Author Topic: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?  (Read 4296 times)

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Offline Right_in_Virginia

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 11:34:36 pm »
Well, now the GOP is striking back... and they and the Democrats both have the money. Working class schleps don't.

And the establishment politicos don't have to worry about the IRS.

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2014, 01:20:32 am »
Luis wrote:
[[ Did you really expect the GOP NOT to fight back? ]]

They can fight back if they wish.

But they will not be able to take my vote for granted any more.

That's how -I- will "fight back".

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2014, 01:36:40 am »
Luis wrote:
[[ Did you really expect the GOP NOT to fight back? ]]

They can fight back if they wish.

But they will not be able to take my vote for granted any more.

That's how -I- will "fight back".

Fair enough.

Just don't go trying to make the GOPe vs Tea Party argument.

Look around.

The Tea Party is being run by GOPe players.
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Offline evadR

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2014, 02:07:56 am »
"The Tea Party is being run by GOPe players."

Really? Are you series?

WHO??
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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2014, 02:16:00 am »
Bet you money that if I showed up dressed like Betsy Ross they'd call me a liberal and throw my ass out.


:bigsilly:

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2014, 03:12:05 am »
"The Tea Party is being run by GOPe players."

Really? Are you series?

WHO??

Do you think that the members of the Congressional Tea Party Caucus are NOT establishment politicians?
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Offline evadR

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2014, 03:08:08 am »
"The Tea Party is being run by GOPe players."

Really? Are you series?

WHO??

Do you think that the members of the Congressional Tea Party Caucus are NOT establishment politicians?"

What I think is that you need to support your claim that "The Tea Party is being run by GOPe players."

What I think is that I asked you to give an example of who specifically in the GOPe is running the Tea Party.

I think your claim is erroneous so I am requesting specifics from you to back it up.  IF you can, great, but I'd like to know who they are.

That's what I think.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2014, 03:58:00 am »
"The Tea Party is being run by GOPe players."

Really? Are you series?

WHO??

Do you think that the members of the Congressional Tea Party Caucus are NOT establishment politicians?"

What I think is that you need to support your claim that "The Tea Party is being run by GOPe players."

What I think is that I asked you to give an example of who specifically in the GOPe is running the Tea Party.

I think your claim is erroneous so I am requesting specifics from you to back it up.  IF you can, great, but I'd like to know who they are.

That's what I think.

There's NO ONE running the Tea Party, according to EVERYONE in the Tea Party, but there is a Tea Party caucus in Congress with almost 50 members chaired by Michele Bachmann. That's fifty establishment politicians headed by an establishment politician.

The Tea Party has no website, except for the many Tea Party websites that are out there, and when I quote something from the TeaParty.org website as representative of the Tea Parrty, I am chided by Tea Party people in this forum who say that the Tea Party doesn't have a website.
 
But when someone from the Dewhurst campaign claims that Dewhurst is endorsed by a Texas Tea Party, the Dewhurst campoaig immediately call that Tea Patrty a fake because it doesn't have a website.

The face of the Tea Party are people like Palin, Cruz and Bachman. All establishment politicians. Palin ran on the GOP ticket as VP... don't go trying to tell me how she's not establishment.

Whatever the Tea Party s, it is run by career, establishment politicians in DC and political pundits.

Everything else out there is (unfortunately) amateur night.

I say unfortunately because there are a whole lot of good people putting in work and energy into something that (IMHO) will never reach the standards they seek to attain.

 
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline evadR

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2014, 05:13:32 am »
So, if I understand you, Palin, Cruz and Bachman are examples of the GOPe.

You definition of GOPe and mine differ.

I would call these three individuals staunch conservatives, not elitist or establishment.

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Offline evadR

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2014, 05:23:20 am »
"..don't go trying to tell me how she's not establishment. "

She's anti establishment if anything. So is Cruz. They both oppose just about everything Boner and his gang stand for.

If your definition of establishment is that a person ran for office, then all politicians are establishment.

When I think of GOPe, my prime examples are Boner, McCain, Graham, et al.

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2014, 05:36:27 am »
So, if I understand you, Palin, Cruz and Bachman are examples of the GOPe.

You definition of GOPe and mine differ.

I would call these three individuals staunch conservatives, not elitist or establishment.

