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Online mystery-ak

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Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« on: July 21, 2014, 04:12:23 PM »
http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/21/kerry-not-wanted-in-middle-east/?print=1

Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
Posted By Ariel Cohen On 2:35 PM 07/21/2014

As tensions continue to escalate in the Middle East, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry is heading back to the region to continue pursuing a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas — but he may not be welcome this time around.

Former Israeli Ambassador Michael Oren believes that America’s presence isn’t welcome at all. During an interview with an Israel news network on Monday, Oren said that Kerry coming to the region is “to our chagrin.” Oren cited Kerry’s history of failed attempts at peace negotiations in the region, and strained U.S. relations with Egypt, as well as the Obama administration’s poor relationship with both Israel and Palestine.

Kerry left on Monday for Egypt, where he will continue to negotiate discussions of the continually failing cease-fire. The White House hopes to return to the November 2012 ceasefire agreement, and also emphasized the need to protect civilian lives, both in Gaza and in Israel.

Kerry spent nine months pursuing peace talks between Israel and Palestine from 2013 to 2014, but abandoned the effort recently after each attempt proved to be futile. Since violence has taken off between the Israelis and the Palestinians in recent weeks, Egypt has attempted to broker two separate cease-fires. While Israel complied with each request, Hamas has refused to agree and has repeatedly ignored Egypt’s requests.

During an interview broadcast on “Fox News Sunday,” Kerry said that Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas militants. But Kerry was caught making an aside comment to an aide over the phone during a commercial break, sarcastically calling Israel’s Operation Protective Edge a “helluva pinpoint operation.”

Numerous networks and media outlets picked up on this comment and condemned America’s top diplomat for callously critiquing the Israeli operation. (VIDEO: ’Morning Joe’ Doesn’t Believe Kerry’s Open Mic Criticism Of Israel Was An Accident)

According to Oren, Kerry’s behavior and remarks during his Sunday interview make it clear that Kerry was not invited to the region, and rather, just forced his way in. The State Department said that Kerry’s main concern in the region is minimizing “risk of further escalation, and the loss of more innocent life.”

President Obama reiterated that sentiment during a briefing from the White Hose lawn on Monday. The president expressed continued concerned about the violence, stating that both sides must continue working to “stop the deaths of innocent civilians.” The White House continues to look toward Kerry, the United Nations and Egypt to help broker a working cease-fire.


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Offline Relic

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2014, 04:21:49 PM »
They're crazy, not stupid.

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2014, 06:41:17 PM »
They're crazy, not stupid.

The Israelis never treated Condi Rice this way, because Condi and her Boss never treated Israel this way........

 :smokin:

Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2014, 07:04:20 PM »
In the Israeli vs Palestine conflict both sides are wrong and both sides have caused a lot of pain for everybody that wants nothing to do with war.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 07:04:45 PM by Dex4974 »
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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 08:58:30 PM »
 
Quote
But Kerry was caught making an aside comment to an aide over the phone during a commercial break, sarcastically calling Israel’s Operation Protective Edge a “helluva pinpoint operation.”

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

If Kerry was referring to Shajaiyeh, then he's got a legitimate point.  Total devastation.
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Online musiclady

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2014, 10:35:31 PM »
In the Israeli vs Palestine conflict both sides are wrong and both sides have caused a lot of pain for everybody that wants nothing to do with war.

If the Palestinians stopped lobbing rockets, there would be peace immediately.

If Israel stopped defending herself, she would be annihilated.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Online musiclady

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2014, 10:36:00 PM »
The Israelis never treated Condi Rice this way, because Condi and her Boss never treated Israel this way........

 :smokin:

Exactly right.

Therein lies the difference.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline Chieftain

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2014, 10:43:09 PM »
In the Israeli vs Palestine conflict both sides are wrong and both sides have caused a lot of pain for everybody that wants nothing to do with war.

Simple question for you:  Exactly what would you do??


Online DCPatriot

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2014, 11:15:42 PM »
Quote

During an interview broadcast on “Fox News Sunday,” Kerry said that Israel has the right to defend itself against Hamas militants. But Kerry was caught making an aside comment to an aide over the phone during a commercial break, sarcastically calling Israel’s Operation Protective Edge a “helluva pinpoint operation.”



Uh-huh.....if you think that wasn't a deliberate set-up, I have a bridge to sell.  :whistle:

....he put his cell on 'speaker' and laid it on the table in front of him. 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:16:35 PM by DCPatriot »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2014, 11:19:22 PM »
Simple question for you:  Exactly what would you do??

I don't know what the answer is, but more fighting is not it. Right now Palestine is wrong for being the aggressor, but this has been going back and forth for a long time. It's hard to point fingers when both sides have wronged the other. Israel vs Palestine is an ongoing problem, and it should be viewed as such. It doesn't make what they're doing okay, but I also want to point out that Palestinian weaponry is stone-aged compared to Israel, and the combat casualties do a good job of reflecting that. Israel loses almost nobody while lots of Palestinians die.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:27:21 PM by Dex4974 »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2014, 11:34:01 PM »
If the Palestinians stopped lobbing rockets, there would be peace immediately.

