FGM in Sweden: 28 Immigrant Girls in One Class Severely Cut

[musiclady]

There isn't a whit of difference.  go read some history.  It is precisely culture that fixed the Church.

I think it depends on the bias of who writes your history, Oceander.

Find me a single example of Christians killing anyone who didn't believe what they did in the first 3 centuries of Christianity BEFORE it unfortunately, became intertwined with politics.

Better yet, read the Book of Acts in the New Testament, to find out who and what the Church is and is supposed to be, and what it was before it became corrupted by the culture you claim fixed it.

You've got it backwards, my friend.

Christ did not teach ANY of the things that 'historians' blame on Christianity.

It was politics and corruption.

And culture most definitely did NOT 'fix' it.

[Dexter]

I think it depends on the bias of who writes your history, Oceander.

Find me a single example of Christians killing anyone who didn't believe what they did in the first 3 centuries of Christianity BEFORE it unfortunately, became intertwined with politics.

Better yet, read the Book of Acts in the New Testament, to find out who and what the Church is and is supposed to be, and what it was before it became corrupted by the culture you claim fixed it.

You've got it backwards, my friend.

Christ did not teach ANY of the things that 'historians' blame on Christianity.

It was politics and corruption.

And culture most definitely did NOT 'fix' it.

Christianity was always intertwined with politics. The same can be said about Islam.

[musiclady]

Have you ever read the Qur'an?

Large pieces of it.

What's the point?

From the beginning is Islam, people who read and believed the Quran thought that Allah wanted them to kill infidels.

It's in there.

And it's NOT in the Gospels, the words of Jesus, the book of Acts, the Epistles, or anything else for us to kill Muslims, or abuse Native Americans, or enslave blacks.

Those are corruptions of the word of God based on human sin and political corruption.

Again........from the BEGINNING of Islam, there has been violence.

Not so, Christianity.  The violence was against the early Christians.

And it was brutal.

[musiclady]

Christianity was always intertwined with politics. The same can be said about Islam.

No.  Actually it wasn't.

You need to do some more homework, Dex.

Until Constantine, the government had nothing to do with Christianity.

Christians were known by their love for others.  Christians ministered to others' needs.  Christians loved those who were outside the faith.  And Christians were persecuted for their faith.

Again.  You have been misled.

[Dexter]

No.  Actually it wasn't.

You need to do some more homework, Dex.

Until Constantine, the government had nothing to do with Christianity.

Christians were known by their love for others.  Christians ministered to others' needs.  Christians loved those who were outside the faith.  And Christians were persecuted for their faith.

Again.  You have been misled.

I didn't necessarily mean that the government oversaw Christianity, just that it was involved in the politics of the era. Christ himself was crucified for political reasons.

[musiclady]

I didn't necessarily mean that the government oversaw Christianity, just that it was involved in the politics of the era. Christ himself was crucified for political reasons.

You've self-admitted here that the politics was from the enemies of Jesus, and not Jesus, Himself.

His Kingdom was NOT of this world.  It was apolitical.  It was spiritual.

And His followers were most definitely NOT governed by politics.

Please read the Book of Acts in the New Testament, and the Gospels for the truth on the subject.

Don't rely on your public school education for the 'facts' you believe.

[mountaineer]

Exactly, unchecked Christianity caused just as much horror as any religion ever will.

"Unchecked Christianity"?
Wow. 

[alicewonders]

"Unchecked Christianity"?
Wow. 

Yeah, we really need to keep a check on that Golden Rule and turning the other cheek stuff. 

[musiclady]

Yeah, we really need to keep a check on that Golden Rule and turning the other cheek stuff.

Yeah...........not to mention, love your neighbor as yourself, love others as Christ has loved you (enough to die for you), love your enemies, be kind to those who persecute you, feed the poor, clothe the naked, help the widows and orphans, go into all the world to share God's love......

We need to keep all that awful Christianity at bay so the culture can make the world a better place.       

[Oceander]

Yeah........but they, themselves, don't know what their own religion teaches.  (There has been a militant sect of Islam from the beginning...........those who follow what Mohammed actually said).

There is nothing "Christian" in any of the hatred of Westboro Baptist Church, and it doesn't take a scholar to find it out.

