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Online mystery-ak

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Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« on: May 09, 2014, 09:38:18 AM »
http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=F9C5716D-1FA8-42C3-811D-93A79D4366BF

 Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
By: Jonathan Topaz
May 9, 2014 07:46 AM EDT

Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney on Thursday morning said he supports an increase in the minimum wage, breaking with many Republicans who have stood against it.

“I, for instance, as you know, part company with many of the conservatives in my party on the issue of the minimum wage. I think we ought to raise it,” the 2012 Republican presidential nominee said. “Because frankly, our party is all about more jobs and better pay.”

Romney’s comments come after Senate Republicans rejected a vote on a Senate bill that would have increased the minimum wage to $10.10. Recently, though, former Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty and former Pennsylvania Sen. Rick Santorum, both of whom also ran for the Republican nomination in 2012, said they supported some increase in the minimum wage.



In a wide-ranging interview Thursday on “Morning Joe,” Romney again reiterated that he isn’t running for president, mentioned some of his favorite potential GOP presidential candidates in 2016 and criticized Hillary Clinton’s record as secretary of State.

When asked whether he might run again for president, Romney gave a direct answer. “I’m not running for president in 2016,” he said.

“I think our best prospects of getting back the White House are with someone who has not run twice before as I have,” he added with a smile.

Romney said Republicans have a strong field to choose from in 2016. He mentioned several candidates by name, including his 2012 running mate Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) and New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie.



“You know some of my favorites,” Romney said. “Paul Ryan, of course. I love Paul, we were a great team together. But Chris Christie and Jeb Bush and Rob Portman. The list is long. Scott Walker. There are a lot of fellows and hopefully some women, as well.”

He later singled out New Mexico Gov. Susana Martínez as one of the potential female candidates, praising her “great potential and leadership.”

Romney also criticized Hillary Clinton, who would likely be the presumptive frontrunner for the Democrats if she chooses to run in 2016.

When asked about her time at the State Department, Romney said: “That’s going to be an enormous liability for her. Because this is, after all, the evidence of her leadership capacity. And frankly, the four years that she served as secretary of State were not good years for the United States of America abroad. She worked hard and she shook a lot of hands and people said ‘boy, she’s been on the airplane a lot, and that’s a good thing.’ But if you look around the world … this was not a good time for America.”



He added that Clinton’s record as secretary of State is “going to raise a lot of questions about her capacity to actually accomplish things of significance, particularly on foreign soil.”

Romney also appeared to condone fundraising efforts by the National Republican Congressional Committee and National Republican Senatorial Committee that invoked the September 2012 attacks in Benghazi.

When asked about fundraising off the issue, Romney responded by saying without a GOP majority in the House, there would have been no investigations into Benghazi or the IRS. “So, to say look, elect Republicans so that we can have these kind of investigations, is appropriate,” Romney said.

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Offline Oceander

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2014, 10:10:00 AM »
Did he give a good justification for his view?  Considering his business acumen - which was one of the GOP's big selling points in 2012 - I think we should hear him out and look to his justification/explanation before we start shooting from the hips knee-jerk style; that's best left to the protozoa in the DNC.

Offline Machiavelli

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2014, 06:45:44 PM »
Did he give a good justification for his view?  Considering his business acumen - which was one of the GOP's big selling points in 2012 - I think we should hear him out and look to his justification/explanation before we start shooting from the hips knee-jerk style; that's best left to the protozoa in the DNC.

That's sound advice, Oceander.

Offline Politics4us

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2014, 07:27:29 PM »
He was a disaster as our candidate.

Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2014, 07:36:18 PM »
Did he give a good justification for his view?  Considering his business acumen - which was one of the GOP's big selling points in 2012 - I think we should hear him out and look to his justification/explanation before we start shooting from the hips knee-jerk style; that's best left to the protozoa in the DNC.
Big business types tend to support raising the minimum wage. Few of them actually pay a minimum wage. That's usually the realm of the small businesses. Raising the minimum wage is one way for big business to eliminate competition by raising overhead. The gained profits from cutting off (and redirecting) the competition make up for the increased overhead.
"Just because people in positions of authority are stupid, it doesn’t mean you have to go along with it." —Arlo Guthrie

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2014, 07:37:24 PM »
He was a disaster as our candidate.

Who in your view would have earned more votes than Romney?

Cain? Palin? Bachmann? Santorum?
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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2014, 07:41:32 PM »
Who in your view would have earned more votes than Romney?

Cain? Palin? Bachmann? Santorum?

Clint Eastwood.    :whistle:
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Offline Politics4us

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2014, 07:45:19 PM »
Who in your view would have earned more votes than Romney?

Cain? Palin? Bachmann? Santorum?

Any of them, because Romney got less than Bush or McCain.

Offline raml

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2014, 07:49:29 PM »
Sorry but he is an idiot for wanting to raise the minimum wage. He is looking to see if he can get support to run from the sounds of him lately. He can't ever win he is a loser he didn't fight for it when he had a chance and he was not the best candidate no matter what you moderates think. I will not ever vote for a rhino again ever I will write in a candidate if the gop forces one on us.

