Author Topic: Army to replace 9mm pistol with more reliable gun packing better 'knock down’ power  (Read 473 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/07/12/army-to-replace-mm-pistol-with-more-reliable-gun-packing-better-knock-down/?intcmp=latestnews

Army to replace 9mm pistol with more reliable gun packing better 'knock down’ power
Joseph Weber

By Joseph Weber
Published July 12, 2014
FoxNews.com

The Army wants to retire its supply of 9mm handguns and replace it with a more accurate and user-friendly model that also will provide soldiers with more “knock-down” power.

Army officials say their inventory of more than 200,000 semi-automatic Beretta M9 and Sig Sauer M11 pistols has become outdated, worn out and needs to be replaced with an updated model that also offers more reliability and durability.

They also are considering new ammunition, which has sparked considerable debate among military and civilian weapons experts, too.

“Advancements in firearms have taken place since the M9 was adopted nearly 30 years ago, and it is our intent to take advantage of these advancements,” a military spokesperson told FoxNews.com on Friday. “The Army is seeking to replace the M9 and M11 pistols with a handgun that is more accurate, ergonomic, reliable and durable than the current pistol.”

Officials seem opposed to an update version of the Beretta M9, despite the company offering to make changes.

"We have submitted numerous changes or product improvements that really address a lot of the shortcomings that are either perceived or real," Beretta development manager Gabe Bailey recently told Military.com.

The Army has been considering a change for several years and on July 29 will hold a so-called “industry day” to brief gun manufacturers about the competition requirements for a winning proposal.

The Defense Department will reportedly buy more than 400,000 new pistols if and when officials agree on a new model.

Beyond the 9mm’s durability issues, which Army officials says are costing them too much in repairs, soldiers also say the pistol needs a more ergonomic grip, its safety device too often locks inadvertently and its open-slide bullet chamber allows in too much dirty, which results in jamming.

Still, the other big issue appears to be about the caliber of the new ammunition, considering most experts argue a person must be hit with several 9 mm rounds to be killed.

“We are not dictating a caliber during the competition,” the spokesperson said. “A vendor may submit multiple calibers of ammunition. However, the ammunition must exceed the performance of the current M882 9mm round.”

Among those likely to be considered in the Modular Handgun System competition are the .40 and .45 caliber rounds.

The argument against the .40 caliber round is that its heavier weight and stronger recoil causes excessive wear on a 9 mm pistol.

There have been no reports on how much the new weapons will cost, amid budget concerns. However, in September 2012, Beretta received a 5-year, $64 million firm-fixed-price contract for up to 100,000 of its M9 9mm pistols, according to Defense Industry Daily.

Following industry day, the Army will release a draft Request for Proposal, which seeks input from manufacturers.

The Army will then consider the manufacturers’ comments and modify the request, if necessary. It will then hold a final industry day before issuing a final proposal before the end of the year.

The next phase will essentially be a tryout and elimination process, which officials say will be based on technical results and will rely “heavily” on soldier feedback.

“One of the primary requirements for this weapon system is to provide the soldier with increased terminal performance,” the spokesperson said. “Feedback from soldiers in the field is that they want increased ‘knock-down power.’ And the MHS program will evaluate commercially available weapons that meet that requirement.”

 

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Offline PzLdr

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Admit the mistake, and bring back the 1911A1. If you want to jazz it up, get a Para-Ordnance DAO model.
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Offline Chieftain

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Admit the mistake, and bring back the 1911A1. If you want to jazz it up, get a Para-Ordnance DAO model.


Exactly right.  The .45 was developed as a military sidearm because you could shoot an attacker with that dinky issue .38 and they would keep on coming.  Hit an attacker in the leg with a .45 and the leg comes off...



 :beer:

Online Lando Lincoln

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I'm not military, but I grew up with a rifle in my hand starting with a .22 in my crib.  Some years ago, I started shooting handguns.  It took me about a nanosecond to discern the difference between a 9mm and a .45.  In a life or death situation, make it the .45.

That said, I personally have an affinity for the. 357 Mag.  I like wheel-guns a lot.





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Offline massadvj

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A 9mm hollow point will do as much damage as a 45 caliber but it doesn't have the range.  It doesn't much matter when our soldiers are told to stand down.  What weapon they have doesn't much matter if they aren't allowed to use it.

I would not be surprised if our current policy is to use 9mm ourselves and give 45 caliber ammo to our enemy.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 11:06:57 AM by massadvj »
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Online andy58-in-nh

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A 9mm hollow point will do as much damage as a 45 caliber but it doesn't have the range.  It doesn't much matter when our soldiers are told to stand down.  What weapon they have doesn't much matter if they aren't allowed to use it.

I would not be surprised if our current policy is to use 9mm ourselves and give 45 caliber ammo to our enemy.

I have carry pistols of both calibers (9mm Springfield XD/15 rounds, and .45 Taurus PT-145/10 rounds) and feel reliably safe depending on either one.

On the other hand, I can (and do) use specialty hollow-point personal defense ammunition, whereas our servicemen are limited to FMJ/ball ammo by international law.

