Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship

[MACVSOG68]

Why is it necessary to insinuate that insisting that the laws be followed equals hating someone? It does not!

By itself it doesn't, but coupled with a statement made several times during this discussion:  "Amnesty -- in any form -- will be the death knell of the Euro-American culture", if not hate, it certainly evidences fear.  And that more than anything is why some just can't embrace any change to the laws that would result in the legalization of one illegal.

Just as with S.1348 in 2007, efforts this summer to reignite comprehensive reforms will fail, not through differences among the specifics, but through emotional barrages launched by John Tanton and his anti-immigration organizations.  Tanton has written extensively about this loss of "European-American culture".

Just like the Democrats who were successful in putting Republicans on the defensive over race, gender, and other such issues, Tanton fully understands that the best defense against immigration reform is an aggressive offense based on the proposition that an appeal to fear trumps an appeal to logic.

[Luis Gonzalez]

By itself it doesn't, but coupled with a statement made several times during this discussion:  "Amnesty -- in any form -- will be the death knell of the Euro-American culture", if not hate, it certainly evidences fear.  And that more than anything is why some just can't embrace any change to the laws that would result in the legalization of one illegal.

Just as with S.1348 in 2007, efforts this summer to reignite comprehensive reforms will fail, not through differences among the specifics, but through emotional barrages launched by John Tanton and his anti-immigration organizations.  Tanton has written extensively about this loss of "European-American culture".

Just like the Democrats who were successful in putting Republicans on the defensive over race, gender, and other such issues, Tanton fully understands that the best defense against immigration reform is an aggressive offense based on the proposition that an appeal to fear trumps an appeal to logic.

John Tanton...

Do you know his FR handle?

[MACVSOG68]

John Tanton...

Do you know his FR handle?

LOL, no but his organizations and "studies" are frequently followed over there. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

"I've come to the point of view that for European-American society and culture to persist requires a European-American majority, and a clear one at that."  – John Tanton, Dec. 10, 1993, letter to the late Garrett Hardin

In 2012, deaths among non-Hispanic whites outnumbered births in the same group. That decrease was offset by 188,000 white immigrants arriving the same year.

I've been pounding on the low fertility rate for a while now. No culture or nation can sustain its culture with the numbers we are seeing in the US.

[massadvj]

While I agree the idea of "protecting the culture" is somewhat knee jerk and quixotic, I must also acknowledge that conservatives' feelings that their way of life is under attack is not unfounded, and so I hesitate to mock them, preferring instead to mock leftists, who I consider a far bigger threat, and the primary source of conservative discontent.

[Luis Gonzalez]

While I agree the idea of "protecting the culture" is somewhat knee jerk and quixotic, I must also acknowledge that conservatives' feelings that their way of life is under attack is not unfounded, and so I hesitate to mock them, preferring instead to mock leftists, who I consider a far bigger threat, and the primary source of conservative discontent.

The problem with conservatives when it comes to social issues, and that the thing that is attacking their way of life is time and the natural changes that time brings about.

I consider myself a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian simply because I recognize the difference between a fight I can win, and one that I can't.

In a larger sense, SoCons fight for the ability to live the life they want to live in the world that they want to live it in, which is a much tougher fight than just fighting to live the life you want to live, in the world that exists around you.

I see the notion of individual freedoms akin to the latter part of the sentence over the former.

[MACVSOG68]

While I agree the idea of "protecting the culture" is somewhat knee jerk and quixotic, I must also acknowledge that conservatives' feelings that their way of life is under attack is not unfounded, and so I hesitate to mock them, preferring instead to mock leftists, who I consider a far bigger threat, and the primary source of conservative discontent.

I don't disagree especially as it applies to the left, and I certainly don't intend to mock anyone on this issue.  But I won't ignore how the opposition is framing its arguments.  Our culture is changing in many ways, mostly having little to do with how we invariably handle the immigration issue.  Leftist economics, changes in drug attitudes, video games, music, terrorism, gay issues and more are all changing our culture dramatically.  And for the most part America is accepting these changes.  Those to me have more far reaching impacts than letting Juan stay here legally and work.

[Bigun]

The problem with conservatives when it comes to social issues, and that the thing that is attacking their way of life is time and the natural changes that time brings about.