And yet, there is plenty of material in the Scriptures and other accepted writings that can quite easily be used to justify as "Christian" the hatred of Westboro Baptist Church.  How do you think the Church got from the Sermon on the Mount to the Crusades?  Not by simply ignoring Scripture but - just as many extremist muslim militants do - picking and choosing what you want and ignoring the inconvenient.

And the Christian Crusades are quite a pretty picture of a religious genocide that dwarfs what muslim extremists have managed to accomplish so far.


That's the funny thing about compelling religions:  they're complicated, sometimes internally contradictory, and can be used to justify all manner of things by selective reading.

[Oceander]

Large pieces of it.

What's the point?

From the beginning is Islam, people who read and believed the Quran thought that Allah wanted them to kill infidels.

It's in there.

And it's NOT in the Gospels, the words of Jesus, the book of Acts, the Epistles, or anything else for us to kill Muslims, or abuse Native Americans, or enslave blacks.

Those are corruptions of the word of God based on human sin and political corruption.

Again........from the BEGINNING of Islam, there has been violence.

Not so, Christianity.  The violence was against the early Christians.

And it was brutal.

The Crusades - which were based on the Church's exegesis of Scripture - were orders of magnitude worse:  http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#Crusades

[musiclady]

The Crusades - which were based on the Church's exegesis of Scripture - were orders of magnitude worse:  http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#Crusades

By the time the Crusades occurred, the Church was already political, intertwined with extra-Scriptural opinions that weren't in sync with the behavior and teachings of Jesus, OR the early Church.

Again.........it was mixing Christianity with politics that screwed it up royally.

NEVER the teaching of Jesus, nor the behavior of the early Church.

While the Crusades present a neat and convenient little illustration for those who deny Christ, and His redemptive work, they cannot be used as an accurate example of Christ's teachings, nor the example of the Apostles, nor first (and second and third) century Christians.

The problem with human beings is sin.  The problem with politics is corruption because of sin.

In all the negative examples Christ-deniers use to argue against the truth of His word and example, there is a combination of both the sins of the people involved, and political corruption.

That is true of the Inquisition, the Conquistadors, empire-building, abuse of other cultures.

You can come up with any example you want of the corruption of Christianity, Oceander, but it isn't an effective argument against Christianity itself.  Only of human failure.

I repeat.........culture did not improve Christianity.  Culture corrupts Christianity.

[musiclady]

And yet, there is plenty of material in the Scriptures and other accepted writings that can quite easily be used to justify as "Christian" the hatred of Westboro Baptist Church.  How do you think the Church got from the Sermon on the Mount to the Crusades?  Not by simply ignoring Scripture but - just as many extremist muslim militants do - picking and choosing what you want and ignoring the inconvenient.

And the Christian Crusades are quite a pretty picture of a religious genocide that dwarfs what muslim extremists have managed to accomplish so far.


That's the funny thing about compelling religions:  they're complicated, sometimes internally contradictory, and can be used to justify all manner of things by selective reading.

Once again, Westboro Baptist Church and the Crusades are convenient arguments, but ineffective, because they are the product of corruption and human sin.  As you say, the Church went from the Sermon on the Mount to the Crusades, so you, yourself understand at some level that it is a corruption of Christ's teachings, and not Christianity in its true form (Christ's teachings) that is the problem.

One correction, however.....  There is nothing "contradictory" in the Christian Scriptures.  Only in the understanding of what they mean, and our frail, finite human minds.

Islam, on the other hand, is filled with contradictions, thus leading to the two warring factions that have existed since the corrupt and sinful Mohammed lived and died on this earth.

[musiclady]

And yet, there is plenty of material in the Scriptures and other accepted writings that can quite easily be used to justify as "Christian" the hatred of Westboro Baptist Church.  How do you think the Church got from the Sermon on the Mount to the Crusades?  Not by simply ignoring Scripture but - just as many extremist muslim militants do - picking and choosing what you want and ignoring the inconvenient.

And the Christian Crusades are quite a pretty picture of a religious genocide that dwarfs what muslim extremists have managed to accomplish so far.


That's the funny thing about compelling religions:  they're complicated, sometimes internally contradictory, and can be used to justify all manner of things by selective reading.

I've got to make one more point here.

