Author Topic: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.  (Read 2375 times)

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Online mystery-ak

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The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« on: May 22, 2014, 01:31:49 PM »

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Online rangerrebew

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2014, 03:05:11 PM »
Charles De Gaulle, jackass that he was, predicted muslims would be the biggest problem we would face after WW 11.
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2014, 04:26:16 PM »
Charles De Gaulle, jackass that he was, predicted muslims would be the biggest problem we would face after WW 11.
Your point about muslims would be stronger, if you didn't introduce your negative assessment, which discredits De Gaulle.

Churchill held similar views.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.ďż˝  Abe Lincoln

Offline sinkspur

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2014, 04:43:46 PM »
Quote
In other words, Islam, the only religion which falls into the above mentioned category, cannot be treated the same as the other religions whose adherents simply wish to be left alone to worship in peace.

The problem is not the zealotry of Muslims (95% of whom are peaceful adherents who have nothing to do with the radicals), but the lack of faithfulness of Christians and Jews.

In other words, the answer is not to outlaw Islam, but to strengthen the practice of Christians and Jews.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2014, 05:34:28 PM »
The problem is not the zealotry of Muslims (95% of whom are peaceful adherents who have nothing to do with the radicals), but the lack of faithfulness of Christians and Jews.

In other words, the answer is not to outlaw Islam, but to strengthen the practice of Christians and Jews.

In my twisted, sordid mind, "peaceful adherent" translates into "passive-aggressive supporters" of Radicalism in Islam.

Offline sinkspur

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2014, 05:38:20 PM »
In my twisted, sordid mind, "peaceful adherent" translates into "passive-aggressive supporters" of Radicalism in Islam.

So does a "peaceful adherent" of Catholicism translate into "passive-agressive supporter" of abortion-clinic bombings?

I'm not really sure what you expect a Muslim guy who goes to Mosque, prays every day, and goes to work every day just like you and I to do about radical Islam. 

I'm far from a fan of Islam, but milquetoast Christians calling for second-class citizenship for Muslims is kinda funny.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2014, 05:59:14 PM »
So does a "peaceful adherent" of Catholicism translate into "passive-agressive supporter" of abortion-clinic bombings?

I'm not really sure what you expect a Muslim guy who goes to Mosque, prays every day, and goes to work every day just like you and I to do about radical Islam. 

I'm far from a fan of Islam, but milquetoast Christians calling for second-class citizenship for Muslims is kinda funny.

I don't believe that Muslims should have second-class citizenship. I think that we should not give Islam recognition as a religion until it comes into the 21st century.

Abortion clinic bombings...

One in 2011, the one before that in 2001.

Maybe if pro-lifers would manage more than one bomb a decade we would be in a better position to judge the id of devout Catholics.

Here is something that I hav discussed quite frequently with my best friend (you knew him in FR). He is a devout Catholic and staunch pro-lifer.

He argues that the pro-life movement application of the terms "murder" and "genocide" to abortion hurts their credibility.

If you were walking down a street and saw that a child was being murdered in an alley, you would stop at absolutely nothing to stop that from happening. I know that I would jump, and to the risk of my own life, I would intercede.

No pro-lifer, Catholic or not, will defend the act of doing whatever is necessary to stop an abortion from happening, even as they stand outside the clinics where it is happening.

That's a very odd paradox that approximates passive aggressive behavior.

Offline massadvj

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2014, 06:01:14 PM »
So does a "peaceful adherent" of Catholicism translate into "passive-agressive supporter" of abortion-clinic bombings?

I'm not really sure what you expect a Muslim guy who goes to Mosque, prays every day, and goes to work every day just like you and I to do about radical Islam. 

I'm far from a fan of Islam, but milquetoast Christians calling for second-class citizenship for Muslims is kinda funny.

I think a better comparison would be Protestants who hold the Amish in reverence because they see them as leading lives that are more authentic to the faith.  The jihadists are held in esteem by the moderates because they are living lives that are more consistent with the teachings of their faith.

When a Christian prays, he prays for the strength to forgive his enemies.  When a Muslim prays, he prays for the strength to defeat his enemies.  That is a major distinction between Muslims and most other religions, and it is one that cannot be ignored.  It explains why moderates in Islam usually do not speak out against jihad.

That said, I do not believe the activities of Muslims should be restricted in any way in the USA.  All people have inalienable rights, and should be held accountable based on their actions, not on their beliefs.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 06:02:56 PM by massadvj »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2014, 06:11:20 PM »
I think a better comparison would be Protestants who hold the Amish in reverence because they see them as leading lives that are more authentic to the faith.  The jihadists are held in esteem by the moderates because they are living lives that are more consistent with the teachings of their faith.

When a Christian prays, he prays for the strength to forgive his enemies.  When a Muslim prays, he prays for the strength to defeat his enemies.  That is a major distinction between Muslims and most other religions, and it is one that cannot be ignored.  It explains why moderates in Islam usually do not speak out against jihad.

That said, I do not believe the activities of Muslims should be restricted in any way in the USA.  All people have inalienable rights, and should be held accountable based on their actions, not on their beliefs.

The only problem that I have with that is that mosques are used as cover for actions meant to harm and kill US citizens.

It's that old "the Constitution isn't a suicide pact" thing.

Offline massadvj

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2014, 06:15:59 PM »
The only problem that I have with that is that mosques are used as cover for actions meant to harm and kill US citizens.

