Author Topic: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People  (Read 1612 times)

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Offline rangerrebew

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1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« on: May 21, 2014, 06:29:23 AM »
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2014, 09:06:02 AM »
Quote
When our Founding Fathers created our nation, they did so to make it a nation of the people where their will would rule. In that endeavor, they established three different branches of the federal government. Each branch has their own powers and duties, but ultimately, it is the will of the majority of the people that was supposed to rule.

That is astoundingly wrong.

What the author described in that sentence is a Democracy, the rule of the omnipotent majority, and NOT the government established by our Constitution and the Founders.

No one "rules" in the system of government established by the founders, especially the majority.

The Founders set in place a Republic for the purpose of controlling the Majority and to stop them from violating the right of the individuals. By doing that, by protecting the rights of individuals is how all our rights are protected.

Americans are governed by consensus, tempered by existing laws and guided by the respect for individual freedoms, not the whim of the collective.

The will of the people is enshrined in the Constitution and we don't reassess what that will is with every political or social breeze that may blow. We apply the Constitution to each situation and struggle to find that answer which best addresses the right to the individual to his or her own rights.

Americans are not ruled, not even the ones despised by the Majority.

« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 09:06:42 AM by Luis Gonzalez »

Offline rangerrebew

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2014, 09:52:27 AM »

Americans are not ruled, not even the ones despised by the Majority.

NOT YET.  BUT IT WON'T BE LONG.
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim tribute to patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness -- these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. . . . reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principles."
George Washington

"Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become more corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters."
Benjamin Franklin

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2014, 09:58:20 AM »
NOT YET.  BUT IT WON'T BE LONG.

If and when that happens, it won't be right.

The point is that this writer thinks that this should be the case now because he's part of the majority.

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 12:42:49 PM »
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Bigun

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 01:29:35 PM »
That is astoundingly wrong.

What the author described in that sentence is a Democracy, the rule of the omnipotent majority, and NOT the government established by our Constitution and the Founders.

No one "rules" in the system of government established by the founders, especially the majority.

The Founders set in place a Republic for the purpose of controlling the Majority and to stop them from violating the right of the individuals. By doing that, by protecting the rights of individuals is how all our rights are protected.

Americans are governed by consensus, tempered by existing laws and guided by the respect for individual freedoms, not the whim of the collective.

The will of the people is enshrined in the Constitution and we don't reassess what that will is with every political or social breeze that may blow. We apply the Constitution to each situation and struggle to find that answer which best addresses the right to the individual to his or her own rights.

Americans are not ruled, not even the ones despised by the Majority.

Exactly right on this one Luis! Our founders could not even utter the word "democracy' with spitting afterwards to clear the distaste from they mouths! The universally and rightly hated and greatly feared the very idea of a 'Democracy".

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 02:10:16 PM »
And yet again, obscure fringe sources, claiming the nation should be ruled by Bible verses.

But our founders did NOT put Bible verses in our constitution.

The beauty of our country is that a group can band together, call themselves a religion, adopt a book, vow to live by the verses in the book, providing their actions are legal.

Another beauty of our country is that by law, that same group does NOT posses the legal power, to impose the rules of those verses on the rest of us.

It greatly disappoints some of them, for sure. In the 1800s the Southern Baptist church openly supported slavery. But our civil government overruled them on this matter.

* I would imagine the Southern Baptist  church of the era had Bible verses to support their slavery position. Here is google's first page on the topic

https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=christian+support+for+slavery&oq=biblical+support+for+slavery&gs_l=hp.1.1.0j0i22i30.5579583.5584940.0.5588448.30.21.0.9.9.0.346.2805.1j17j1j1.20.0....0...1c.1.45.hp..3.27.2578.0.vyZv6QL7ZjY
 
Here is an article from the many sources on the list above:

http://historyengine.richmond.edu/episodes/view/3535
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline olde north church

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2014, 09:56:15 AM »
I'm having difficulty expressing this thought.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks.

The religious have always claimed to have a greater stake in the creation of America, therefore a more important(?- not exact word I want) in it's governing.  This isn't the first time, second time, third time or even fourth time religious movements have sought power in greater relation to their numbers.
It's also not the first time pseudo-religions have sought to hold sway over the government.  The Temperance Movement, environmentalism and homosexual rights all have won in the public arena based upon propaganda.
Conservatives should learn to manipulate public opinion so well.
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Offline EC

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2014, 10:00:26 AM »
When you try to legislate morality, it is no longer morality.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 12:54:51 PM »
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 12:55:36 PM by Luis Gonzalez »

Offline olde north church

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2014, 01:58:21 PM »
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2014, 02:37:45 PM »
Anybody that bothers to study the history of religion in the American colonies (and in Britain then) will learn there was plenty of controversy, and that the absence of directives about religion in the final Constitution, Amendments, reflected the view that people should be free to practice religions of their choices, and the state should stay out of it.

