Author Topic: 'Did you enjoy having drinks on top of my brother's grave?' Sister of WTC victim lashes out at 9/11 Memorial cocktail party guests  (Read 3084 times)

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Offline mountaineer

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A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

Offline mountaineer

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A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

Offline mountaineer

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A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

Offline massadvj

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If I was Robert Shay and I had died on 9/11 I think I would want my sister to go on with her life and not obsess over my memory.  I would also want life to go on, and since schmoozing parties among elites are a part of life, they should happen as well.  Memorials and funerals are for the living.  The living should use the event to accommodate their needs, not the needs of the dead.

I am no fan of NYC elitist liberals, but come on.  Using one's dead brother to hurl insults and score political points is too much.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline DCPatriot

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If I was Robert Shay and I had died on 9/11 I think I would want my sister to go on with her life and not obsess over my memory.  I would also want life to go on, and since schmoozing parties among elites are a part of life, they should happen as well.  Memorials and funerals are for the living.  The living should use the event to accommodate their needs, not the needs of the dead.

I am no fan of NYC elitist liberals, but come on.  Using one's dead brother to hurl insults and score political points is too much.

Excuse me?

How about you go and open up a bottle of wine at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier and see what happens to you. 

Maybe you've been dulled by the passage of time, sir, but not me.

Rent a god-damned hotel conference room up the street for your 'celebration.   The WTC site should be off-limits.
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Offline massadvj

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Excuse me?

How about you go and open up a bottle of wine at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier and see what happens to you. 

Maybe you've been dulled by the passage of time, sir, but not me.

Rent a god-damned hotel conference room up the street for your 'celebration.   The WTC site should be off-limits.

I see your point, but this is not a tomb.  This is a museum.  A celebration upon the opening of a museum seems to me to be a perfectly appropriate thing to do.  The fact that people are going on with their lives -- laughing, playing, eating and drinking, raising money for charity, having children, wrestling with tragedies -- is a testament to the dead because they died precisely so we could continue to have our freedom.  If I were among the dead, seeing people having a celebration on the site of my demise would warm my heart for the precise reason that it meant they were thinking about themselves and their needs, and not about me.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline DCPatriot

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....The fact that people are going on with their lives -- laughing, playing, eating and drinking, raising money for charity, having children, wrestling with tragedies -- is a testament to the dead because they died precisely so we could continue to have our freedom.


No sir.   That doesn't fly.  They went to work that Tuesday morning just like you.

They were murdered by crazy fanatics.   Their deaths were NOT "precisely so we could continue to have our freedom".


At the very least, they should wait until all next of kin of the victims have died of old age, etc..

« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 08:31:50 AM by DCPatriot »
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - Iowahawk

Offline massadvj

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No sir.   That doesn't fly.  They went to work that Tuesday morning just like you.

They were murdered by crazy fanatics.   Their deaths were NOT "precisely so we could continue to have our freedom".

Well, we are going to just have to disagree on this one.  If you come to my funeral, feel free to have a good time.  Eat, drink and be merry.  If I come to yours, I'll be reverential.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline mountaineer

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A day without sunshine is like, you know, night.

Offline DCPatriot

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Well, we are going to just have to disagree on this one.  If you come to my funeral, feel free to have a good time.  Eat, drink and be merry.  If I come to yours, I'll be reverential.

I understand, Victor....not trying to give you hard time here.

Seeing as how the TWO of us can't agree....imagine how it is when almost 3,000 are involved?

I can still 'see' those people jumping...choosing that instead of burning alive.   Maybe I'm just too sensitive....  :shrug:
"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

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Offline massadvj

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The museum sits on the site where all those people died, so it essentially is a tomb, isn't it?
Here's the original story in the NY Daily News:

If I buy a house from an estate knowing that someone died in that house, does that mean I cannot hold parties in that house?

It reminds me of a guy I knew when I was in the real estate business.  He bought a house very cheap right after there was a murder/suicide in it.  A man fought with his wife and then killed the whole family and then himself.  Every Halloween he would have a party and re-enact the crime.  Now, some people would be offended by that.  But it strikes me as a very human thing to do.
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline massadvj

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Seeing as how the TWO of us can't agree....imagine how it is when almost 3,000 are involved?

That's just the thing.  The fact that 3,000 lives were involved makes it even more imperative that we go on living.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 08:43:43 AM by massadvj »
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline DCPatriot

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If I buy a house from an estate knowing that someone died in that house, does that mean I cannot hold parties in that house?