I consider myself a fiscal conservative and a social libertarian simply because I recognize the difference between a fight I can win, and one that I can't.

In a larger sense, SoCons fight for the ability to live the life they want to live in the world that they want to live it in, which is a much tougher fight than just fighting to live the life you want to live, in the world that exists around you.

I see the notion of individual freedoms akin to the latter part of the sentence over the former.

It may shock you to learn that I happen to agree with most everything you said there Luis. The only point of disagreement between you and I as I see it is that you seem to take a much more caviler attitude toward the law than I do.

[Bigun]

I don't disagree especially as it applies to the left, and I certainly don't intend to mock anyone on this issue.  But I won't ignore how the opposition is framing its arguments.  Our culture is changing in many ways, mostly having little to do with how we invariably handle the immigration issue.  Leftist economics, changes in drug attitudes, video games, music, terrorism, gay issues and more are all changing our culture dramatically.  And for the most part America is accepting these changes.  Those to me have more far reaching impacts than letting Juan stay here legally and work.

Every culture that has ever existed has been ever changing and ours is no different but we CAN manage the change if we set our minds to it! THAT is exactly why regard for the law is SO very important!

[MACVSOG68]

Every culture that has ever existed has been ever changing and ours is no different but we CAN manage the change if we set our minds to it! THAT is exactly why regard for the law is SO very important!

You're absolutely right Bigun.  But what are we trying to do with the Obamacare law?  We're trying to change it because while it may have some worthwhile parts, it is failing.  We do that with laws all the time at all levels of government.  Look at what happened to SEIU membership when Michigan changed its laws to make it a right-to-work state.

We should be enforcing our immigration laws, but on many levels they are ineffective or otherwise out of tune with America.  So what makes these laws immune from modification?

[Bigun]

You're absolutely right Bigun.  But what are we trying to do with the Obamacare law?  We're trying to change it because while it may have some worthwhile parts, it is failing.  We do that with laws all the time at all levels of government.  Look at what happened to SEIU membership when Michigan changed its laws to make it a right-to-work state.

We should be enforcing our immigration laws, but on many levels they are ineffective or otherwise out of tune with America.  So what makes these laws immune from modification?

I don't believe I have ever said that those laws are immutable! What I HAVE said repeatedly is that there is no point in modifying them until we have a government intent on ENFORCING the laws as they currently exist!

[EC]

I don't believe I have ever said that those laws are immutable! What I HAVE said repeatedly is that there is no point in modifying them until we have a government intent on ENFORCING the laws as they currently exist!

This discussion reminds me of something Heinlein said - laws should require 2/3 support to be passed and 1/3 support to be repealed.

[MACVSOG68]

I don't believe I have ever said that those laws are immutable! What I HAVE said repeatedly is that there is no point in modifying them until we have a government intent on ENFORCING the laws as they currently exist!

And what I've said repeatedly is that some laws simply demand changes to make them better.  One of the things I liked about he 2007 failed legislation is that several items had to be certified as in place and working before any legalization could take place.   Today it's simply a hodgepodge of laws and organizations working against each other, giving too much leeway to the convening authorities. 

Are the drug laws working?  Hardly or we would be arresting every pot smoker.  Did the alcohol ban work?  No, that's why we changed it.  When laws are failing to work and Americans want them changed, then it argues for another look at them. 

Regardless of my personal feelings, gay marriage is here to stay, in part because of perceived constitutional issues and in large part to a change in how Americans view it.

[Luis Gonzalez]

It may shock you to learn that I happen to agree with most everything you said there Luis. The only point of disagreement between you and I as I see it is that you seem to take a much more caviler attitude toward the law than I do.

That's odd.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I was siding with the law and you were siding against me.

Bundy is breaking and ignoring all laws, from the U.S. Constitution, to the Constitution of the State of Nevada, to the Courts, and all standing, constitutionally enacted laws drafted by constitutionally elected representatives and signed into effect by constitutionally elected Presidents going back as far as FDR.

What drives me crazy is that the concept of abiding by existing laws seems to be a movable feast to many in here.

Mine isn't the cavalier attitude about the law in here.

[Luis Gonzalez]

This discussion reminds me of something Heinlein said - laws should require 2/3 support to be passed and 1/3 support to be repealed.

That IS good.

I also like the idea of strict Congressional term limits.

