Author Topic: 'Did you enjoy having drinks on top of my brother's grave?' Sister of WTC victim lashes out at 9/11 Memorial cocktail party guests  (Read 3595 times)

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Offline sinkspur

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There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field.  I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.

We'll just agree to disagree.  I don't believe 9/11, horrible as it was, is in any way comparable to the methodical attempt to eliminate an entire nationality of people.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 12:22:52 PM by sinkspur »
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online musiclady

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The ghosts of Katyn Forest and those of the Twin Towers may never be avenged, but they deserve the reverence of the living for as long as their memory lives on.

Indeed.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Online andy58-in-nh

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We'll just agree to disagree.  I don't believe 9/11, horrible as it was, is in any way comparable to the methodical attempt to eliminate an entire nationality of people.

And just what do you think radical Islam is about? Its central aim is to conquer or eliminate all who oppose it, whether by means of Sharia law or by the sword. Beyond such global ambitions, the fact is that they have murdered many thousands of innocent people, and any historical locus of such brutality ought not be treated as just another graveyard.
We are entering revolutionary times. The law is no longer equally applied. The media are the ministry of truth. The Democratic party is a revolutionary force. And it is all getting scary. -VDH

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Great thread. I am however a little confused.

Those pool and barbecue parties over the Memorial Day weekend, are they a good thing or a bad thing?

Online musiclady

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Great thread. I am however a little confused.

Those pool and barbecue parties over the Memorial Day weekend, are they a good thing or a bad thing?

They're unrelated.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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They're unrelated.

My post was a set-up.

I am sorry that you bit, but I am glad that you did.

This thread and this discussion has cemented in place my absolute conviction that September 11 should NEVER be made a national holiday, because if we do, the remembrance of the day will morph into another party day.

Online musiclady

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My post was a set-up.

I am sorry that you bit, but I am glad that you did.

This thread and this discussion has cemented in place my absolute conviction that September 11 should NEVER be made a national holiday, because if we do, the remembrance of the day will morph into another party day.

I seriously considered not 'biting,' because what you were doing was fairly obvious, but I couldn't help myself.   :patriot:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I seriously considered not 'biting,' because what you were doing was fairly obvious, but I couldn't help myself.   :patriot:

You're Dean to my Jerry.

Online musiclady

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Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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I always liked Dean better anyway......  ^-^

You would too, wouldn't you?

You bad girl you.

Online musiclady

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You would too, wouldn't you?

You bad girl you.

Well, being male as you are, you may not see it, but Dean was a heck of a lot cuter than Jerry....   :whistle:

Besides which, he was an Ohio boy, and grew up just a few miles south of where I did in an even uglier rust belt city.  I HAD to like him better!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online DCPatriot

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There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field.  I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.

Exactly, Andy.

Also, Music mentioned the US Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor.   Can't agree with that example, because the deceased were in fact military targets.   The 3,000  at WTC were all civilians.

Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be a more appropriate comparison....and I sure wouldn't want to party at their respective 'ground zero'...even though it was almost 70 years ago.
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Offline sinkspur

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Exactly, Andy.

Also, Music mentioned the US Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor.   Can't agree with that example, because the deceased were in fact military targets.   The 3,000  at WTC were all civilians.

Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be a more appropriate comparison....and I sure wouldn't want to party at their respective 'ground zero'...even though it was almost 70 years ago.

Oh for God's sake!!  (that's a long "a" on "sake").

With all due respect,  that's ridiculous.  I suspect there are bars and restaurants and Japanese people who party in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, both of which were devastated by the bombs.

As Victor pointed out above, is it wrong for someone to have any kind of fun in a house in which someone was murdered? 

Most Irish have the proper attitude toward the dead.

Sean and Brendan were sitting at the bar and, after several pops, Sean said "Brendan, if I die first, could you pour a pint of McEwen's (Scotch) on me grave after I'm gone?"

