Author Topic: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'  (Read 3288 times)

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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2014, 05:58:36 am »
A Grand Strategy of Transformation
John Lewis Gaddis

It's an interesting reflection on our democratic age that nations are now expected to publish their grand strategies before pursuing them. This practice would have surprised Metternich, Bismarck, and Lord Salisbury, though not Pericles. Concerned about not revealing too much, most great strategists in the past have preferred to concentrate on implementation, leaving explanation to historians. The first modern departure from this tradition came in 1947 when George F. Kennan revealed the rationale for containment in Foreign Affairs under the inadequately opaque pseudonym "Mr. X," but Kennan regretted the consequences and did not repeat the experiment. Not until the Nixon administration did official statements of national security strategy became routine. Despite his reputation for secrecy, Henry Kissinger's "State of the World" reports were remarkably candid and comprehensive—so much so that they were widely regarded at the time as a clever form of disinformation. They did, though, revive the Periclean precedent that in a democracy even grand strategy is a matter for public discussion.

That precedent became law with the Goldwater-Nichols Department of Defense Reorganization Act of 1986, which required the president to report regularly to Congress and the American people on national security strategy (NSS) [see sidebar]. The results since have been disappointing. The Reagan, Bush, and Clinton administrations all issued NSS reports, but these tended to be restatements of existing positions, cobbled together by committees, blandly worded, and quickly forgotten. None sparked significant public debate.

George W. Bush's report on "The National Security Strategy of the United States of America," released on September 17, 2002, has stirred controversy, though, and surely will continue to do so. For it's not only the first strategy statement of a new administration; it's also the first since the surprise attacks of September 11, 2001. Such attacks are fortunately rare in American history—the only analogies are the British burning of the White House and Capitol in 1814 and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941—but they have one thing in common: they prepare the way for new grand strategies by showing that old ones have failed. The Bush NSS, therefore, merits a careful reading as a guide to what's to come.

What the NSS Says

Beginnings, in such documents, tell you a lot. The Bush NSS, echoing the president's speech at West Point on June 1, 2002, sets three tasks: "We will defend the peace by fighting terrorists and tyrants. We will preserve the peace by building good relations among the great powers. We will extend the peace by encouraging free and open societies on every continent." It's worth comparing these goals with the three the Clinton administration put forth in its final NSS, released in December 1999: "To enhance America's security. To bolster America's economic prosperity. To promote democracy and human rights abroad."

The differences are revealing. The Bush objectives speak of defending, preserving, and extending peace; the Clinton statement seems simply to assume peace. Bush calls for cooperation among great powers; Clinton never uses that term. Bush specifies the encouragement of free and open societies on every continent; Clinton contents himself with "promoting" democracy and human rights "abroad." Even in these first few lines, then, the Bush NSS comes across as more forceful, more carefully crafted, and—unexpectedly—more multilateral than its immediate predecessor. It's a tip-off that there're interesting things going on here.

The first major innovation is Bush's equation of terrorists with tyrants as sources of danger, an obvious outgrowth of September 11. American strategy in the past, he notes, has concentrated on defense against tyrants. Those adversaries required "great armies and great industrial capabilities"—resources only states could provide—to threaten U.S. interests. But now, "shadowy networks of individuals can bring great chaos and suffering to our shores for less than it costs to purchase a single tank." The strategies that won the Cold War—containment and deterrence—won't work against such dangers, because those strategies assumed the existence of identifiable regimes led by identifiable leaders operating by identifiable means from identifiable territories. How, though, do you contain a shadow? How do you deter someone who's prepared to commit suicide?

There've always been anarchists, assassins, and saboteurs operating without obvious sponsors, and many of them have risked their lives in doing so. Their actions have rarely shaken the stability of states or societies, however, because the number of victims they've targeted and the amount of physical damage they've caused have been relatively small. September 11 showed that terrorists can now inflict levels of destruction that only states wielding military power used to be able to accomplish. Weapons of mass destruction were the last resort for those possessing them during the Cold War, the NSS points out. "Today, our enemies see weapons of mass destruction as weapons of choice." That elevates terrorists to the level of tyrants in Bush's thinking, and that's why he insists that preemption must be added to—though not necessarily in all situations replace—the tasks of containment and deterrence: "We cannot let our enemies strike first."

The NSS is careful to specify a legal basis for preemption: international law recognizes "that nations need not suffer an attack before they can lawfully take action to defend themselves against forces that present an imminent danger of attack." There's also a preference for preempting multilaterally: "The United States will constantly strive to enlist the support of the international community." But "we will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting preemptively against such terrorists, to prevent them from doing harm against our people and our country."

Preemption in turn requires hegemony. Although Bush speaks, in his letter of transmittal, of creating "a balance of power that favors human freedom" while forsaking "unilateral advantage," the body of the NSS makes it clear that "our forces will be strong enough to dissuade potential adversaries from pursuing a military build-up in hopes of surpassing, or equaling, the power of the United States." The West Point speech put it more bluntly: "America has, and intends to keep, military strengths beyond challenge." The president has at last approved, therefore, Paul Wolfowitz's controversial recommendation to this effect, made in a 1992 "Defense Planning Guidance" draft subsequently leaked to the press and then disavowed by the first Bush administration. It's no accident that Wolfowitz, as deputy secretary of defense, has been at the center of the new Bush administration's strategic planning.