It reminds me of a guy I knew when I was in the real estate business.  He bought a house very cheap right after there was a murder/suicide in it.  A man fought with his wife and then killed the whole family and then himself.  Every Halloween he would have a party and re-enact the crime.  Now, some people would be offended by that.  But it strikes me as a very human thing to do.

Are the victims of that murder suicide buried in the basement?  [/s]

Are you seriously equating your example with what happend that September 11th?  :whistle:



"It aint what you don't know that kills you.  It's what you know that aint so!" ...Theodore Sturgeon

"Journalism is about covering the news.  With a pillow.  Until it stops moving."    - Iowahawk

Offline musiclady

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I see your point, but this is not a tomb.   This is a museum.  A celebration upon the opening of a museum seems to me to be a perfectly appropriate thing to do.  The fact that people are going on with their lives -- laughing, playing, eating and drinking, raising money for charity, having children, wrestling with tragedies -- is a testament to the dead because they died precisely so we could continue to have our freedom.  If I were among the dead, seeing people having a celebration on the site of my demise would warm my heart for the precise reason that it meant they were thinking about themselves and their needs, and not about me.

Yes, it IS a tomb, and it should be treated as such.

Partying there is way out of line.  WAY out of line.
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Offline musiclady

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If I buy a house from an estate knowing that someone died in that house, does that mean I cannot hold parties in that house?

It reminds me of a guy I knew when I was in the real estate business.  He bought a house very cheap right after there was a murder/suicide in it.  A man fought with his wife and then killed the whole family and then himself.  Every Halloween he would have a party and re-enact the crime.  Now, some people would be offended by that.  But it strikes me as a very human thing to do.

Obviously, as DC has pointed out, your comparison isn't valid.

This would be more like having a party over the U.S.S. Arizona at Pearl Harbor.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline Rivergirl

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Wonder what the reaction would have been if all those first responders had decided they had some parties to attend and decided not to rush to the burning towers to rescue those inside.

Evidently there is no low too low for  Bloomers and his ilk.   Let's never forget how they chose to party on the graves of those lost in the attack.

Offline alicewonders

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For me, this comes to mind - if I was one of the victims of 9/11 that perished in those buildings that day - I would want my country to pursue those bastards with steely resolve and not stop until we had VANQUISHED them once and for all!

At least, with Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust victims - there is some little sense of closure in that we defeated them.  I don't have that sense of vindication or closure with 9/11 - quite the opposite.  It feels like an open oozing sore that never can heal. 

This museum IS a tomb!  I think if one of my loved ones had perished there, it would bother me too.  Yes, celebrate their lives - but never FORGET and never REST until the enemy has been obliterated!

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Offline andy58-in-nh

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For me, this comes to mind - if I was one of the victims of 9/11 that perished in those buildings that day - I would want my country to pursue those bastards with steely resolve and not stop until we had VANQUISHED them once and for all!

At least, with Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust victims - there is some little sense of closure in that we defeated them.  I don't have that sense of vindication or closure with 9/11 - quite the opposite.  It feels like an open oozing sore that never can heal. 

This museum IS a tomb!  I think if one of my loved ones had perished there, it would bother me too.  Yes, celebrate their lives - but never FORGET and never REST until the enemy has been obliterated!

I must agree with you on this issue.

I understand and appreciate the laudable human impulse expressed elsewhere in this space, that as human beings we must move on with our lives and not be afraid to laugh and sing and drink and make merry. So we should. Our very humanity demands an appreciation of the life that has been given us.

But not there. 

There is a time and a place for everything, and in this event there is no cause to celebrate, especially while standing in the very footprint of what too many of us still pretend was a "tragedy" or a "catastrophe" but which was in truth, an act of mass murder.   

The building that now casts its shadow over that giant footprint is in part, a rebuke to the murderers. The waterfalls that today softly cascade upon the tombs of incinerated innocents, with their names etched in stone above two great square holes in the ground serve both as a reminder and a warning. Life does go on, but we must never forget and never again allow our complacency and tolerance of evil to permit such a thing to happen again.

By conducting a party on such a site, we demonstrate neither remembrance, nor reverence, nor respect, nor reflection. Instead, it demonstrates a will to forget, and a willful blindness.

Many of those responsible for evil acts like those that resulted in the need for a WTC memorial are still at large.

And they are watching us.


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Offline EC

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With respect:

Quote
By conducting a party on such a site, we demonstrate neither remembrance, nor reverence, nor respect, nor reflection. Instead, it demonstrates a will to forget, and a willful blindness.