The idea that anything.......ANYTHING........like "God hates bleep" can be found in Scripture other than in abject distortion, is absurd.

I'm afraid you are one of those pro-gay folks who (deliberately?) misinterpret the clear Scriptural teaching that homosexuality is sin (along with a whole host of others that we ALL are guilty of) and twist it into, anyone who believes in what Scripture clearly teaches hate homosexuals......that we are "homophobes."

It was on another thread that you were close to accusing Christians of being like the Taliban, and that is so far from the truth, and rational thought that it surprised me that you were going there.

Westboro Baptist Church is not even remotely Christian, and Christians are not even remotely like radical, violent Islamists.

[musiclady]

Oh, cool!  TBR bleeped my quote from Westboro "Baptist" Asylum!

I LIKE it!   

[truth_seeker]

The Southern Baptist Church was very mainstream when it supported slavery.

The Roman Catholic Church was very mainstream, when it put Jews on the rack during the Spanish (and other) Inquisition.

The Puritan Church in New England was very mainstream when it burned witches at the stake, like in
Europe too.

The Roman Catholic Church was very mainstream when it condoned human slavery trade.

Rev. Ted Haggard, Rev. Jim Bakker, Rev. Jim Swaggart were very mainstream when their sexual scandals dazzled their television groupies.

No wonder many people say they are spiritual, but not religious.

[musiclady]

The Crusades - which were based on the Church's exegesis of Scripture - were orders of magnitude worse:  http://necrometrics.com/pre1700a.htm#Crusades

I'm curious.  What is the theological background of any of the authors quoted here?  Or Matthew White, the author of "Atrocities"?

Also, I noted in a quick look at the list of resources that the authors were all rationalists, and basically anti-Christians.

Do you have any objective sources for your information?

Just curious......

[musiclady]

The Southern Baptist Church was very mainstream when it supported slavery.

The Roman Catholic Church was very mainstream, when it put Jews on the rack during the Spanish (and other) Inquisition.

The Puritan Church in New England was very mainstream when it burned witches at the stake, like in
Europe too.

The Roman Catholic Church was very mainstream when it condoned human slavery trade.

Rev. Ted Haggard, Rev. Jim Bakker, Rev. Jim Swaggart were very mainstream when their sexual scandals dazzled their television groupies.

No wonder many people say they are spiritual, but not religious.

I know you pretty much hate Christians, ts, but I'll say this to you once again....

Christians, through the ages, have been sinners.  ALL the things you mention are the product of human sin, combined with political and economic forces.

You can list whatever you like as your standard "Christians are evil" meme, but it doesn't change the fact that each one of the examples you list is an aberration of what Christ taught, and how the early Church lived.

As for your use of the word "mainstream".......I wonder why you ever would equate "mainstream" with righteousness and truth?

Christ said from the beginning that to be a Christian was to follow a narrow path.

"Mainstream" is the antithesis of righteousness.

It was William Wilberforce, who, through the power and leading of God in Christ, ended the slave trade, going against the British government and economic interests.  It was the Quakers in England and America who, through God, in Christ, fought for the abolition of slavery.  They were anything but "mainstream."  They were following Christ.

True Christianity, by its very nature, can never be "mainstream."

[truth_seeker]

I know you pretty much hate Christians, ts, but I'll say this to you once again....

I'll say this again. I don't hate anybody. I was raised that way as a Christian.

You, on the other hand, seem comfortable with accusing those who don't agree with you, of "hating."

A lot of what I see among so called "conservative" Christian circles is hatred.

http://theevangelists.blogspot.com/2011/04/hall-of-shame.html

[musiclady]

I'll say this again. I don't hate anybody. I was raised that way as a Christian.

You, on the other hand, seem comfortable with accusing those who don't agree with you, of "hating."

A lot of what I see among so called "conservative" Christian circles is hatred.

http://theevangelists.blogspot.com/2011/04/hall-of-shame.html

I'm sorry if I offended you, truth seeker, but I've seen nothing but disdain from you about Christians.  You SEEM to look at the entire history of Christianity as nothing but one offense after another, and refuse to acknowledge all the good that faithful Christians have done over the centuries (schools, hospitals, charities, etc., etc., etc.).

If you don't hate Christians, I apologize.  I only based that statement on what I've seen from you time after time after time.