How, though, will the rest of the world respond to American hegemony? That gets us to another innovation in the Bush strategy, which is its emphasis on cooperation among the great powers. There's a striking contrast here with Clinton's focus on justice for small powers. The argument also seems at odds, at first glance, with maintaining military strength beyond challenge, for don't the weak always unite to oppose the strong? In theory, yes, but in practice and in history, not necessarily. Here the Bush team seems to have absorbed some pretty sophisticated political science, for one of the issues that discipline has been wrestling with recently is why there's still no anti-American coalition despite the overwhelming dominance of the United States since the end of the Cold War.

Bush suggested two explanations in his West Point speech, both of which most political scientists—not all—would find plausible. The first is that other great powers prefer management of the international system by a single hegemon as long as it's a relatively benign one. When there's only one superpower, there's no point for anyone else to try to compete with it in military capabilities. International conflict shifts to trade rivalries and other relatively minor quarrels, none of them worth fighting about. Compared with what great powers have done to one another in the past, this state of affairs is no bad thing.

U.S. hegemony is also acceptable because it's linked with certain values that all states and cultures—if not all terrorists and tyrants—share. As the NSS puts it: "No people on earth yearn to be oppressed, aspire to servitude, or eagerly await the midnight knock of the secret police." It's this association of power with universal principles, Bush argues, that will cause other great powers to go along with whatever the United States has to do to preempt terrorists and tyrants, even if it does so alone. For, as was the case through most of the Cold War, there's something worse out there than American hegemony.

The final innovation in the Bush strategy deals with the longer-term issue of removing the causes of terrorism and tyranny. Here, again, the president's thinking parallels an emerging consensus within the academic community. For it's becoming clear now that poverty wasn't what caused a group of middle-class and reasonably well-educated Middle Easterners to fly three airplanes into buildings and another into the ground. It was, rather, resentments growing out of the absence of representative institutions in their own societies, so that the only outlet for political dissidence was religious fanaticism.

Hence, Bush insists, the ultimate goal of U.S. strategy must be to spread democracy everywhere. The United States must finish the job that Woodrow Wilson started. The world, quite literally, must be made safe for democracy, even those parts of it, like the Middle East, that have so far resisted that tendency. Terrorism—and by implication the authoritarianism that breeds it—must become as obsolete as slavery, piracy, or genocide: "behavior that no respectable government can condone or support and that all must oppose."

The Bush NSS, therefore, differs in several ways from its recent predecessors. First, it's proactive. It rejects the Clinton administration's assumption that since the movement toward democracy and market economics had become irreversible in the post-Cold War era, all the United States had to do was "engage" with the rest of the world to "enlarge" those processes. Second, its parts for the most part interconnect. There's a coherence in the Bush strategy that the Clinton national security team—notable for its simultaneous cultivation and humiliation of Russia—never achieved. Third, Bush's analysis of how hegemony works and what causes terrorism is in tune with serious academic thinking, despite the fact that many academics haven't noticed this yet. Fourth, the Bush administration, unlike several of its predecessors, sees no contradiction between power and principles. It is, in this sense, thoroughly Wilsonian. Finally, the new strategy is candid. This administration speaks plainly, at times eloquently, with no attempt to be polite or diplomatic or "nuanced." What you hear and what you read is pretty much what you can expect to get.

What the NSS Doesn't Say

There are, however, some things that you won't hear or read, probably by design. The Bush NSS has, if not a hidden agenda, then at least one the administration isn't advertising. It has to do with why the administration regards tyrants, in the post-September 11 world, as at least as dangerous as terrorists.

Bush tried to explain the connection in his January 2002 State of the Union address when he warned of an "axis of evil" made up of Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. The phrase confused more than it clarified, though, since Saddam Hussein, the Iranian mullahs, and Kim Jong Il are hardly the only tyrants around, nor are their ties to one another evident. Nor was it clear why containment and deterrence would not work against these tyrants, since they're all more into survival than suicide. Their lifestyles tend more toward palaces than caves.

Both the West Point speech and the NSS are silent on the "axis of evil." The phrase, it now appears, reflected overzealous speechwriting rather than careful thought. It was an ill-advised effort to make the president sound, simultaneously, like Franklin D. Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan, and it's now been given a quiet burial. This administration corrects its errors, even if it doesn't admit them.

That, though, raises a more important question: Why, having buried the "axis of evil," is Bush still so keen on burying Saddam Hussein? Especially since the effort to do so might provoke him into using the weapons of last resort that he's so far not used? It patronizes the administration to seek explanations in filial obligation. Despite his comment that this is "a guy that tried to kill my dad," George W. Bush is no Hamlet, agonizing over how to meet a tormented parental ghost's demands for revenge. Shakespeare might still help, though, if you shift the analogy to Henry V. That monarch understood the psychological value of victory—of defeating an adversary sufficiently thoroughly that you shatter the confidence of others, so that they'll roll over themselves before you have to roll over them.