After every terrorist bombing in London, the pubs are packed. Restaurants are packed. Clubs are packed, with hours long queues to get in. It's about the only way we, as a people, can give the terrorists one giant Eff you.
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Offline sinkspur

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If I was Robert Shay and I had died on 9/11 I think I would want my sister to go on with her life and not obsess over my memory.  I would also want life to go on, and since schmoozing parties among elites are a part of life, they should happen as well.  Memorials and funerals are for the living.  The living should use the event to accommodate their needs, not the needs of the dead.

I am no fan of NYC elitist liberals, but come on.  Using one's dead brother to hurl insults and score political points is too much.

Victor, I agree with you. 

Jesus himself said to the young man who wanted to follow him but had to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead."  Life is for the living, and life goes on, in all its forms.  Obsessing over the dead or using them to beat others over the head is unseemly. 

Anybody ever been to an Irish wake?  Lots of drinking and laughing and celebrating. 

Come on, folks.  A cemetery full of bones is not "sacred ground."  It's just a cemetery full of bones.  The souls of those who died on 9/11 are in glory doing what?

Celebrating the vision of God.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Not trying to be flippant here, but isn't Shay an Irish surname?

I've attended more than one Irish wake...

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Victor, I agree with you. 

Jesus himself said to the young man who wanted to follow him but had to bury his father "Let the dead bury the dead."  Life is for the living, and life goes on, in all its forms.  Obsessing over the dead or using them to beat others over the head is unseemly. 

Anybody ever been to an Irish wake?  Lots of drinking and laughing and celebrating. 

Come on, folks.  A cemetery full of bones is not "sacred ground."  It's just a cemetery full of bones.  The souls of those who died on 9/11 are in glory doing what?

Celebrating the vision of God.

There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field.  I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.

Offline musiclady

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There's a difference between a cemetary and a killing field.  I have in fact drunk toasts to the departed at their gravesites, and laughed with friends and families at wakes. I would not be comfortable doing so at Dachau or Auschwitz.

I agree.

And there's a huge difference between this, and celebrating the life of a loved one at a wake with merriment.

A dispassionate (for the victims) party held at the 'death camp' of thousands is completely inappropriate.

I don't believe it has to do with individuals who have lost loved ones' getting on with their lives, but of respect for those whose lives were lost to an evil enemy.

Your comparison with Auschwitz is a good one.  There is a forest outside Kiev, Ukraine where Stalin took his 'enemies' out and mowed them down and buried them in shallow graves.  Their families posted photos of them on trees afterwards, and when we were there decades after it happened, they were still there, and the forest untouched.

When we visited the site, there was a hushed silence in remembrance of those lost.

The victims of 9/11 deserve respect, and their graves should be honored.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 11:56:35 AM by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline musiclady

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For me, this comes to mind - if I was one of the victims of 9/11 that perished in those buildings that day - I would want my country to pursue those bastards with steely resolve and not stop until we had VANQUISHED them once and for all!

At least, with Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust victims - there is some little sense of closure in that we defeated them.  I don't have that sense of vindication or closure with 9/11 - quite the opposite.  It feels like an open oozing sore that never can heal. 

This museum IS a tomb!  I think if one of my loved ones had perished there, it would bother me too.  Yes, celebrate their lives - but never FORGET and never REST until the enemy has been obliterated!

There cannot be 'closure' when the evil enemy who killed thousands of Americans is thriving, and growing like a cancer all over the world, in part, because our punk sympathizing president has encouraged it.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline andy58-in-nh

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I agree.

And there's a huge difference between this, and celebrating the life of a loved one at a wake with merriment.

A dispassionate (for the victims) party held at the 'death camp' of thousands is completely inappropriate.

I don't believe it has to do with individuals who have lost loved ones' getting on with their lives, but of respect for those whose lives were lost to an evil enemy.

Your comparison with Auschwitz is a good one.  There is a forest outside Kiev, Ukraine where Stalin took his 'enemies' out and mowed them down and buried them in shallow graves.  Their families posted photos of them on trees afterwards, and when we were there decades after it happened, they were still there, and the forest untouched.

When we visited the site, there was a hushed silence in remembrance of those lost.

The victims of 9/11 deserve respect, and their graves should be honored.

The ghosts of Katyn Forest and those of the Twin Towers may never be avenged, but they deserve the reverence of the living for as long as their memory lives on.
Liberalism isn't really about making the world a better place. It's about reassuring the elites that they are good people for wanting to rule over it.


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