You'll get endless arguments on the subject, especially pertaining to muzzle energy, energy transfer and wound channel size, etc., to which I will not add. The bottom line is that any reliable combination of firearm, ammunition and especially training will suffice.
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Online alicewonders

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A 9mm hollow point will do as much damage as a 45 caliber but it doesn't have the range.  It doesn't much matter when our soldiers are told to stand down.  What weapon they have doesn't much matter if they aren't allowed to use it.

I would not be surprised if our current policy is to use 9mm ourselves and give 45 caliber ammo to our enemy.

I carry a 9mm because, as a woman, a bigger caliber is a bit much for me in terms of recoil.  For my needs - stopping someone that means me harm - it's fine.  It's all in where you hit them, and I'm a pretty good shot - I beat my husband and brother on the shooting range.  In a military situation, I'm sure it's different.  I'm like you Massad - with our government, my mind always goes to ulterior motives. 
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Offline massadvj

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I carry a 9mm because, as a woman, a bigger caliber is a bit much for me in terms of recoil.  For my needs - stopping someone that means me harm - it's fine.  It's all in where you hit them, and I'm a pretty good shot - I beat my husband and brother on the shooting range.  In a military situation, I'm sure it's different.  I'm like you Massad - with our government, my mind always goes to ulterior motives.

I have been cursed with small, weak hands and I agree with you.  I use a Ruger SR9 9mm semi and it is very suited to my needs.
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Online 240B

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Exactly right.  The .45 was developed as a military sidearm because you could shoot an attacker with that dinky issue .38 and they would keep on coming.  Hit an attacker in the leg with a .45 and the leg comes off...



 :beer:

 
The word 'assassin' is derived from 'hashishan'. That is, the Arabs would get all messed up before the go into combat. So if you shoot them with the standard high velocity/low caliber rounds, all you are doing is punching a hole in him, and he will still keep coming.
 
The .45 was developed for 'knock down'. The idea being that if you get the guy on the ground, he will not get back up. This was before hollow points. But anyway, today, you cannot use a hollow point in combat under U.N. guidelines.
 
But yes, you shoot a hole in a guy's leg and you're going to piss him off but he will still keep coming. You take the leg right off, then you have his attention. That was the idea.
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Online alicewonders

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I have been cursed with small, weak hands and I agree with you.  I use a Ruger SR9 9mm semi and it is very suited to my needs.

I carry a Bersa Ultra Compact and it fits my hands perfectly and I shoot very well with it.  I do have special 9mm bullets in it that are supposed to penetrate heavy and leather clothing better. 
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Concealed, I'd rather not say - let us call it small, compact and 9mm. Actually a bit too small, I have big hands, and I get brass burns once in a while because of the ridiculous costs of left handed variants.

Work - Sig P556 and a pair of 12 gauge street sweepers. The Sig is a fun little pistol to play with if you are over 6 foot tall.
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Offline Chieftain

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The word 'assassin' is derived from 'hashishan'. That is, the Arabs would get all messed up before the go into combat. So if you shoot them with the standard high velocity/low caliber rounds, all you are doing is punching a hole in him, and he will still keep coming.
 
The .45 was developed for 'knock down'. The idea being that if you get the guy on the ground, he will not get back up. This was before hollow points. But anyway, today, you cannot use a hollow point in combat under U.N. guidelines.
 
But yes, you shoot a hole in a guy's leg and you're going to piss him off but he will still keep coming. You take the leg right off, then you have his attention. That was the idea.

A lot of what you just said applied to the Japanese too.  If they were all whipped up and charging, a .38 service revolver wouldn't even slow 'em down....but that .45 ACP slug would put 'em on the ground and keep 'em there...the ballistic shockwave the round ball generates in a body on impact is fearsome and destructive.  It's less than half an inch in diameter going in....



 :beer:

Offline PzLdr

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The word 'assassin' is derived from 'hashishan'. That is, the Arabs would get all messed up before the go into combat. So if you shoot them with the standard high velocity/low caliber rounds, all you are doing is punching a hole in him, and he will still keep coming.
 
The .45 was developed for 'knock down'. The idea being that if you get the guy on the ground, he will not get back up. This was before hollow points. But anyway, today, you cannot use a hollow point in combat under U.N. guidelines.
 
But yes, you shoot a hole in a guy's leg and you're going to piss him off but he will still keep coming. You take the leg right off, then you have his attention. That was the idea.

The Assassins were an offshoot of Shia Islam, and with the Zealots of Judea fame, were history's first suicide knifers. They were extirpated by Hulegu Quan on his way to put paid to the Abbasid Caliphate in Baghdad in 1256.

The 1911 and 1911A1 were developed by the Army as a result of the Philippine Insurrection. The .38 revolver then in issue was incapable of putting down for the count Moro tribesmen [yet another bunch of jolly Muslims]. After first resorting to old Colt Cavalry revolvers, the Army bought the John moses Browning semi-auto pistols marketed by Colt. We carried them from there through 'Nam.
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