For Henry, the demonstration was Agincourt, the famous victory over the French in 1415. The Bush administration got a taste of Agincourt with its victory over the Taliban at the end of 2001, to which the Afghans responded by gleefully shaving their beards, shedding their burkas, and cheering the infidels—even to the point of lending them horses from which they laser-marked bomb targets. Suddenly, it seemed, American values were transportable, even to the remotest and most alien parts of the earth. The vision that opened up was not one of the clash among civilizations we'd been led to expect, but rather, as the NSS puts it, a clash "inside a civilization, a battle for the future of the Muslim world."

How, though, to maintain the momentum, given that the Taliban is no more and that al Qaeda isn't likely to present itself as a conspicuous target? This, I think, is where Saddam Hussein comes in: Iraq is the most feasible place where we can strike the next blow. If we can topple this tyrant, if we can repeat the Afghan Agincourt on the banks of the Euphrates, then we can accomplish a great deal. We can complete the task the Gulf War left unfinished. We can destroy whatever weapons of mass destruction Saddam Hussein may have accumulated since. We can end whatever support he's providing for terrorists elsewhere, notably those who act against Israel. We can liberate the Iraqi people. We can ensure an ample supply of inexpensive oil. We can set in motion a process that could undermine and ultimately remove reactionary regimes elsewhere in the Middle East, thereby eliminating the principal breeding ground for terrorism. And, as President Bush did say publicly in a powerful speech to the United Nations on September 12, 2002, we can save that organization from the irrelevance into which it will otherwise descend if its resolutions continue to be contemptuously disregarded.

If I'm right about this, then it's a truly grand strategy. What appears at first glance to be a lack of clarity about who's deterrable and who's not turns out, upon closer examination, to be a plan for transforming the entire Muslim Middle East: for bringing it, once and for all, into the modern world. There's been nothing like this in boldness, sweep, and vision since Americans took it upon themselves, more than half a century ago, to democratize Germany and Japan, thus setting in motion processes that stopped short of only a few places on earth, one of which was the Muslim Middle East.

Can It Work?

The honest answer is that no one knows. We've had examples in the past of carefully crafted strategies failing: most conspicuously, the Nixon-Kissinger attempt, during the early 1970s, to bring the Soviet Union within the international system of satisfied states. We've had examples of carelessly improvised strategies succeeding: The Clinton administration accomplished this feat in Kosovo in 1999. The greatest theorist of strategy, Carl von Clausewitz, repeatedly emphasized the role of chance, which can at times defeat the best of designs and at other times hand victory to the worst of them. For this reason, he insisted, theory can never really predict what's going to happen.

Does this mean, though, that there's nothing we can say? That all we can do is cross our fingers, hope for the best, and wait for the historians to tell us why whatever happened was bound to happen? I don't think so, for reasons that relate, rather mundanely, to transportation. Before airplanes take off—and, these days, before trains leave their terminals—the mechanics responsible for them look for cracks, whether in the wings, the tail, the landing gear, or on the Acela the yaw dampers. These reveal the stresses produced while moving the vehicle from where it is to where it needs to go. If undetected, they can lead to disaster. That's why inspections—checking for cracks—are routine in the transportation business. I wonder if they ought not to be in the strategy business as well. The potential stresses I see in the Bush grand strategy—the possible sources of cracks—are as follows:

Multitasking | Critics as unaccustomed to agreeing with one another as Brent Scowcroft and Al Gore have warned against diversion from the war on terrorism if the United States takes on Saddam Hussein. The principle involved here—deal with one enemy at a time—is a sound one. But plenty of successful strategies have violated it. An obvious example is Roosevelt's decision to fight simultaneous wars against Germany and Japan between 1941 and 1945. Another is Kennan's strategy of containment, which worked by deterring the Soviet Union while reviving democracy and capitalism in Western Europe and Japan. The explanation, in both instances, was that these were wars on different fronts against the same enemy: authoritarianism and the conditions that produced it.

The Bush administration sees its war against terrorists and tyrants in much the same way. The problem is not that Saddam Hussein is actively supporting al Qaeda, however much the Bush team would like to prove that. It's rather that authoritarian regimes throughout the Middle East support terrorism indirectly by continuing to produce generations of underemployed, unrepresented, and therefore radicalizable young people from whom Osama bin Laden and others like him draw their recruits.

Bush has, to be sure, enlisted authoritarian allies in his war against terrorism—for the moment. So did Roosevelt when he welcomed the Soviet Union's help in the war against Nazi Germany and imperial Japan. But the Bush strategy has long-term as well as immediate implications, and these do not assume indefinite reliance on regimes like those that currently run Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Pakistan. Reliance on Yasir Arafat has already ended.

The welcome | These plans depend critically, however, on our being welcomed in Baghdad if we invade, as we were in Kabul. If we aren't, the whole strategy collapses, because it's premised on the belief that ordinary Iraqis will prefer an American occupation over the current conditions in which they live. There's no evidence that the Bush administration is planning the kind of military commitments the United States made in either of the two world wars, or even in Korea and Vietnam. This strategy relies on getting cheered, not shot at.

Who's to say, for certain, that this will or won't happen? A year ago, Afghanistan seemed the least likely place in which invaders could expect cheers, and yet they got them. It would be foolish to conclude from this experience, though, that it will occur everywhere. John F. Kennedy learned that lesson when, recalling successful interventions in Iran and Guatemala, he authorized the failed Bay of Pigs landings in Cuba. The trouble with Agincourts—even those that happen in Afghanistan—is the arrogance they can encourage, along with the illusion that victory itself is enough and that no follow-up is required. It's worth remembering that, despite Henry V, the French never became English.