Brendan looked up and said  "Sure, Sean, if I can pass it through me kidneys first."
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline mountaineer

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Well, being male as you are, you may not see it, but Dean was a heck of a lot cuter than Jerry....   :whistle:

Besides which, he was an Ohio boy, and grew up just a few miles south of where I did in an even uglier rust belt city.  I HAD to like him better!
Dino Crocetti, the patron saint of Steubenville (just up the road from me)!

Online musiclady

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Dino Crocetti, the patron saint of Steubenville (just up the road from me)!

Yes, indeed!  Growing up south of Youngstown (where I acquired a taste for swarthy men, even though I ended up marrying a blonde!), I knew well of Dino's lovely hometown.

In fact, my Dad played football for Youngstown South High (sitting on the bench) and they played Steubenville High where young Dino also sat on the bench, so it's possible that my Dad sat across the field from Mr. Crocetti during the years they were both in High School, but not getting into the game.

(Long before I was born, of course!  ^-^ )
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online musiclady

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Oh for God's sake!!  (that's a long "a" on "sake").

With all due respect,  that's ridiculous.  I suspect there are bars and restaurants and Japanese people who party in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, both of which were devastated by the bombs.

As Victor pointed out above, is it wrong for someone to have any kind of fun in a house in which someone was murdered? 

Most Irish have the proper attitude toward the dead.

Sean and Brendan were sitting at the bar and, after several pops, Sean said "Brendan, if I die first, could you pour a pint of McEwen's (Scotch) on me grave after I'm gone?"

Brendan looked up and said  "Sure, Sean, if I can pass it through me kidneys first."

Why do you seem incapable of disagreeing agreeably, sinkspur?

There is, of course, a clear difference between Nagasaki, Hiroshima and the WTC Memorial site.

NO one here is saying that there should be no parties in all of NYC.  Only at the place where the dead still lie buried.

Sort of like the USS Arizona.   Or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

Why do you look down on those who find it inappropriate?
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online Fishrrman

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mass wrote:
[[ I see your point, but this is not a tomb...]]

But it -IS- a "tomb". With ashes scattered all around.

Not long after the World Trade Center attacks, I was possibly the first to post the suggestion that nothing be built on the site, that it become a memorial and perhaps a burial ground (a la Arlington) for those killed in the war with islam.

Unfortunately, it is a "war" that we are NOT "winning", in any sense of the word, even after being involved in Iraq and Afghanistan.

A "museum" is ok, I guess.

Do they drink wine and celebrate at the Holocaust museum down in DC ??

---

Andy wrote above:
[[ Many of those responsible for evil acts like those that resulted in the need for a WTC memorial are still at large.
And they are watching us. ]]

Yes. From the White House....

----

Andy also wrote:
[[ There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field.  I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz. ]]

I've been to Dachau, walked through the gas chambers and stuck my head into the ovens.

What happened at "ground zero" was an act of war. A war against Western Civilization, and a demonstration of islam's intent for us. It was no ordinary place of ordinary death.

I was at ground zero soon after the attack, when you could walk on the nearby streets and leave your footprints in the dust -- dust that may have been that of the victims as well as that of the collapsed structures.

That space is hallowed ground, as much so as the cemetery at Arlington. I chafed that they built anything there, but New Yorkers are essentially stupid.

But having said that, The West these days doesn't seem all that much brighter.

The attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon was a Clarion Call -- a sounding of the cry of battle. We didn't start the fight, but if we wish to survive as a culture, we have no choice to finish it.

And this is one fight where the end -WILL JUSTIFY- the means.
The only option is to fight for survival, whatever it takes.
If we cannot find the intestinal fortitude for that, we will lose.

I have yet to see much evidence that we are fighting to win...

Offline Bigun

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NO one here is saying that there should be no parties in all of NYC.  Only at the place where the dead still lie buried.

Haven't been there lately but the last time I visited i noticed no shortage of places where partying took place pretty much 24/7 .

Pick one of those and keep it off of that hallowed ground!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 08:52:56 PM by Bigun »

Offline sinkspur

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Why do you seem incapable of disagreeing agreeably, sinkspur?

There is, of course, a clear difference between Nagasaki, Hiroshima and the WTC Memorial site.

NO one here is saying that there should be no parties in all of NYC.  Only at the place where the dead still lie buried.