If Israel stopped defending herself, she would be annihilated.

It's more complicated than that. This is an ongoing issue, not an isolated incident. There are a lot of politics mixed with hatred that have been festering on both sides for decades, and aggression has gone both ways.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:36:28 PM by Dex4974 »
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2014, 11:36:02 PM »
It's more complicated than that. This is an ongoing issue, not an isolated incident. There are a lot of politics involved, and aggression has gone both ways.


yes aggression has gone both ways; however, the Israelis have acted in self-defense, the Palestinians not.  Therein lies a world of difference that removes most of the claimed complicated-ness.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 11:38:10 PM »

yes aggression has gone both ways; however, the Israelis have acted in self-defense, the Palestinians not.  Therein lies a world of difference that removes most of the claimed complicated-ness.

Do you believe there is a reason the Palestinians are upset? Surely they have a point of view and are not just lobbing rockets at peaceful people for no reason? Having reasons and even justifiable claims does not excuse violence, but perhaps it is something to consider when seeking a resolution.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:39:26 PM by Dex4974 »
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2014, 11:40:53 PM »
Do you believe there is a reason the Palestinians are upset? Surely they have a point of view and are not just lobbing rockets at peaceful people for no reason? Having reasons and even justifiable claims does not excuse violence, but surely it is something to consider.


I'm going to let you wander down the primrose path a while before I start unpacking your statements.  Please do go on.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 11:44:36 PM »

I'm going to let you wander down the primrose path a while before I start unpacking your statements.  Please do go on.

I asked you a question. Do the Palestinians have a point of view here, or are they just waging war for no reason? I'm not saying they're right necessarily, but if resolution is actually something we are seeking then it will be important to understand how they feel.
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Offline Carling

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 11:45:13 PM »

I'm going to let you wander down the primrose path a while before I start unpacking your statements.  Please do go on.

This will be fun.   :dx1:

I may chime in as well.  Dex, let's hear/read your reasoning behind this quote.

Quote
Do you believe there is a reason the Palestinians are upset? Surely they have a point of view and are not just lobbing rockets at peaceful people for no reason? Having reasons and even justifiable claims does not excuse violence, but surely it is something to consider.
   :shrug:

« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:46:42 PM by Carling »
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Offline Carling

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2014, 11:49:27 PM »
Oh, just read that again, Dex.  Yes, there is a simple reason why Palestinians are upset at Irsrael.  Many of the Palestinians are raised to hate Zionists, and would hate them even if Israel ceded all of the Gaza strip to Hamas or whoever is running Lebanon these days. 
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2014, 11:49:56 PM »
I asked you a question. Do the Palestinians have a point of view here, or are they just waging war for no reason? I'm not saying they're right necessarily, but if resolution is actually something we are seeking then it will be important to understand how they feel.

You're asking leading questions and I'm not about to play that game.  Yes, or no, have you stopped beating your wife?


Since you do believe these claims, do please set them out so that we have something concrete to discuss.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:50:41 PM by Oceander »

Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2014, 11:51:57 PM »
This will be fun.   :dx1:

I may chime in as well.  Dex, let's hear/read your reasoning behind this quote.
   :shrug:

I am of the belief that other than rare psychopaths there are no inherently bad people. Some people are off kilter, ignorant, whatever, but the vast majority of them have good intentions for the most part and just want to live life. Using my line of reasoning I believe that the Palestinians must feel justified in this somehow, especially if it is worth the severe casualties on their end. Why do they feel justified? Why are they doing it? These are important questions if we are going to find an answer.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2014, 11:53:40 PM »
I am of the belief that other than rare psychopaths there are no inherently bad people. Some people are off kilter, ignorant, whatever, but the vast majority of them have good intentions for the most part and just want to live life. Using my line of reasoning I believe that the Palestinians must feel justified in this somehow, especially if it is worth the severe casualties on their end. Why do they feel justified? Why are they doing it? These are important questions if we are going to find an answer.

You're waving around empty generalities.  Since you believe that the vast majority of Palestinians - i.e., the ones who are lobbing rockets - are acting in good faith on valid grievances, then it is up to you to put some meat on that abstract skeleton and set out what those grievances are.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2014, 11:54:04 PM »
Many of the Palestinians are raised to hate Zionists

Why were they raised that way? What started and then continued to fester that hate? Did Israel do something to become hated, or are the Palestinians just hateful people? Is it completely unfounded? Does the burden of guilt solely rest on the Palestinians?
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2014, 11:55:24 PM »
You're waving around empty generalities.  Since you believe that the vast majority of Palestinians - i.e., the ones who are lobbing rockets - are acting in good faith on valid grievances, then it is up to you to put some meat on that abstract skeleton and set out what those grievances are.