Maintaining the moral high ground | It's difficult to quantify the importance of this, but why should we need to? Just war theory has been around since St. Augustine. Our own Declaration of Independence invoked a decent respect for the opinions of humankind. Richard Overy's fine history of World War II devotes an entire chapter to the Allies' triumph in what he calls "the moral contest." Kennedy rejected a surprise attack against Soviet missiles in Cuba because he feared losing the moral advantage: Pearl Harbor analogies were enough to sink plans for preemption in a much more dangerous crisis than Americans face now. The Bush NSS acknowledges the multiplier effects of multilateralism: "no nation can build a safer, better world alone." These can hardly be gained through unilateral action unless that action itself commands multilateral support.

The Bush team assumes we'll have the moral high ground, and hence multilateral support, if we're cheered and not shot at when we go into Baghdad and other similar places. No doubt they're right about that. They're seeking U.N. authorization for such a move and may well get it. Certainly, they'll have the consent of the U.S. Congress. For there lies behind their strategy an incontestable moral claim: that in some situations preemption is preferable to doing nothing. Who would not have preempted Hitler or Milosevic or Mohammed Atta, if given the chance?

Will Iraq seem such a situation, though, if we're not cheered in Baghdad? Can we count on multilateral support if things go badly? Here the Bush administration has not been thinking ahead. It's been dividing its own moral multipliers through its tendency to behave, on an array of multilateral issues ranging from the Kyoto Protocol to the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty to the International Criminal Court, like a sullen, pouting, oblivious, and overmuscled teenager. As a result, it's depleted the reservoir of support from allies it ought to have in place before embarking on such a high-risk strategy.

There are, to be sure, valid objections to these and other initiatives the administration doesn't like. But it's made too few efforts to use diplomacy—by which I mean tact—to express these complaints. Nor has it tried to change a domestic political culture that too often relishes having the United States stand defiantly alone. The Truman administration understood that the success of containment abroad required countering isolationism at home. The Bush administration hasn't yet made that connection between domestic politics and grand strategy. That's its biggest failure of leadership so far.

The Bush strategy depends ultimately on not standing defiantly alone—just the opposite, indeed, for it claims to be pursuing values that, as the NSS puts it, are "true for every person, in every society." So this crack especially needs fixing before this vehicle departs for its intended destination. A nation that sets itself up as an example to the world in most things will not achieve that purpose by telling the rest of the world, in some things, to shove it.

What It Means?

Despite these problems, the Bush strategy is right on target with respect to the new circumstances confronting the United States and its allies in the wake of September 11. It was sufficient, throughout the Cold War, to contain without seeking to reform authoritarian regimes: we left it to the Soviet Union to reform itself. The most important conclusion of the Bush NSS is that this Cold War assumption no longer holds. The intersection of radicalism with technology the world witnessed on that terrible morning means that the persistence of authoritarianism anywhere can breed resentments that can provoke terrorism that can do us grievous harm. There is a compellingly realistic reason now to complete the idealistic task Woodrow Wilson began more than eight decades ago: the world must be made safe for democracy, because otherwise democracy will not be safe in the world.

The Bush NSS report could be, therefore, the most important reformulation of U.S. grand strategy in over half a century. The risks are great—though probably no more than those confronting the architects of containment as the Cold War began. The pitfalls are plentiful—there are cracks to attend to before this vehicle departs for its intended destination. There's certainly no guarantee of success—but as Clausewitz would have pointed out, there never is in anything that's worth doing.

We'll probably never know for sure what bin Laden and his gang hoped to achieve with the horrors they perpetrated on September 11, 2001. One thing seems clear, though: it can hardly have been to produce this document, and the new grand strategy of transformation that is contained within it.

John Lewis Gaddis is the Robert A. Lovett professor of military and naval history at Yale University, and author, most recently, of The Landscape of History: How Historians Map the Past (New York: Oxford University Press, 2002).
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

rangerrebew

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2014, 11:15:17 am »
She's clearly a well educated and intelligent human being......  **nononono*

Perhaps she just got freaked out by Y2K and slept through the change of the millennium.....

Is she related to Dem. Rep. Hank Johnson who is concerned about the possibility that Guam might tip over if too many troops are put on one side? :thud:

Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2014, 01:12:25 pm »
What we achieved was freeing millions while at the same time acquiring what amounted to a huge staging area for US troops at a time when we weren't really sure where the next strike against the US would come from.

The presence of nearly 250,000 battle-hardened US troops on the ground in Iraq was a serious deterrent for the Islamic regimes in the area.

It's difficult to thank people for things that never happened, but it is my heart-felt belief that the mere prresence of US troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan is responsible for many things that never happened, so I thank them.

Amen and AMEN!!

THANK you, Luis!
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2014, 01:21:59 pm »
What exactly do you think we achieved other than removing Saddam from power? We certainly didn't achieve stability or peace in the Middle East. Yeah, actually I was on the ground, and I did see children freed from a dictator. I've also seen the body parts of children strewn all over the road because of U.S attacks. I've seen children dying in misery and immense pain, completely confused and having almost no understanding of what is going on or why this has happened to them. I've seen 50 cal gunners murder an entire family because their vehicle was a little too suspicious and moving a little too quickly towards our checkpoint. I've seen children crying in the arms of their dead parents, and cursing the people that did this to them. The world is not black and white, and war is never glorious.