Sort of like the USS Arizona.   Or the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.

Why do you look down on those who find it inappropriate?

You mistake disagreement for condescension.

It's fine if you find someone having a drink at the 9/11 museum inappropriate. 

Some of us don't.

And, by the way, I don't think my disagreement with DC was disagreeable.  Nor does he, apparently.

Let's leave it at that.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Online andy58-in-nh

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You mistake disagreement for condescension.

It's fine if you find someone having a drink at the 9/11 museum inappropriate. 

Some of us don't.

And, by the way, I don't think my disagreement with DC was disagreeable.  Nor does he, apparently.

Let's leave it at that.

I'll suggest this: if you had once worked on the 79th floor of the South Tower, as I once did, you might feel a bit differently about having a drink in the basement where people you once had worked with were atomized as their families watched in horror on TV.

I understand that you are not being intentionally disrespectful. But there is a difference too, between watching a stranger's house burn, and watching your neighbor's house burn, and most explicitly, watching yours do the same.

Perhaps part of the problem in deciding what is appropriate behavior in this event is that we as Americans are conflicted about it. On 9/11, we were united as a nation and as a people. We were attacked and we rallied around one another. Today, the meaning of those events is less well agreed-upon, as we have resumed the trends toward cultural fragmentation and social atomization that long preceded the events of September 11th.

Put another way: what happened to the Towers is in fact happening to America, and to see it reflected back in our own attitudes can be unsettling or perhaps at times, a bit more than that.
We are entering revolutionary times. The law is no longer equally applied. The media are the ministry of truth. The Democratic party is a revolutionary force. And it is all getting scary. -VDH

Online Oceander

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I like the concept of the Irish wake, m'self.

Online musiclady

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Haven't been there lately but the last time I visited i noticed no shortage of places where partying took place pretty much 24/7 .

Pick one of those and keep it off of that hallowed ground!

Yep.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online musiclady

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You mistake disagreement for condescension.

It's fine if you find someone having a drink at the 9/11 museum inappropriate. 

Some of us don't.

And, by the way, I don't think my disagreement with DC was disagreeable.  Nor does he, apparently.

Let's leave it at that.

Well, now.  Had you reduced your condescension to this level of politeness, I wouldn't have said a word about your overall disagreeable attitude.  (btw, DC hasn't been back.  No idea if your post hit him the same disagreeable way).

We obviously have different views on this, which is fine.

I happen to be in agreement with those who believe this is hallowed ground, and not a place for partying.

For me, it doesn't matter that it was civilians vaporized, and not military.  It was an act of war, and most of those who died were Americans on American soil.

There is really no complete parallel in history, so trying to equate 9/11 with any other event in history is not going to work.  Thus, we have only come up with approximations.

The bottom line is, for me, this is sacred ground, and the situation is very, very different than celebrating someone's life at a wake (we Baptist/Presbyterians don't do that), nor is it like having bars in rebuilt Hiroshima.  It is more like the forest in Ukraine I mentioned earlier, where innocent people were slaughtered by evil, which has remained a place of quiet reflection for decades.

I don't think the place should be desecrated by revelry.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online Fishrrman

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Andy wrote above:
[[ Put another way: what happened to the Towers is in fact happening to America, and to see it reflected back in our own attitudes can be unsettling or perhaps at times, a bit more than that. ]]

Interesting that you put it that way.

A few months' back, I made the remark to a friend that Western Civilization was deteriorating and might reach the point where it would suddenly collapse as did the World Trade Center towers after the attack.

That the fall of The West might happen extraordinarily fast, once it begins....

Offline PzLdr

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Exactly, Andy.

Also, Music mentioned the US Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor.   Can't agree with that example, because the deceased were in fact military targets.   The 3,000  at WTC were all civilians.

Hiroshima or Nagasaki would be a more appropriate comparison....and I sure wouldn't want to party at their respective 'ground zero'...even though it was almost 70 years ago.

I might. My uncle got killed on Guam by a Jap sniper. And he wouldn't have been there in the first place, except for December 7, 1941.
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