No.

It's actually more subtle than that.

Your idea of what constitutes the "establishment" somehow seems to exclude people who are clearly part of the establishment.

Palin was the VP nominee for the GOP.

You may want to believe that the biggest establishment pol in the GOP picked a non establishment candidate to be a heartbeat away from the presidency, but that would be you wishing what it just ain't so.

Bachmann has been a politician for 14 years.

She says all the right things, but she was in DC before there was a Tea Party. What was she then? Anti-GOP establishment?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 02:23:43 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2014, 05:43:50 am »
"..don't go trying to tell me how she's not establishment. "

She's anti establishment if anything. So is Cruz. They both oppose just about everything Boner and his gang stand for.

If your definition of establishment is that a person ran for office, then all politicians are establishment.

When I think of GOPe, my prime examples are Boner, McCain, Graham, et al.

Palin is anti-establishment, yet the establishment picked her for the VP slot.

If Palin didn't oppose Bohner, she wouldn't get the handsomely paid speaking gigs from the Tea Party groups.

She gets somewhere $75K and $100K to speak at your event.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline olde north church

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2014, 10:38:28 am »
Perhaps it's time to the Tea Party to ditch the Conservatives.  If one thing can be learned from history, revolutions consume the first leaders.  Started with the Greek pantheon destroying the Titans and goes on to this day.
"The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea.".  Mao
Okay, it's a bit melodramatic.  Kids don't wear Robespierre t-shirts or carry around Jefferson's "Little Red Book".  It's all about the perception.
The Occu-bleep were binding up traffic, stinking up Mickey Ds and dropping deuces on cop cars.  Yet they were media darlings.  Girls always like the "bad boy", the lovable rogue, the handsome scoundrel.  Even if the girls were the Press Corps and the NYT Editorial Board and the Occupy rank and file were filthy scumbags, the leadership worse.
The Tea Party types, in their period costumes, hats rimmed with dangling tea bags and non-confrontational manner and picking up after themselves at rallies were too easily cast the nerd, the geek, the uncool gang.  Was it even a toss up as too who's side America would take?  The "Fonz" or "Potsie" Weber?
People seek a leader like water seeking it's own level.  We can hardly point to the LIVs and Obamatons, when many latched onto Palin or await the return of a "new" Reagan.
It's time to return to the original Tea Party roots:   fiscal responsibility and low taxes.  Everything else is just garnish.
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Online mountaineer

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2014, 01:32:48 pm »
It's time to return to the original Tea Party roots:   fiscal responsibility and low taxes.  Everything else is just garnish.
:amen:
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2014, 01:46:51 pm »
Perhaps it's time to the Tea Party to ditch the Conservatives.  If one thing can be learned from history, revolutions consume the first leaders.  Started with the Greek pantheon destroying the Titans and goes on to this day.
"The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea.".  Mao
Okay, it's a bit melodramatic.  Kids don't wear Robespierre t-shirts or carry around Jefferson's "Little Red Book".  It's all about the perception.
The Occu-bleep were binding up traffic, stinking up Mickey Ds and dropping deuces on cop cars.  Yet they were media darlings.  Girls always like the "bad boy", the lovable rogue, the handsome scoundrel.  Even if the girls were the Press Corps and the NYT Editorial Board and the Occupy rank and file were filthy scumbags, the leadership worse.
The Tea Party types, in their period costumes, hats rimmed with dangling tea bags and non-confrontational manner and picking up after themselves at rallies were too easily cast the nerd, the geek, the uncool gang.  Was it even a toss up as too who's side America would take?  The "Fonz" or "Potsie" Weber?
People seek a leader like water seeking it's own level.  We can hardly point to the LIVs and Obamatons, when many latched onto Palin or await the return of a "new" Reagan.
It's time to return to the original Tea Party roots:   fiscal responsibility and low taxes.  Everything else is just garnish.

Hear, hear!
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2014, 01:51:56 pm »
Agree that the Tea Party should only be about fiscal responsibility and States rights.  Anything else just pulls people apart into little groups.  Time is of the essence too, the demographics of the makers and the takers are rapidly tipping the scale in favor of the takers.  We can barely manage a majority right now.  There is no more time left to waste on this before it becomes impossible to right the ship!