During the years 2003-2009 we had an ALLY in the center of the ME instead of a brutal dictator who was AT WAR with America.  When our son was there in 2008 (he volunteered for a second deployment.....the photo I removed was from his first deployment atop Saddam's ruined palace), and he was in the belly of the beast (East Baghdad) working daily one-on-one with the Iraqi people, he found out first hand that they trusted and respected the US soldiers.  It was their own military they didn't trust. 

You are completely WRONG about what a positive effect our rescuing the Iraqi people from terror had on them.

If all you look at is the numbers given to you by the left, you will never understand that there is another side to the story.

And the absolute naivte and condescension of your saying "war is never glorious" is remarkable.

The people who understand most of all how "inglorious" war is are the families (and if I might be so personal, the MOTHERS) of those who have served and risked their lives so that YOU might live in a safer, more secure world.

I'm going to let the rest of your arrogance slide.  THIS time.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2014, 01:29:01 pm »
There could have been stability, but we quit. The war did what it was supposed to do. It toppled Saddam, and it took away the safe haven for Al Qaeda, who were threatening us and all of our allies. Then we gave Iraq back to the enemy. But let's not confuse what the war did and what we did after we won it.

Absolutely!

Our troops had achieved what they went to do.

OBAMA gave Iraq back to the enemy.

And OBAMA is the reason the ME is in even more turmoil than it was when he was elected.

Our troops are a stabilizing force wherever they go...........to a lesser degree if they are bound and gagged by leftist ROA on the battlefield, but what this Dex fellow is saying is that our troops are NOT a stabilizing force, and I strongly resent that implication.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Bigun

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2014, 02:15:54 pm »
What exactly do you think we achieved other than removing Saddam from power? We certainly didn't achieve stability or peace in the Middle East. Yeah, actually I was on the ground, and I did see children freed from a dictator. I've also seen the body parts of children strewn all over the road because of U.S attacks. I've seen children dying in misery and immense pain, completely confused and having almost no understanding of what is going on or why this has happened to them. I've seen 50 cal gunners murder an entire family because their vehicle was a little too suspicious and moving a little too quickly towards our checkpoint. I've seen children crying in the arms of their dead parents, and cursing the people that did this to them. The world is not black and white, and war is never glorious.

We accomplished one hell of a lot and would have accomplished a hell of a lot more had we continued to have leadership that believed in what we had done and had the guts to follow the policy through to the end!

(The above written before I read the rest of the posts on the thread below the one I responded to and noticed that the subject had already been dealt with quite effectively.)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 02:21:17 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2014, 03:01:10 pm »
We accomplished one hell of a lot and would have accomplished a hell of a lot more had we continued to have leadership that believed in what we had done and had the guts to follow the policy through to the end!

(The above written before I read the rest of the posts on the thread below the one I responded to and noticed that the subject had already been dealt with quite effectively.)

It never hurts to have another voice speaking TRUTH, Bigun!  :patriot:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Dexter

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2014, 03:06:04 pm »
During the years 2003-2009 we had an ALLY in the center of the ME instead of a brutal dictator who was AT WAR with America.  When our son was there in 2008 (he volunteered for a second deployment.....the photo I removed was from his first deployment atop Saddam's ruined palace), and he was in the belly of the beast (East Baghdad) working daily one-on-one with the Iraqi people, he found out first hand that they trusted and respected the US soldiers.  It was their own military they didn't trust. 

You are completely WRONG about what a positive effect our rescuing the Iraqi people from terror had on them.

If all you look at is the numbers given to you by the left, you will never understand that there is another side to the story.

And the absolute naivte and condescension of your saying "war is never glorious" is remarkable.

The people who understand most of all how "inglorious" war is are the families (and if I might be so personal, the MOTHERS) of those who have served and risked their lives so that YOU might live in a safer, more secure world.

I'm going to let the rest of your arrogance slide.  THIS time.

Many different soldiers saw and experienced many different things during their deployments. The things I saw led me to wonder why the war in Iraq needed to happen in the first place. It made me question if all of the death and suffering was worth whatever it is that we think we accomplished there. Me and my guys had civilians spit at and curse at us pretty routinely. Some of them did respect us and cared for our presence, but many didn't. By destroying the homes of innocent people, killing families and causing chaos I believe we were creating the terror that we were trying so hard to prevent. How many young people experienced horror because of U.S occupation? How many of those young people that lost everything allied with the terrorists as a direct result of our actions? Terrorists killed over 3000 people on 9/11, and in response we killed tens of thousands of civilians from a country that wasn't even involved. Is the loss of their lives not a horrible tragedy as well?

How is me saying "War is never glorious" arrogant or condescending? It's not glorious, and it is something we should use as an absolute last resort. There's nothing poetic or good about people murdering each other. It's a sad reality of the violent and cruel world that we all live in.

Sorry, I didn't mean to delegitimize the sacrifices you have made.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2014, 03:14:17 pm »
Absolutely!

Our troops had achieved what they went to do.

OBAMA gave Iraq back to the enemy.