Online Fishrrman

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2014, 09:08:18 PM »
He was a disaster as our candidate.
[/quote

Probably would have been a near-disaster as president, as well.

Nowhere near as bad as Obama, of course, but rather a very weak version of G.W. Bush….

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2014, 09:28:12 PM »
Sorry but he is an idiot for wanting to raise the minimum wage. He is looking to see if he can get support to run from the sounds of him lately. He can't ever win he is a loser he didn't fight for it when he had a chance and he was not the best candidate no matter what you moderates think. I will not ever vote for a rhino again ever I will write in a candidate if the gop forces one on us.

He was the candidate voted as the primary winner by Republican voters.  So he was the party's choice, no matter what you think of him.

What a juvenile rant.
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Offline sinkspur

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2014, 09:31:24 PM »
Any of them, because Romney got less than Bush or McCain.


Not true.  Romney got three million more votes than Bush did in 2004, and got more votes in every swing state than McCain, and 84,000 fewer votes in Ohio than McCain.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/19101/popular-vote-2012-romney-actually-got-more-votes-than-bush-in-2004-and-still-lost
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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2014, 09:31:59 PM »
Big business types tend to support raising the minimum wage. Few of them actually pay a minimum wage. That's usually the realm of the small businesses. Raising the minimum wage is one way for big business to eliminate competition by raising overhead. The gained profits from cutting off (and redirecting) the competition make up for the increased overhead.

Bingo!!!


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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2014, 09:34:53 PM »
Sorry but he is an idiot for wanting to raise the minimum wage. He is looking to see if he can get support to run from the sounds of him lately. He can't ever win he is a loser he didn't fight for it when he had a chance and he was not the best candidate no matter what you moderates think. I will not ever vote for a rhino again ever I will write in a candidate if the gop forces one on us.

I will never forgive him for that second debate! He had Obama on the ropes and let him up!

He's done as far as I'm concerned!

Online Bigun

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2014, 09:43:06 PM »
Not true.  Romney got three million more votes than Bush did in 2004, and got more votes in every swing state than McCain, and 84,000 fewer votes in Ohio than McCain.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/19101/popular-vote-2012-romney-actually-got-more-votes-than-bush-in-2004-and-still-lost


In 2012 the democrat incumbent with a horrible record received roughly 8 million less votes than he did in 2008.

Our guy got roughly 3 million less votes than the terrible 2008 candidate for our side did  in 2008.

Had we nominated an actual conservative things might have well been different!
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 09:44:15 PM by Bigun »

Offline sinkspur

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2014, 09:52:32 PM »
In 2012 the democrat incumbent with a horrible record received roughly 8 million less votes than he did in 2008.

Our guy got roughly 3 million less votes than the terrible 2008 candidate for our side did  in 2008.

Had we nominated an actual conservative things might have well been different!

Like who?  Santorum?  Gingrich?  Herman Cain? 

I'm continually amazed at those who think that a candidate who can't win the primaries would somehow win the general election. 

That just doesn't make any sense.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2014, 07:49:24 AM »
Like who?  Santorum?  Gingrich?  Herman Cain? 

I'm continually amazed at those who think that a candidate who can't win the primaries would somehow win the general election. 

That just doesn't make any sense.
Cain did not contest the primaries.
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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2014, 07:50:41 AM »
He was the candidate voted as the primary winner by Republican voters.  So he was the party's choice, no matter what you think of him.

What a juvenile rant.
That's the problem. The party is becoming a smaller and smaller, more and more irrelevant organization that only picks their own corrupt insiders. Have you seen the party affiliation polls? Republicans are plummeting. Independents are soaring.
"Just because people in positions of authority are stupid, it doesn’t mean you have to go along with it." —Arlo Guthrie

"In the excitement of great popular elections, deciding the policy of the country, and its vast patronage, frauds will be committed, if a chance is given for them." —Richard Henry Dana, Jr.

“No government program ever dies of its own accord.” ―unknown

Offline Oceander

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Re: Mitt Romney: Raise the minimum wage
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2014, 09:47:04 AM »
Big business types tend to support raising the minimum wage. Few of them actually pay a minimum wage. That's usually the realm of the small businesses. Raising the minimum wage is one way for big business to eliminate competition by raising overhead. The gained profits from cutting off (and redirecting) the competition make up for the increased overhead.

There is a counter-argument to be made in favor of the minimum wage, at least in principle:  the additional transaction costs associated with a minimum wage are less than the transaction costs associated with the lack of such a wage, particularly those flowing from unionization.  That, by itself, doesn't tell us how high or low a minimum wage should be, but it does mean that a legally-mandated minimum wage is a good thing to have.

The bottom line is that raising the minimum wage is only worth the while if the additional costs it imposes are still less than those imposed by what would happen in the absence of any minimum wage.  That determination cannot be made using general principles but is wholly fact-dependent.  Thus, whether it's a good idea to raise the minimum wage to $10.10 requires justification based on the current facts and circumstances and an analysis of the effects of that higher minimum wage relative to the costs of having no minimum wage at all.  And for that we cannot evaluate Romney's statement unless we know his underlying justification for that statement.