"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline Oceander

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2014, 03:45:20 PM »
And if this one judge had upheld the law, would "we" be singing hosannas to how 1 Judge saves the will of the people?

Sorry, but this happens all the time - it is the nature and function of judges - and this weeping and gnashing of teeth is rather unseemly.

In point of fact, it was the Founders who intended that the "Will of the People" be limited, that it be gainsaid by the judiciary when it oversteps the constitutional bounds they created, so this is what the Founders intended, not a denigration of what they intended.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2014, 04:48:36 PM »
And if this one judge had upheld the law, would "we" be singing hosannas to how 1 Judge saves the will of the people?

Sorry, but this happens all the time - it is the nature and function of judges - and this weeping and gnashing of teeth is rather unseemly.

In point of fact, it was the Founders who intended that the "Will of the People" be limited, that it be gainsaid by the judiciary when it oversteps the constitutional bounds they created, so this is what the Founders intended, not a denigration of what they intended.

The primary purpose of a Republic is to stop an Omnipotent majority from violating the rights of the individual as enshrined in the Constitution.

Conservatives and all those who oppose same-sex marriage want to define the Will of the Majority as the founding concept of the nation and Direct Democracy (ballot initiatives and the such) as Conservatism. 

Courts exist to settle contentious arguments, and when they do the winning party extols their wisdom and values while the losing party attacks them as radical violators of the Constitution.

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2014, 07:11:59 PM »
The primary purpose of a Republic is to stop an Omnipotent majority from violating the rights of the individual as enshrined in the Constitution.

Conservatives and all those who oppose same-sex marriage want to define the Will of the Majority as the founding concept of the nation and Direct Democracy (ballot initiatives and the such) as Conservatism. 

Courts exist to settle contentious arguments, and when they do the winning party extols their wisdom and values while the losing party attacks them as radical violators of the Constitution.

The issue of same-sex marriage is worth talking about.  Is it a universal right, or as with other family law issues, one set aside for states to decide?  I think you are operating under the assumption that marriage is a basic human or civil right.  That has yet to work its way through the court system.  Nor do I disagree with your assumptions about the court system.

But opposition to gay marriage comes from different aspects.  The religious right believes that it is antithetical to their beliefs.  Others believe that the slippery slope is real and a potential threat to our culture and social order.  It's not all about trying to deny basic human rights.  It is an issue that cuts through any kind of political conservatism argument. 

Our society is more and more accepting of gay marriage.  As that happens both the courts and political conservatives will follow, albeit probably a tad slower.  The religious right is likely never to accept such arrangements.  So what?  As long as our constitutional structure remains sound, it won't matter a hell of a lot.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2014, 02:07:04 AM »
The issue of same-sex marriage is worth talking about.  Is it a universal right, or as with other family law issues, one set aside for states to decide?  I think you are operating under the assumption that marriage is a basic human or civil right. That has yet to work its way through the court system.  Nor do I disagree with your assumptions about the court system.

But opposition to gay marriage comes from different aspects.  The religious right believes that it is antithetical to their beliefs.  Others believe that the slippery slope is real and a potential threat to our culture and social order.  It's not all about trying to deny basic human rights.  It is an issue that cuts through any kind of political conservatism argument. 

Our society is more and more accepting of gay marriage.  As that happens both the courts and political conservatives will follow, albeit probably a tad slower.  The religious right is likely never to accept such arrangements.  So what?  As long as our constitutional structure remains sound, it won't matter a hell of a lot.

Loving v. Virginia,  388 U.S. 1 (1967). Chief Justice writing for the unanimous Court:

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man'."

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2014, 08:20:43 AM »
Loving v. Virginia,  388 U.S. 1 (1967). Chief Justice writing for the unanimous Court:

"Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man'."

Guess I should have reworded, lol.  But I think you and I both know he was talking about traditional marriage.  Only 5 years later the High Court rejected a gay marriage case for want of a substantial federal issue.  But perhaps it might one day be so considered and anyone or any group will have a right to legal marriage. 
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2014, 09:21:13 AM »
Guess I should have reworded, lol.  But I think you and I both know he was talking about traditional marriage.  Only 5 years later the High Court rejected a gay marriage case for want of a substantial federal issue.  But perhaps it might one day be so considered and anyone or any group will have a right to legal marriage.

When he said that he expanded the meaning of traditional marriage. Black and white marriage wasn't "traditional" at the time and opposed by 70% of the population. 