It's that old "the Constitution isn't a suicide pact" thing.

Conversely, the mosques are also used by our intelligence people to gather information and infiltrate the movement.  Based on the near absence of domestic terrorism since 2001, I'd say the latter use has been more efficacious than the former.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Online rangerrebew

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2014, 06:24:55 PM »
The problem is not the zealotry of Muslims (95% of whom are peaceful adherents who have nothing to do with the radicals), but the lack of faithfulness of Christians and Jews.

In other words, the answer is not to outlaw Islam, but to strengthen the practice of Christians and Jews.

Do you include in those zealots the muslim brotherhood which got its start being complicit with Hitler?
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2014, 10:36:23 PM »
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 10:38:08 PM by Oceander »

Offline massadvj

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2014, 10:43:10 PM »
Psalm 35:1-9
just the low fruit from the google vine.

Christians ain't pure as the driven snow, either.

This is why we have a NEW Testament in Christianity.  To most Christian sects, the Old Testament is revered, but the New Testament is definitive.  There is nothing that approaches the New Testament perspective in the Koran.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2014, 10:50:11 PM »
This is why we have a NEW Testament in Christianity.  To most Christian sects, the Old Testament is revered, but the New Testament is definitive.  There is nothing that approaches the New Testament perspective in the Koran.

So there are two Gods then?  The one from the Old Testament, and His distant cousin, twice removed, in the New Testament? 

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2014, 10:57:29 PM »

Offline massadvj

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2014, 11:02:25 PM »
So there are two Gods then?  The one from the Old Testament, and His distant cousin, twice removed, in the New Testament?

Being agnostic myself, I am the last person to explain Christianity.  But, I was raised in Catholic schools, so I am fairly familiar with the liturgy, so I'll give it a go.

As I understand it, God did not change but the original sin of man was washed away as a result of Christ's sacrifice.  The prayers of the Old Testament are prayers of people scorned by God.  The prayers of the New Testament are prayers of people forgiven by God.  They don't reflect a different God, but a different kind of man.  The New Testament man prays thus: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2014, 11:05:47 PM »
Being agnostic myself, I am the last person to explain Christianity.  But, I was raised in Catholic schools, so I am fairly familiar with the liturgy, so I'll give it a go.

As I understand it, God did not change but the original sin of man was washed away as a result of Christ's sacrifice.  The prayers of the Old Testament are prayers of people scorned by God.  The prayers of the New Testament are prayers of people forgiven by God.  They don't reflect a different God, but a different kind of man.  The New Testament man prays thus: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."

You got to love this.

We just had an agnostic and a pantheist explain the New Covenant to a _________________.

Oceander, want to fill that in?

Offline massadvj

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2014, 11:12:59 PM »

We just had an agnostic and a pantheist explain the New Covenant to  _________________.

an attorney!
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2014, 12:22:20 AM »
an attorney!

We may have bitten off more than we can chew.

Offline kevindavis

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2014, 11:56:58 AM »
The problem is not the zealotry of Muslims (95% of whom are peaceful adherents who have nothing to do with the radicals), but the lack of faithfulness of Christians and Jews.

In other words, the answer is not to outlaw Islam, but to strengthen the practice of Christians and Jews.


 :amen:
To Clear things up...

Mueller has been one of the most respected individuals on the planet over the last 20 years.

Mueller is a Republican

Mueller was appointed by Republicans

Mueller doesn't determine if someone is guilty, The Judge and Jury do!

Get it!!!!

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Offline Oceander

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2014, 05:04:57 PM »
You got to love this.

We just had an agnostic and a pantheist explain the New Covenant to a _________________.

Oceander, want to fill that in?

I'll fill it in if/when I get an explanation, as such.

Offline Oceander

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2014, 05:08:44 PM »
« Last Edit: May 23, 2014, 05:10:11 PM by Oceander »

Offline massadvj

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2014, 05:15:50 PM »
Changing the covenant does not change the essential nature of the covenanteer, and the new covenant does not appear to have foresworn the use of divine vengeance in the service of a believer, nor prohibited absolutely pleas and prayers for the exercise thereof.

Then again, I suppose that beating the merchants and money-changers in the entryway of the temple - because they were despoiling the Father's House - doesn't really count as doing violence against those who would defile the Truth; or does it?  Identify some divine attribute or thing being infringed upon, identify the infringers, and you have license to go after them.  Sounds suspiciously close to some of what the Koran supposedly licenses.

This is a gross misrepresentation of the New Testament, counselor.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline EC

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2014, 05:47:03 PM »
This is a gross misrepresentation of the New Testament, counselor.

I must admit, in all my reading of the Bible I have never seen a passage that forbade our Savior to have a bit of a temper on him at times. Rather the opposite, in fact. He is the word made flesh - that includes the various down sides.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: The Islamic takeover of the US is gaining ground.
« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2014, 06:02:34 PM »
Changing the covenant does not change the essential nature of the covenanteer, and the new covenant does not appear to have foresworn the use of divine vengeance in the service of a believer, nor prohibited absolutely pleas and prayers for the exercise thereof.

Then again, I suppose that beating the merchants and money-changers in the entryway of the temple - because they were despoiling the Father's House - doesn't really count as doing violence against those who would defile the Truth; or does it?  Identify some divine attribute or thing being infringed upon, identify the infringers, and you have license to go after them.  Sounds suspiciously close to some of what the Koran supposedly licenses.

You're not in a courtroom Oceander 



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