And OBAMA is the reason the ME is in even more turmoil than it was when he was elected.

Our troops are a stabilizing force wherever they go...........to a lesser degree if they are bound and gagged by leftist ROA on the battlefield, but what this Dex fellow is saying is that our troops are NOT a stabilizing force, and I strongly resent that implication.

Were we supposed to permanently occupy Iraq? The "stability" was completely reliant on our presence there. I never said the troops are not a stabilizing force, but we are a temporary stabilizing force. Iraq and Afghanistan needed to become self reliant.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:14:45 pm by Dex4974 »
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Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2014, 03:19:57 pm »
Many different soldiers saw and experienced many different things during their deployments. The things I saw led me to wonder why the war in Iraq needed to happen in the first place. It made me question if all of the death and suffering was worth whatever it is that we think we accomplished there. Me and my guys had civilians spit at and curse at us pretty routinely. Some of them did respect us and cared for our presence, but many didn't. By destroying the homes of innocent people, killing families and causing chaos I believe we were creating the terror that we were trying so hard to prevent. How many young people experienced horror because of U.S occupation? How many of those young people that lost everything allied with the terrorists as a direct result of our actions? Terrorists killed over 3000 people on 9/11, and in response we killed tens of thousands of civilians from a country that wasn't even involved. Is the loss of their lives not a horrible tragedy as well?

How is me saying "War is never glorious" arrogant or condescending? It's not glorious, and it is something we should use as an absolute last resort. There's nothing poetic or good about people murdering each other. It's a sad reality of the violent and cruel world that we all live in.

Sorry, I didn't mean to delegitimize the sacrifices you have made.

Saying "war is never glorious" to families of those who have sacrificed, is as condescending as condescension gets.  Who, exactly, do you think believes that war is glorious??  Have you seen any Pattons around here?  Were there any words from anyone supporting the Iraq war here that made you think we were all fools??

Our son's experience was unique, and late in the successful part of the war, and his role in PsyOp unique because he actually spoke one on one with many, many Iraqi people.......... something that you, if you indeed did serve, most likely didn't experience.

But he also saw all the ugliness that you saw, because that's what war is all about.  It's never been pretty, son. NEVER.   But it was not our soldiers killing Iraqi children.  It was the terrorists.  It was al Sadr's thugs.  While we were rebuilding swimming pools and electrical grids, the ENEMY was killing Iraqis.

And in this particular war, we created an ally in the dead center of a very dangerous region, and while we had a real CinC, it was far more stable.  Our troops, as Luis referred to earlier, created an imposing presence, and our strength kept many countries in check.

Now we are weak and flaccid, and things have fallen apart.

As for most of the rest of your words, you are spouting leftist theory that our actions created more terrorism.  It drew the terrorists to Iraq, where our troops defeated them.

Once again, it's disturbing to be arguing with someone who agrees with the idiot congresswoman this thread is about.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2014, 03:24:29 pm »
Were we supposed to permanently occupy Iraq? The "stability" was completely reliant on our presence there. I never said the troops are not a stabilizing force, but we are a temporary stabilizing force. Iraq and Afghanistan needed to become self reliant.

We're still in Germany and Japan, aren't we?

A very small footprint would have helped keep them stable.  Removing forces entirely as Obama did, created chaos.

Obama removed all our troops for his own political leftist cronies, and destroyed what we had accomplished.

Afghanistan is a different discussion because they're tribal, live in the middle ages, and the probability that they will ever live without war, near zero.

We're talking about Iraq here, and how a leftist "CinC" destroyed what our military had accomplished in the center of the ME, and how you are defending the words of this ditzy leftist congresswoman, who doesn't even know what century it is..
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Bigun

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2014, 03:29:35 pm »
Many different soldiers saw and experienced many different things during their deployments. The things I saw led me to wonder why the war in Iraq needed to happen in the first place. It made me question if all of the death and suffering was worth whatever it is that we think we accomplished there. Me and my guys had civilians spit at and curse at us pretty routinely. Some of them did respect us and cared for our presence, but many didn't. By destroying the homes of innocent people, killing families and causing chaos I believe we were creating the terror that we were trying so hard to prevent. How many young people experienced horror because of U.S occupation? How many of those young people that lost everything allied with the terrorists as a direct result of our actions? Terrorists killed over 3000 people on 9/11, and in response we killed tens of thousands of civilians from a country that wasn't even involved. Is the loss of their lives not a horrible tragedy as well?

How is me saying "War is never glorious" arrogant or condescending? It's not glorious, and it is something we should use as an absolute last resort. There's nothing poetic or good about people murdering each other. It's a sad reality of the violent and cruel world that we all live in.

Sorry, I didn't mean to delegitimize the sacrifices you have made.

Dex you appear to me a relatively young and inexperienced individual so I'm going to put this as delicately as I know how. On this subject your education is SEVERELY lacking and you would be well advised to leave it a lone and move on!

And I DO sincerely thank you for your service!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline Dexter

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2014, 03:34:19 pm »
Saying "war is never glorious" to families of those who have sacrificed, is as condescending as condescension gets.  Who, exactly, do you think believes that war is glorious??  Have you seen any Pattons around here?  Were there any words from anyone supporting the Iraq war here that made you think we were all fools??