Every employment transaction - the exchange of labor for consideration in the marketplace - requires agreement on the compensation to be paid, and that in turn requires negotiation.  For most employment situations that process in and of itself doesn't prevent any significant number of such transactions.  This follows, in part, because the information asymmetry between the seller of labor and the buyer of labor is not particularly significant; it exists, but has more to do with the would-be employer's actual labor needs (e.g., whether the position will end up entailing work that has little to do with the position as advertised), and less to do with the value of the labor (i.e., the compensation the hypothetical employer, under no compulsion to hire, is willing to pay), which is generally well-known and, in any event, because the would-be employee has skills that are in relative scarce supply, the employee's threat to walk away has teeth (relative, for example, to the skill-set possessed by unskilled people, which are largely the same skills everyone possesses no matter how highly educated or skilled otherwise).

However, for employment situations at the low(er) end of the economic spectrum, e.g., the employment of relatively unskilled, inexperienced individuals in so-called entry-level positions, the transactional costs involved may be high enough to prevent a significant number of otherwise good transactions.  Furthermore, the relative bargaining power of the would-be employee is so minimal compared to that of the would-be employee that the employee's participation may be only quasi-voluntary.

A typical response to that asymmetry is unionization.  However, as has been amply demonstrated by reality, unionization, particularly when coupled with government intervention, ends up creating substantial inefficiencies, and engenders substantial rent-seeking behaviour by unions and union members.  Unionization also creates greater unemployment on its own because (a) the benefits of unionization aren't enjoyed equally by all similarly-situated individuals - those who have not, or cannot, unionize are put at a disadvantage and in fact may be barred from employment altogether where closed shop unions operate; and (b) the rent-seeking behaviour unions engage in results in an inefficient allocation of capital as union members are able to force employers to pay more than the actual market value of the members' labor - which means that there is less capital left over to hire non-unionized individuals at prevailing market rates.  Finally, unionization, particularly where the government intervenes to favor unions over employers, creates substantial bargaining asymmetry - this time in favor of the employees over the employer, and can make the employer's participation in the market for labor only quasi-voluntary:  the employer may be - nay, often is - forced to employ a significant number of individuals it would never voluntarily employ.

Setting a minimum wage obviates the need to negotiate a wage for each employee and puts a limit to the bargaining asymmetry that favors the employer.  A minimum wage also reduces the market incentive to unionize, thereby reducing the economic costs of rent-seeking activity by unions.  It also results in a more equitable distribution of the benefit amongst all similarly-situated individuals because it doesn't depend on the accident of membership, or not, in some particular organization.  By doing so, a minimum wage reduces one of the bigger transaction costs that hinders the efficient market exchange of labor for compensation.

Of course, since a legal minimum wage is also an instance of government interference in/distortion of the market, it brings its own set of transaction costs.  That cost is basically the number of foregone employments where an individual cannot find employment because the market value of that individual's skills is less than the minimum wage.

On balance, however, the costs created by a government-imposed minimum wage should be less than those created by unionization because a minimum wage creates much less rent-seeking behaviour - for example, an employer cannot be forced to employ individuals it would never voluntarily employ - and because  a minimum wage results in less additional unemployment than does unionization because it (a) causes less misallocation of capital than does unionization (e.g., by reducing the amount of rent-seeking by employees) and (b) applies to all employees equally, reducing the unequal advantage enjoyed by some employees over other employees.

Given this, the real issue raised by a legally-mandated minimum wage is not whether it exists at all, but the appropriate level to set it at.  If the minimum wage is significantly higher than the overall market value of the labor in question, then it starts to impose transaction costs approaching the same imposed by unionization.  If it's set significantly lower than the overall market value of that labor, then it reinforces the same transaction costs that engendered unionization because it fails to significantly reduce the need for each individual to negotiate wages, and increases the bargaining asymmetry in favor of the employer because there is little incentive for an employer to bid higher than that minimum wage for the labor of its employees.


There are plenty of other areas of economic life where a similar cost-benefit situation exists - where the costs associated with the government's interference in the market are outweighed by the costs caused by the problems of price discovery and other informational transaction costs and the problems of bargaining power asymmetry.

For example, the original FDA was a reasonable response to the transaction costs associated with a "natural" market in food and drugs.  How so?  Because without those original FDA standards and their enforcement, every buyer of food or drugs would have to either (a) carry a chemical-testing kit with them to determine in each instance whether the food/drug being offered for sale contains adulterants that buyer does not wish to pay for, or (b) take the risk that any such adulterants will make him/her sick, requiring him/her to either incur additional costs by having to pay for medical care or pay for insurance against any such costs.  The original FDA, by requiring disclosure of the ingredients of food/drugs offered for sale and prohibiting the addition of certain types of adulterants - those which can cause serious illness but are hard to discover at the time of purchase - certainly increased the cost of food and drugs, thereby preventing some otherwise economically efficient transactions, but the loss of those transactions was outweighed by the transaction costs arising in an unregulated market for food/drugs.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 09:53:57 AM by Oceander »


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