There are plenty of people who disagree with me about many, many things, and I haven't ever used the word "hate" to describe their words.  That's what I've seen in your words, and your attitudes, and again, I deeply apologize if I've been wrong.

[truth_seeker]

I'm sorry if I offended you, truth seeker, but I've seen nothing but disdain from you about Christians.  You SEEM to look at the entire history of Christianity as nothing but one offense after another, and refuse to acknowledge all the good that faithful Christians have done over the centuries (schools, hospitals, charities, etc., etc., etc.).

If you don't hate Christians, I apologize.  I only based that statement on what I've seen from you time after time after time.

There are plenty of people who disagree with me about many, many things, and I haven't ever used the word "hate" to describe their words.  That's what I've seen in your words, and your attitudes, and again, I deeply apologize if I've been wrong.

You have said several times I hate Christians, but I don't. I am disappointed that they are so hypocritical and judgmental, and so quick to disavow the history.

I am a political conservative, but not a member of the religious right. I am disappointed that the religious right does not attract new voters, because of the self-righteous attitude. 

I do NOT like James Dobson, Ted Haggard, or Benny Hinn, or others who DO represent organized Christianity, no matter how much others disavow them.

But I don't hate them, or their gullible groupies.

[Oceander]

I've got to make one more point here.

The idea that anything.......ANYTHING........like "God hates bleep" can be found in Scripture other than in abject distortion, is absurd.

I'm afraid you are one of those pro-gay folks who (deliberately?) misinterpret the clear Scriptural teaching that homosexuality is sin (along with a whole host of others that we ALL are guilty of) and twist it into, anyone who believes in what Scripture clearly teaches hate homosexuals......that we are "homophobes."

It was on another thread that you were close to accusing Christians of being like the Taliban, and that is so far from the truth, and rational thought that it surprised me that you were going there.

Westboro Baptist Church is not even remotely Christian, and Christians are not even remotely like radical, violent Islamists.

/snicker

pro-gay?  Sorry, I'm pro individual rights which to me means:  keep your nose and your damned laws out of my business.  It also means respecting the will of the majority, even if I don't like it, unless and until that will steps beyond the very wide boundaries established by the Constitution.  So while I don't agree with the lengths to which the concept of faggot-marriage has been pushed, the fact of the matter is that in many places it is the will of the majority that the relationships of gay couples be recognized for civil law purposes.  So be it.  The State's recognition, and sanctioning, of gay couples' relationships doesn't do any affirmative harm to me even though I may not like it.

And I don't need to twist anything to prove you're a homophobe, I merely need to quote your own words back at you.

[musiclady]

You have said several times I hate Christians, but I don't. I am disappointed that they are so hypocritical and judgmental, and so quick to disavow the history.

I am a political conservative, but not a member of the religious right. I am disappointed that the religious right does not attract new voters, because of the self-righteous attitude. 

I do NOT like James Dobson, Ted Haggard, or Benny Hinn, or others who DO represent organized Christianity, no matter how much others disavow them.

But I don't hate them, or their gullible groupies.

I'm not fond of their groupies either.

And I abhor hypocrisy.

So I guess we're on the same page, then. 

[musiclady]

/snicker

pro-gay?  Sorry, I'm pro individual rights which to me means:  keep your nose and your damned laws out of my business.  It also means respecting the will of the majority, even if I don't like it, unless and until that will steps beyond the very wide boundaries established by the Constitution.  So while I don't agree with the lengths to which the concept of faggot-marriage has been pushed, the fact of the matter is that in many places it is the will of the majority that the relationships of gay couples be recognized for civil law purposes.  So be it.  The State's recognition, and sanctioning, of gay couples' relationships doesn't do any affirmative harm to me even though I may not like it.

And I don't need to twist anything to prove you're a homophobe, I merely need to quote your own words back at you.

/snicker back atcha.

I have stated that homosexual behavior is a sin, and that there is a militant homosexual agenda.

If that makes me, in your eyes, "homophobic," so be it.

But I would suggest an eye exam, because I am nothing of the sort.

Not.  Even.  Close.

[rangerrebew]

We should never forget islam is the "preferred" religion of Obama.  I wonder what he would have done if HIS daughters had to suffer through it?