Our son's experience was unique, and late in the successful part of the war, and his role in PsyOp unique because he actually spoke one on one with many, many Iraqi people.......... something that you, if you indeed did serve, most likely didn't experience.

But he also saw all the ugliness that you saw, because that's what war is all about.  It's never been pretty, son. NEVER.   But it was not our soldiers killing Iraqi children.  It was the terrorists.  It was al Sadr's thugs.  While we were rebuilding swimming pools and electrical grids, the ENEMY was killing Iraqis.

And in this particular war, we created an ally in the dead center of a very dangerous region, and while we had a real CinC, it was far more stable.  Our troops, as Luis referred to earlier, created an imposing presence, and our strength kept many countries in check.

Now we are weak and flaccid, and things have fallen apart.

As for most of the rest of your words, you are spouting leftist theory that our actions created more terrorism.  It drew the terrorists to Iraq, where our troops defeated them.

Once again, it's disturbing to be arguing with someone who agrees with the idiot congresswoman this thread is about.

What was the justification for the Iraq war? Every reliable source will tell you that we found none/zero/zip/nadda as far as proof of a connection between Iraq and the terrorists that attacked us. The only weapons we found were the ones that we gave to them years before. So with no link to terrorism and no weapons of mass destruction, why did we do it? Did we do it because freeing the Iraqi people from Saddam's rule was the right thing to do? What about North Korea? What about China? What about all of the horrors and atrocities that take place all over Africa? Is that our responsibility too?

You are mistaken if you believe that our soldiers didn't kill a lot of innocent civilians. It wasn't intentional, but collateral damage or not we killed tens of thousands of innocent people.
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Offline Dexter

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2014, 03:38:18 pm »
We're still in Germany and Japan, aren't we?

A very small footprint would have helped keep them stable.  Removing forces entirely as Obama did, created chaos.

Obama removed all our troops for his own political leftist cronies, and destroyed what we had accomplished.

Afghanistan is a different discussion because they're tribal, live in the middle ages, and the probability that they will ever live without war, near zero.

We're talking about Iraq here, and how a leftist "CinC" destroyed what our military had accomplished in the center of the ME, and how you are defending the words of this ditzy leftist congresswoman, who doesn't even know what century it is..

I find it to be asinine that we waste money and resources keeping operational military bases in foreign countries all over the world. I tend to agree with Ron Paul when it comes to the military. There is nothing we could have done to create permanent stability. All our military had accomplished  was keeping everybody in line through sheer force. That is not real peace, and it is not real stability. It was a foregone conclusion that the stability we created would eventually deteriorate once our presence became less and less prominent. 
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Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2014, 03:42:12 pm »
Just adding a note that, whether or not we should 'nation build' is certainly debatable, and at best a gray area, and whether or not our invasion of a country AT WAR WITH US (Iraq) can be rationally discussed, but Petraeus' plan in the Bush surge DID WORK, and it was Obama who lost the war.

Those who spout numbers of deaths, either of civilians or soldiers, while supporting the leftist argument that our actions in Iraq made terrorism worse, I find deeply troubling.  (And there are many who do that).

As to whether or not that person served.............anyone can say anything on the Internet.  Years of experience have taught me not to trust someone who claims one thing while espousing another.  Years of experience have also shown that the libertarian arguments against the invasion of Iraq are very different than those that have been argued here.  These arguments come from the left......knowingly, or not.

And...........IF he did serve, I also thank him for his sacrifice.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2014, 03:43:27 pm »
I find it to be asinine that we waste money and resources keeping operational military bases in foreign countries all over the world. I tend to agree with Ron Paul when it comes to the military. There is nothing we could have done to create permanent stability. All our military had accomplished  was keeping everybody in line through sheer force. That is not real peace, and it is not real stability. It was a foregone conclusion that the stability we created would eventually deteriorate once our presence became less and less prominent.

I am a huge Paul fan, except when he starts talking about foreign policy. At that point he becomes a stark, raving lunatic.

Paul's idea of foreign policy is akin to me advocating that the best way to handle crime in my city is a good lock on my door, and bars on my windows.

That cedes everything outside the walls of my home to crime, and will eventually find me trapped in my house, completely surrounded by crime.

Crime will then breach my door, and I will have lost my fight for freedom.

Paul's foreign policy would have us fighting wars only if they reached our shores.

F$%k that.

I want to fight wars on someone else's soil, not mine.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:46:30 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2014, 03:46:45 pm »
Just adding a note that, whether or not we should 'nation build' is certainly debatable, and at best a gray area, and whether or not our invasion of a country AT WAR WITH US (Iraq) can be rationally discussed, but Petraeus' plan in the Bush surge DID WORK, and it was Obama who lost the war.

Those who spout numbers of deaths, either of civilians or soldiers, while supporting the leftist argument that our actions in Iraq made terrorism worse, I find deeply troubling.  (And there are many who do that).

As to whether or not that person served.............anyone can say anything on the Internet.  Years of experience have taught me not to trust someone who claims one thing while espousing another.  Years of experience have also shown that the libertarian arguments against the invasion of Iraq are very different than those that have been argued here.  These arguments come from the left......knowingly, or not.

And...........IF he did serve, I also thank him for his sacrifice.