Two terms... first one served in Congress, second one served in Leavenworth.

[Bigun]

That's odd.

Just a couple of weeks ago, I was siding with the law and you were siding against me.

Bundy is breaking and ignoring all laws, from the U.S. Constitution, to the Constitution of the State of Nevada, to the Courts, and all standing, constitutionally enacted laws drafted by constitutionally elected representatives and signed into effect by constitutionally elected Presidents going back as far as FDR.

What drives me crazy is that the concept of abiding by existing laws seems to be a movable feast to many in here.

Mine isn't the cavalier attitude about the law in here.

I DISAGREE with your interpretation of what the law is in that case Luis! That is NOT the same thing as disregard of the law!

See you in court counselor!

[Luis Gonzalez]

I DISAGREE with your interpretation of what the law is in that case Luis! That is NOT the same thing as disregard of the law!

See you in court counselor!

It's not MY interpretation of the law, it is THE law, as interpreted by Court cases prior to the Bundy case, as well as the Bundy case itself.

It is THE law as written into the Constitution of the State of Nevada and the Constitution of the United States.

THE Law as constitutionally enacted by Congress.

In Court, Bundy has lost every case presented, because he was and is in violation of the LAW.

It's not that we disagree, it is that you are stubborn and incapable of seeing anything other than the memes you read on anti-government sites.

The government does lots of things wrong. This wasn't one of them.

[olde north church]

That's the crux of it Dex.  This thread, and many others, are filled with wonderful ideas brought forth from people with very good intentions.  But the reality of the world that we live in has devolved far past any of this.  Aside from a handful of reps in the House, and perhaps a stray Senator here and there, no one in the political establishment currently on the national stage wants any of this!!  That is just our current reality.  And while this issue is certainly important and will continue to have drastic impacts on the health of this nation, it is far from the only area in which we have strayed far and wide as a nation.  Yes, the Democrats and their supporting organizations have very specific plans to turn many large purple states blue.  They will use every front available to them to accomplish it.

And aside from the citizens of this country that essentially no longer have representation in the national government, there is no one that wants to do a thing to stop it.  This march has been going on for a LONG time, and it has successfully stomped through our Institutions.  We are living through the beginning of the end games.  As sad as I am to say it, I think that the tide has turned long ago.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[katzenjammer]

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Yes, it certainly is.

[MBB1984]

I am completely fed up with all of this discussion of granting amnesty to ILLEGAL ALIENS.

It makes me sick and angry to see so many that are willing to destroy the value that has been historically placed on the status of "Citizen" in our country, in the name of political expediency. Handing out the status of United States Citizen should not be on an equal plane as giving out door prizes.

Does anybody really believe that people who break into our country are going to magically become good law-abiding productive members of society? Seriously? Think about it. The first act of illegally crossing our border is followed by acts of fraud (fake identification, etc) and theft (accessing public benefits). And we are to believe that these are "victimless" crimes?

To those who suggest that we have to grant Amnesty because there is no practical way to deport the 11 to 20 MILLION (or so) ILLEGAL ALIENS that are currently here, I say that there is no need to deport them. Just ENFORCE existing laws that prevent access to any and all PUBLIC SERVICES, fine Employers that staff their businesses with ILLEGAL ALIENS and the deportation issue will take care of itself in very short order. It is not rocket science at all.

To those people that have jumped through all of the hoops to come to America to become Citizens, the granting of Amnesty to those who violated the law to come here would be nothing less than a huge slap in the face. Is that what we are willing to tolerate? I, for one, am not so inclined.

Anybody that claims to give two hoots about our country and our rule of law who then says that they support AMNESTY is a LIAR and a FOOL and should be treated accordingly.

AGREE 100%!

[Luis Gonzalez]

AGREE 100%!

Just ENFORCE existing laws that prevent access to any and all PUBLIC SERVICES.

Great rant.

The problem is that existing laws grants them access to public services.

[evadR]

Outright violation of the 14th amendment.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Outright violation of the 14th amendment.

I'm curious... how so?

[MACVSOG68]

Does anybody really believe that people who break into our country are going to magically become good law-abiding productive members of society?

I dunno, ask the Indians, lol.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I dunno, ask the Indians, lol.

Oh no you didn't!

Tell me that you didn't go there.