I actually said that no grievance justified violence. I also don't secretly think Palestine is right and Israel is wrong. I legitimately believe both sides are wrong. The implication I made was that Palestine has been wronged too, and they have their own points of view about all of this. They're not evil people; there is obviously a misunderstanding at the root of all of this that needs to be worked out. If we actually care about conflict resolution we will have to understand their viewpoint and work to create peace. 
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:57:36 PM by Dex4974 »
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2014, 12:00:03 AM »
Why were they raised that way? What started and then continued to fester that hate? Did Israel do something to become hated, or are the Palestinians just hateful people? Is it completely unfounded? Does the burden of guilt solely rest on the Palestinians?

What did Israel do?  Israel has the temerity to exist.  That is the well-spring of the hatred of those who lead the Palestinians and who teach their children to hate.  Have you not paid any attention to their founding documents?  To their speeches?  Those who are firing the rockets hate Israel because it exists, and their goal is to wipe Israel out.  The rest of the Palestinians not only do nothing against those who - on your account - are staining their good name, they in fact voted them into office.  Since Israel faces an existential threat emanating from Palestinians - those whom all Palestinians have allowed to speak for them - Israel has no choice but to go after those who would destroy it.  Palestinians as such do not face a similar existential threat:  if they stopped supporting those who wish to exterminate Israel and all Jews, Israel would have no cause to continue to attack and would in fact cease its military activities.  And with some modicum of time during which the bona fides of the Palestinians were proved out, many of the other onerous restrictions imposed by Israel would also be lifted.

Offline Dexter

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2014, 12:06:41 AM »
What did Israel do?  Israel has the temerity to exist.  That is the well-spring of the hatred of those who lead the Palestinians and who teach their children to hate.  Have you not paid any attention to their founding documents?  To their speeches?  Those who are firing the rockets hate Israel because it exists, and their goal is to wipe Israel out.  The rest of the Palestinians not only do nothing against those who - on your account - are staining their good name, they in fact voted them into office.  Since Israel faces an existential threat emanating from Palestinians - those whom all Palestinians have allowed to speak for them - Israel has no choice but to go after those who would destroy it.  Palestinians as such do not face a similar existential threat:  if they stopped supporting those who wish to exterminate Israel and all Jews, Israel would have no cause to continue to attack and would in fact cease its military activities.  And with some modicum of time during which the bona fides of the Palestinians were proved out, many of the other onerous restrictions imposed by Israel would also be lifted.

Palestine has shown that for one reason or another it is not content with the way things work over there. I don't care who started it or who could end it at this point. The thing that matters is that it is not ending. What is the solution? That was the question I didn't have the answer to originally. To find the solution we need to understand Palestine and get to the heart of the issue, unless the plan is to just blow everybody up until nobody is left to dislike Israel. I'm sorry, but I just don't accept that all of the 4 million or so people in Palestine are rage drunk psychopaths that seek the annihilation of Israel for no other reason than the fact that they exist.   
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Kerry Not Wanted In Middle East
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2014, 12:12:01 AM »
I actually said that no grievance justified violence. I also don't secretly think Palestine is right and Israel is wrong. I legitimately believe both sides are wrong. The implication I made was that Palestine has been wronged too, and they have their own points of view about all of this. They're not evil people; there is obviously a misunderstanding at the root of all of this that needs to be worked out. If we actually care about conflict resolution we will have to understand their viewpoint and work to create peace. 


Then you're simply wrong on several points.  Also, what you subjectively believe is irrelevant; what matters is what the facts tend to support.  An existential threat justifies violence in self-defense.  Martyrdom is what used to be called supererogatory, an act, good in itself, that goes beyond what morality (or God) requires.

If by "both sides are wrong" you mean essentially just that "no side is without fault" then yes, that's quite true, but it's also irrelevant because it adds nothing to the discussion - the human being who is without fault is, to say the least, rarer than hen's teeth (per some, there has been but one such person in all of human history).

However, if by "both sides are wrong" you mean to say that both have engaged in substantial, unjustified, acts the purpose of which was to foment violence, then you're wrong.  The violence is, and always has been, fomented by those who hate Israel and wish to see Israel and all Jews wiped from the face of the Earth.  Those whom Palestinians have anointed as their leaders have always held, and nursed, this hatred.  But for this hatred, the issues of refugee camps and displaced persons would have been settled a long, long time ago, most likely no later than the mid 1950s.  However, the hatred of Israel outweighed the concern for the well-being of the average Palestinian and so here we are, more than 60 years after Israel was founded, with Palestinians allowing themselves to be used as tools, as pawns, as cannon-fodder, by those amongst them, including their leaders, who hate Israel and wish to see it eradicated.

The "misunderstanding" that underlies the entire saga is this:  Israel believes it has the right to exist and that Jews have the right to live in peace; the Palestinians, as they have spoken through the leaders they've chosen, do not.


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