I think that the idea of "anyone" will have a right to marry anything is just a scare tactic used to boogeyman the issue. I don't ever see this country being so twisted that acceptance of children marrying parents or siblings marrying each other will ever be explore of accepted.

Post Loving, the High Court struck down all existing anti-homosexual laws. Which means that the last resistance against same-sex marriage is based on nothing but a public distaste of a legal activity between consenting adults leading to the denial of the issuance of a license by government. 

That's very shaky legs for an argument to stand on.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 09:24:54 AM by Luis Gonzalez »

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2014, 09:47:21 AM »
When he said that he expanded the meaning of traditional marriage. Black and white marriage wasn't "traditional" at the time and opposed by 70% of the population.

AT the time Luis, very few states still prohibited interracial marriages.  Even southern states permitted it...not all of course.  I know.  In 1966 I couldn't marry in Georgia, but drove across the line to Alabama and it was fine. 

Quote
I think that the idea of "anyone" will have a right to marry anything is just a scare tactic used to boogeyman the issue. I don't ever see this country being so twisted that acceptance of children marrying parents or siblings marrying each other will ever be explore of accepted.

I don't know why it wouldn't work toward that.  Such things fall into the same category as men marrying men.  As culture changes, so then do the views of the courts.  After all, it's either a civil right or it isn't. 

Quote
Post Loving, the High Court struck down all existing anti-homosexual laws. Which means that the last resistance against same-sex marriage is based on nothing but a public distaste of a legal activity between consenting adults leading to the denial of the issuance of a license by government. 

That's very shaky legs for an argument to stand on.

Still it took a redefining of what marriage was, and that can continue to be the case as our culture becomes more and more accepting of what was previously unacceptable.
It's the Supreme Court nominations!

Offline olde north church

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2014, 10:16:15 AM »
There were states which prohibited epileptics from marrying as well.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline MACVSOG68

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2014, 10:19:22 AM »
There were states which prohibited epileptics from marrying as well.

Didn't know that, but not surprised.  Health has always been an issue with respect to marriage.
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Offline olde north church

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2014, 10:22:21 AM »
Didn't know that, but not surprised.  Health has always been an issue with respect to marriage.

And people considered epilepsy to be a form of madness.



Apologies on that tangent though.  But if people can bring in interracial marriage into it, all is fair!
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2014, 10:51:29 AM »
AT the time Luis, very few states still prohibited interracial marriages.  Even southern states permitted it...not all of course.  I know.  In 1966 I couldn't marry in Georgia, but drove across the line to Alabama and it was fine. 

I don't know why it wouldn't work toward that.  Such things fall into the same category as men marrying men.  As culture changes, so then do the views of the courts.  After all, it's either a civil right or it isn't. 

Still it took a redefining of what marriage was, and that can continue to be the case as our culture becomes more and more accepting of what was previously unacceptable.

So, what is your exact objection to the idea of same-sex marriage?

Offline olde north church

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2014, 11:03:24 AM »
So, what is your exact objection to the idea of same-sex marriage?

I'll jump in here, if I may.  Marriage is a sacrament.  Homosexuals want marriage but they don't want the most basic restriction, being between a man and a woman. 
They can play house and perform parodies of fornication but it ain't marriage.  I could have given me own sainted Granny 4 wheels and a trunk but it wouldn't have made her a Buick.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: 1 Judge Overrides Will of the People
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2014, 11:17:42 AM »
I'll jump in here, if I may.  Marriage is a sacrament.  Homosexuals want marriage but they don't want the most basic restriction, being between a man and a woman. 
They can play house and perform parodies of fornication but it ain't marriage.  I could have given me own sainted Granny 4 wheels and a trunk but it wouldn't have made her a Buick.

Marriage is a sacrament for the people who believe that it is a sacrament, and no one who believes that marriage is a sacrament will enter into a same-sex marriage.

Marriage was a sacrament when it was A) for life, and B) entered into it in a Church. A Civil Magistrate lack the ability to enter people into a Holy Union, but we call civil unions "marriages".

It stopped being one when a segment of the people decided that one should be allowed multiple marriages in a life time, and when a divorce became easier to obtain than a bankruptcy.

People today marry less, divorce more when they do and those who do bother to marry do so multiple times, as if marriage was no different than changing jobs.

Soon more babies will be born out of wedlock than out of a marriage, and marriage has been the prize to be won in TV shows.

So you should spend time condemning those who, having the ability to marry, have nearly destroyed the sacrament of marriage more so than attacking those who never having had the ability to actually marry at all, are now being blamed for the destruction of the institution.

It's hypocritical to demand that others abide by a sacrament that by and large we don't pay any attention to.

The slippery slope that found us here was set into motion by us.


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