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Offline olde north church

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2014, 02:16:07 pm »
Agree that the Tea Party should only be about fiscal responsibility and States rights.  Anything else just pulls people apart into little groups.  Time is of the essence too, the demographics of the makers and the takers are rapidly tipping the scale in favor of the takers.  We can barely manage a majority right now.  There is no more time left to waste on this before it becomes impossible to right the ship!

There is the strategy of states as well, using the Electoral College as a template.  Win the state houses, governorships and sheriff's offices.  The feds can march into Nevada or Utah or Colorado but they can't move into 10 states or 15 states or 20 states.
Like dominoes, the other states will move into line because success breeds success.  People are moving to Texas and South Carolina because they FEEL outnumbered.  There are many subtle shifts before the earthquake.  If you don't feel what's happening underfoot, you get crushed.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 02:16:56 pm by olde north church »
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2014, 02:21:38 pm »

The Tea Party types, in their period costumes, hats rimmed with dangling tea bags and non-confrontational manner and picking up after themselves at rallies were too easily cast the nerd, the geek, the uncool gang. 

What's ironic is that these non-confrontational, law abiding people (good, honest people) in their period costume are trying to emulate and depict the most unlawful, confrontational people in the history of the nation.

MLK once said that "When you're right you cannot be too radical", however he also pointed out that "when you're wrong you cannot be too conservative."

We have too decide whether we're right or wrong, then act accordingly.

The people whose clothes are being emulated in Tea Party rallies were radicals, not conservatives.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2014, 02:44:19 pm »
I also think the word "conservative" is as over-used and meaningless as the word "RINO".  I guess we need to come up with a "sexier" term that will cross over better than white bread "conservative".  We need to come up with something that sounds more "organic".  I am serious. 

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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2014, 02:50:24 pm »
I also think the word "conservative" is as over-used and meaningless as the word "RINO".  I guess we need to come up with a "sexier" term that will cross over better than white bread "conservative".  We need to come up with something that sounds more "organic".  I am serious.
Well, that was part of the whole Tea Party appeal. Of course, the liberals trashed that, too, so keep in mind that any new term that comes up will probably get slandered to death.

Of course, if we can beat them to it, it's a moot point.
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Offline EC

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2014, 02:53:46 pm »
Patriots?  :patriot:
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Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2014, 03:11:21 pm »
Quote
The people whose clothes are being emulated in Tea Party rallies were radicals, not conservatives.

Edmund Burke, MP and the father of modern conservatism distinguished between the radical French revolution which he ultimately deplored and the American revolution which he supported. 
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2014, 03:15:01 pm »
Well, that was part of the whole Tea Party appeal. Of course, the liberals trashed that, too, so keep in mind that any new term that comes up will probably get slandered to death.

Of course, if we can beat them to it, it's a moot point.

The whole package is damaged.  The vehicle (Republican Party) is not cool - only concerned with protecting rich white men - according to the media's wildly successful portrayal.  I'm just about at the point where I think it would take too long to change that perception, especially with young people.  I think we need a completely new makeover and new spokespeople to convey our message. 

Instead of constantly talking about how the Democrats promise freebies to worthless do-nothings - we should be enlightening people about how the Democrats (and Republicans)  - ergo Washington DC - are actually THE biggest corporation in the US!  When you can relate "corporate greed" to how the government treats us little people - I think you can start to reach the young people that have been indoctrinated to have this "knee-jerk" reaction to the concept of "corporations". 

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2014, 04:08:31 pm »
Edmund Burke, MP and the father of modern conservatism distinguished between the radical French revolution which he ultimately deplored and the American revolution which he supported.

Burke's view of the french Revolution was that it deconstructed the foundations of a society which (in his view) wasn't needed to restore liberty ("You may have subverted Monarchy, but not recover'd freedom").

The first recorded time that Burke spoke of the French Revolution was in 1790 in Parliament answering members who praised it:

Quote
"The French had shewn themselves the ablest architects of ruin that had hitherto existed in the world. In that very short space of time they had completely pulled down to the ground, their monarchy; their church; their nobility; their law; their revenue; their army; their navy; their commerce; their arts; and their manufactures...[there was a danger of] an imitation of the excesses of an irrational, unprincipled, proscribing, confiscating, plundering, ferocious, bloody and tyrannical democracy...[in religion] the danger of their example is no longer from intolerance, but from Atheism; a foul, unnatural vice, foe to all the dignity and consolation of mankind; which seems in France, for a long time, to have been embodied into a faction, accredited, and almost avowed."

