompression, and possibly additional evidence that the cockpit was taken out. Some of the other pictures support this idea, the airframe has been ripped apart, by the looks of it.

Excellent analysis.  Early reports said that the debris field was nine miles long.  Bet me it was the whole frickin' cockpit that got blown off first, and is near the leading edge of the debris footprint. 

I still think it likely that a great many of those people were alive, and possibly quite conscious all the way to impact.  The thought of making that long ride down is horrifying.

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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2014, 12:58:58 PM »
Yes I do think the Russians are less trustworthy, but that doesn't mean that we know the whole story in this case.  I'm guessing you've already made up your mind, but I'm still open to evidence showing the Russians and their cohorts in the east didn't have any involvement, as well as what if any involvement Ukraine had.

Well you just admitted that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, so laying that charge at my feet is rather disingenuous don't you think?

Quote
I do know though that if any evidence of Ukrainian culpability does exist, it won't be hidden by the so-called Group of 6 here in the West.

So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?

All you've done is go all-in for the western-msm version of events...

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Offline EC

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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2014, 01:02:43 PM »
Excellent analysis.  Early reports said that the debris field was nine miles long.  Bet me it was the whole frickin' cockpit that got blown off first, and is near the leading edge of the debris footprint. 

I still think it likely that a great many of those people were alive, and possibly quite conscious all the way to impact.  The thought of making that long ride down is horrifying.

 :smokin:

I'd not worry too much about the suffering. At 37,000 feet you will be conscious for less than 20 seconds. Wife is cabin crew and they run speed drills during training - getting into your mask and seat, with belt on, in over 20 seconds is an automatic fail. They do have their own seats at the doors, but it's why there is always one seat on each aisle in each cabin unsold too. Closest available gets used.

The state of the bodies though is also a no. You don't get pulled out of your clothes if you are riding it down. That is being pulled out into 500 mph winds.  :shrug:
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Offline MACVSOG68

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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2014, 01:46:51 PM »
Well you just admitted that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, so laying that charge at my feet is rather disingenuous don't you think?

Not really.  My Daughter-in-law is from Russia.  We speak about Russia frequently, and we disagree on some issues.  But she and her family know Putin and his "government".  Putin's background, his goals, and the fact that he's in power to stay speak volumes about his trustworthiness. But as I said a couple of times, I'm still open to other evidence.

Quote
So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?

I haven't any idea, but I do know that News Corp would put out anything that would contradict Obama, and anything of this magnitude would grab any of the outlets if they believed it to have veracity.  And the story isn't over with either.  I doubt the Dutch would hide the truth as this investigation rolls out...even if all of the media and other Western governments are in cahoots to hide it.

Quote
All you've done is go all-in for the western-msm version of events...

Umm...okay.
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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2014, 01:55:15 PM »
Not really.  My Daughter-in-law is from Russia.  We speak about Russia frequently, and we disagree on some issues.  But she and her family know Putin and his "government".  Putin's background, his goals, and the fact that he's in power to stay speak volumes about his trustworthiness. But as I said a couple of times, I'm still open to other evidence.

If you didn't admit that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, why did you say?

Yes I do think the Russians are less trustworthy...

Quote
I haven't any idea, but I do know that News Corp would put out anything that would contradict Obama, and anything of this magnitude would grab any of the outlets if they believed it to have veracity.  And the story isn't over with either.  I doubt the Dutch would hide the truth as this investigation rolls out...even if all of the media and other Western governments are in cahoots to hide it.

How do you know that since you don't know why...

So why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed why MH17 was diverted by Ukrainian air-traffic controllers?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that a Ukrainian military jet was within missile-range of MH17?  Why hasn't the 'group of 6' addressed the claim that Ukrainian BUK radar was operating in the area where MH17 came down?


"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

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Offline MACVSOG68

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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2014, 02:09:37 PM »
If you didn't admit that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, why did you say?

 

Yes, the Russians are less trustworthy , but as the saying goes, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut" could apply here.  The fact that they're less trustworthy and in this case have a very strong reason to hide the truth doesn't mean that they did the dirty deed.  I believe right now that they were involved, but as I've said, The Dutch will likely pursue the truth.
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Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2014, 02:29:56 PM »
Well you just admitted that you have already made up your mind that the Russians are less trustworthy than the western-msm, so laying that charge at my feet is rather disingenuous
Yes, the Russians are less trustworthy , ...

So why did you say?

Not really.

... but as the saying goes, "Even a blind squirrel finds a nut" could apply here.

So why doesn't the western-msm respond to Russian claims since you 'know' that News Corp and the Dutch wouldn't hide the truth and the Russian media may be correct?

Don't serious charges deserve a response?  It should be easy to discredit these charges, yet they are simply flushed down the memory-hole.



The fact that they're less trustworthy and in this case have a very strong reason to hide the truth doesn't mean that they did the dirty deed.  I believe right now that they were involved, but as I've said, The Dutch will likely pursue the truth.

Too bad you can't see that you merely 'assume' that the western-msm is more trustworthy and that you fail to see that the Ukrainians have just as strong a reason to blame the Russians.

And the Dutch will 'likely' pursue the truth?  Why would they not?

All while the western-msm fails to respond to Russian reports that raise questions about Ukrainian conduct prior to this tragedy.




"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." - Ecclesiastes 10:2

"The sole purpose of the Republican Party is to serve as an ineffective alternative to the Democrat Party." - GourmetDan

Offline rangerrebew

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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2014, 03:25:20 PM »
   Russia did finally approve a UN resolution calling for an independent investigation 

Is it an Obama investigation where the lead investigator would be a Russian?
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Offline Oceander

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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2014, 03:29:59 PM »
Is it an Obama investigation where the lead investigator would be a Russian?

The lead investigator will probably be a Syrian.

Offline rangerrebew

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« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2014, 03:36:50 PM »
The lead investigator will probably be a Syrian.

Oooh, that would be even better! :whistle:
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Offline GourmetDan

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« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2014, 03:44:14 PM »
Is it an Obama investigation where the lead investigator would be a Russian?

My money is on a Ukrainian...    :silly:


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Offline wolfcreek

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« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2014, 03:47:53 PM »
I've heard many of the 'separatists' are ex-Ukrainian military who used similar weapons systems in the past.

Here's the article about the possibility of Ukrainian escort jet:

http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7


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