Author Topic: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!  (Read 270 times)

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Online rangerrebew

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Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« on: June 26, 2014, 07:25:12 AM »
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 09:34:49 AM »
From the wikipedia article on stingrays:

Quote
A stingray is a controversial electronic surveillance device for remotely capturing data from mobile telephones.  It is designed to mimic a cell tower so all the mobile phones in the area communicate with it and provide information, including location data.  This can be done even when the phone is not being used to make a call.

Offline GourmetDan

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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 09:41:34 AM »

Police have been lying to judges and defendants for years and it's just now become a problem?


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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2014, 09:51:22 AM »
Police have been lying to judges and defendants for years and it's just now become a problem?




good point

Online rangerrebew

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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2014, 04:59:14 PM »
Police have been lying to judges and defendants for years and it's just now become a problem?

I suspect that are also a good many judges who ignore the truth to rule in favor of the cause de jour.
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #6 on: June 26, 2014, 05:52:16 PM »
I suspect that are also a good many judges who ignore the truth to rule in favor of the cause de jour.

at the state trial level this is God's own truth (regrettably); although it's not always a cause de jour, frequently it's some personal bias or prejudice of the judge which, in criminal cases, most often tends to be a pro-police, anti-accused, bias.

Offline EC

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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #7 on: June 26, 2014, 05:59:00 PM »
Can you expand on that please?

It's always interesting to take a peek under the hood of systems and institutions.
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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #8 on: June 26, 2014, 06:00:45 PM »
Can you expand on that please?

It's always interesting to take a peek under the hood of systems and institutions.

expand on what?

Offline EC

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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #9 on: June 26, 2014, 06:12:11 PM »
Dammit - I missed the quote again!  :shrug:

Quote
frequently it's some personal bias or prejudice of the judge which, in criminal cases, most often tends to be a pro-police, anti-accused, bias.

I don't doubt it's the case, just curious as to your more personal observations of that happening (and why) since you work within the system.
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Re: Government Tells Police to Lie to Judges and Defendants!
« Reply #10 on: June 26, 2014, 06:47:36 PM »
Dammit - I missed the quote again!  :shrug:

I don't doubt it's the case, just curious as to your more personal observations of that happening (and why) since you work within the system.

simple situation that crops up in misdemeanor criminal cases all the time in NY:  the accused files her omnibus motion which includes a request that the court dismiss the charges because the prosecutor blew the speedy trial time limit - for these purposes assume that it's a rock-solid valid argument.  the arraignment/pretrial judge doesn't read the motion and summarily denies it, a decision that is blatantly wrong under the controlling statute and all of the case law.  the accused now has two choices, both unpalatable:

(1) accept the prosecution's plea offer of a plea to a lesser charge (NY prosecutors like to use disorderly conduct, which is a "violation" and thus not a "crime" under the NY Penal Law), but forfeit the right to appeal the judge's denial of the motion, or

(2) go through the time, expense, stress, risk, and publicity of a trial just so that, if she is convicted, she can get to an appellate court to have the pretrial/arraignment judge's blatantly wrong decision reversed and her conviction reversed.  Keep in mind that if she wins, which is great, she's still gone through all of the rigors, has probably almost bankrupted herself, and there is probably a publicly available account of the charges and the trial even though the entire case is automatically sealed because she was acquitted.  It's even worse if she's convicted and then wins on appeal as not only will she be financially and emotionally broken, the publicly available information - e.g., a blurb in some local newspaper or a comment on the case on some blog - will contain the fact of the conviction, which will always haunt her so long as someone can find that information even though, again, the case has been sealed.

NY misdemeanor pretrial/arraignment judges do that all the time; they are often retired cops or have other law enforcement experience and frequently tend to be anti-accused - along the lines of "if you weren't guilty the police wouldn't have arrested you" - and so they tend to rule against the accused even when doing so is flagrantly wrong.

The same thing happens at trial with, for example, rulings on evidentiary issues that are clearly wrong but which will never be corrected unless the accused has the intestinal fortitude to get to an appellate court to have the ruling reversed.

And this all assumes the accused has the financial wherewithal to pay for an attorney to do the case through to an appeals court.  If the accused is a person of limited means, they will almost never get that opportunity in a misdemeanor case and even in many felony cases - pro bono sounds kewl but it's really only the "sexy" cases that get a lot of useful pro bono work; generally, an accused person of limited means is either Sh*t Out of Luck because they have just too much money to get a public defender appointed, or they get an overworked, overstressed public defender appointed who will do a workmanly job on the case but is not going to be there to take on an appeal.


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