Burke detested the French Revolution's descent into anarchy, which is tyranny of another sort, and atheism. In contrast, he saw the American Revolution as building a new society founded on the essential cornerstones of order, law, God and liberty.

Somewhere in the comments on my "Lolita" piece I mentioned that the notes left "on the floor" as I wrote it were almost as voluminous as the piece itself. I left nearly everything about Burke and Kirk off for the sake of expediency, limiting any commentary on both of them to about half a sentence.
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Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Is It Time for Conservatives to Ditch the Tea Party?
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2014, 04:09:06 pm »
The whole package is damaged.  The vehicle (Republican Party) is not cool - only concerned with protecting rich white men - according to the media's wildly successful portrayal.  I'm just about at the point where I think it would take too long to change that perception, especially with young people.  I think we need a completely new makeover and new spokespeople to convey our message. 

Instead of constantly talking about how the Democrats promise freebies to worthless do-nothings - we should be enlightening people about how the Democrats (and Republicans)  - ergo Washington DC - are actually THE biggest corporation in the US!  When you can relate "corporate greed" to how the government treats us little people - I think you can start to reach the young people that have been indoctrinated to have this "knee-jerk" reaction to the concept of "corporations".

I completely understand what you are saying Alice.  You can look at recent history for two distinct ways that younger people were reached by a political/governance message.  On one hand (especially for 2008), the 0bama campaign was very successful in reaching out to masses of the "brain dead" (I will use that term as a convenient shorthand, fully understanding that not all that responded were brain dead, in fact, some small portion were fully cognizant of the radical agenda that would soon be unleashed) younger folks by basically projecting an image of "the young, hip, black guy is really cool and is going to fix everything that that damn old, rich, white guy screwed up."  All it took was a splashy social media presence, getting a lot of young pop culture icons on board, and well, the rest is history.  (The take away from this was how easy it was to manipulate a mass of non-thinking youth.)

On the other hand, what was the only other political/governance movement of recent time to attract a groundswell of support and popularity from younger people?

Ron Paul.

In so many ways the Liberty Movement that grew out of his 2008 & 2012 campaigns attracted almost the polar opposite of the "0bama Youth."  (Again, I am going to generalize for the point of the discussion, certainly there were/are exceptional examples of what many like to blanket categorize as "typical" Ron Paul supporters: pot smoking hippy kids.)  But in general, these were/are young people that are using their brains, thinking about the overwhelming encroachment of government and cronyism in our everyday lives, and responding to the same messages about Freedom, Liberty, and Natural rights that our Founders discussed and enshrined in the Constitution.  The Liberty Movement is also "young, hip, and cool" but it is not a set of empty, meaningless platitudes.  It focuses on many of the same principles and ideals that most posters here hold in high regard. 

(And yes, as a matter of full disclosure, I personally have supported and voted for Ron Paul every chance that I had.  And my late 20s son has been very active in the Liberty Movement.  So yes, I speak from much personal experience in this matter, and can be called a "Paulbot" by anyone that chooses to use that term.)

My reason for describing all of this is, not to set myself up as a target for the name callers, but rather to suggest an example of how something that you are talking about actually has worked.  In some sense, the Liberty Movement has found a way to make being a "Patriot" (to use EC's label from above) cool, hip, and relevant to a large portion of the younger generations.  The problem that we run into, as witnessed by the numerous discussions in all of the Tea Party threads of late, is the there are two segments of the overall "conservative" superset that can not be comfortable in all aspects of the Liberty Movement.  Of course those segments are the 'neocons' that reject the principle of non-interventionism out of hand, and the 'social conservatives' that don't understand that it is not a legitimate role of government to legislate morality.

I guess, all that I am suggesting is that we do have a ready made example of how the younger generations can respond to a message of government constrained by the Constitution, personal liberty and freedom, and the beauty of the operation of a free market economy.  To me, this is probably the best starting point to attracting and gaining young people in significant numbers to eventually make a difference.