This is one of few issues that I find myself in agreement with a lot of leftists, yes. The difference is I do not blame the Republicans or George Bush. I felt the same way about George as I do about Obama. I believe the president is just a front man for the sinister people that are actually pulling the strings. I think the real justification for our invasion of Iraq is much darker than they would have you believe.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2014, 03:50:32 pm »
I find it to be asinine that we waste money and resources keeping operational military bases in foreign countries all over the world. I tend to agree with Ron Paul when it comes to the military. There is nothing we could have done to create permanent stability. All our military had accomplished  was keeping everybody in line through sheer force. That is not real peace, and it is not real stability. It was a foregone conclusion that the stability we created would eventually deteriorate once our presence became less and less prominent.

This is the first time you've sounded like a naïve isolationist, citing Ron Paul, and not a leftist, agreeing with the ditzy congresswoman (which is what you came to this thread to do).

That's progress...............I guess............

As to whether or not the stability created by leaving a small force would have worked long term, that's speculation on anyone's part.  What we do know is that while we were there, and if we had left a small contingent of troops there, Iraq would have been a far more stable place than it is now.

As a Christian, I know that there will be no "lasting peace" in the ME, but I thank our troops for creating a short window of peace in the ME by defeating our ENEMY there, and not letting them come and attack us here, as they did on 9/11.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Bigun

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2014, 03:52:57 pm »
I find it to be asinine that we waste money and resources keeping operational military bases in foreign countries all over the world. I tend to agree with Ron Paul when it comes to the military. There is nothing we could have done to create permanent stability. All our military had accomplished  was keeping everybody in line through sheer force. That is not real peace, and it is not real stability. It was a foregone conclusion that the stability we created would eventually deteriorate once our presence became less and less prominent.

WAR is an ugly thing!

But not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war is worse. A man who has nothing which he cares more about than he does his own personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance at being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

 John Stuart Mill
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:54:08 pm by Bigun »
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

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Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2014, 03:53:10 pm »
This is one of few issues that I find myself in agreement with a lot of leftists, yes. The difference is I do not blame the Republicans or George Bush. I felt the same way about George as I do about Obama. I believe the president is just a front man for the sinister people that are actually pulling the strings. I think the real justification for our invasion of Iraq is much darker than they would have you believe.

So tell me...................why did you enlist and go fight a sinister war for sinister people, under a CinC that has no morals, no values, no patriotism, no courage, no decency (that would be Bush/same as Obama, right?)

WHY did you volunteer with such a cynical attitude and a leftist bent in your foreign policy?
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Dexter

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2014, 03:53:49 pm »
This is the first time you've sounded like a naïve isolationist, citing Ron Paul, and not a leftist, agreeing with the ditzy congresswoman (which is what you came to this thread to do).

That's progress...............I guess............

As to whether or not the stability created by leaving a small force would have worked long term, that's speculation on anyone's part.  What we do know is that while we were there, and if we had left a small contingent of troops there, Iraq would have been a far more stable place than it is now.

As a Christian, I know that there will be no "lasting peace" in the ME, but I thank our troops for creating a short window of peace in the ME by defeating our ENEMY there, and not letting them come and attack us here, as they did on 9/11.

I agree with most of what Ron Paul says. Having a point of view on one issue that is in line with a lot of leftists does not make me a leftist. It means I have one point of view that could be called leftist.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2014, 03:55:56 pm »
I am a huge Paul fan, except when he starts talking about foreign policy. At that point he becomes a stark, raving lunatic.

Paul's idea of foreign policy is akin to me advocating that the best way to handle crime in my city is a good lock on my door, and bars on my windows.

That cedes everything outside the walls of my home to crime, and will eventually find me trapped in my house, completely surrounded by crime.

Crime will then breach my door, and I will have lost my fight for freedom.

Paul's foreign policy would have us fighting wars only if they reached our shores.

F$%k that.

I want to fight wars on someone else's soil, not mine.

Good analogy.

And the argument can be very successfully made that the invasion of Iraq created a situation where the terrorists went there to fight America on foreign soil and it lessened the probability that they would attack us AGAIN here at home.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2014, 03:56:40 pm by musiclady »
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2014, 03:57:45 pm »
I agree with most of what Ron Paul says. Having a point of view on one issue that is in line with a lot of leftists does not make me a leftist. It means I have one point of view that could be called leftist.

Right.

So you came here on this thread to agree with the CongressDitz who doesn't even know what century we're in.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline Dexter

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2014, 03:59:55 pm »
So tell me...................why did you enlist and go fight a sinister war for sinister people, under a CinC that has no morals, no values, no patriotism, no courage, no decency (that would be Bush/same as Obama, right?)

WHY did you volunteer with such a cynical attitude and a leftist bent in your foreign policy?

I enlisted as a very young man in response to the attacks on 9/11. I was a 68W (combat medic) and served two tours, one in Afghanistan and one in Iraq. I had/have no problem with the invasion of Afghanistan. They were harboring the people that actually attacked us and murdered our people. Iraq didn't do that, though, and there is no credible source that showed a connection between Saddam and terrorism.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Bigun

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Re: DC Democrat: Iraq 'Most Catastrophic War of the 20th Century'
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2014, 04:03:55 pm »
Quote
... and there is no credible source that showed a connection between Saddam and terrorism.

Two words!

Bull Sh*t!!!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien