Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship

[Howie66]

Hence, the (political) problem.

It's only a "problem" for those who lack principle.

[EC]

The Soviets built their walls to keep their people from leaving.

The Mexican government is dumping their unwanted (illiterate and criminal) population on us. I don't know about you, but I find this to be unacceptable.

Germany, Ireland, Italy, Sweden and the UK also dumped their undesirables on you. That actually worked out pretty well in the long run.

[Howie66]

Germany, Ireland, Italy, Sweden and the UK also dumped their undesirables on you. That actually worked out pretty well in the long run.

Not quite the same thing, my friend.

Trust me on this.

[EC]

Not quite the same thing, my friend.

Trust me on this.

I know - pulling your leg very slightly with that.

I have two litmus tests: Are they willing to assimilate into the general culture and are they willing to work.

For first generation, I'm not going to fuss over being able to sling the lingo - worked with way too many people who have English as their 3rd or 4th language to be fussed by that. Their kids though ....

The classical immigrant routine to the US goes - the smarter ones (risk takers) emigrate. They try to fit in, but don't quite. Their kids pretty much disown their original culture to attempt to fit in. It's only when you get to the grandkids that you have someone who is proud to be American, yet also proud of their roots.

[MACVSOG68]

"When one demonstrates their contempt for our laws with their very first act upon entering our country, they should immediately forfeit the privilege[/i] of being here in the first place."

Reminds me a little of musical chairs we played as kids.  We're the last one to sit here, and while I'm quite happy with that outcome, we can sometimes be a little disingenuous about exactly how we achieved that last remaining chair.  We violated a hell of a lot of borders in creating the one we now own as a nation.

But I suspect I'm with most here when it comes to facing down the open borders crowd.  I want borders that are substantially improved from what we have today.  I want state governors to be able to assert without hesitation that they are comfortable with the degree of security.  We still get drug smugglers, gang bangers, human traffickers and other assorted criminal types coming across routinely.  The CBP needs to be enhanced; ICE needs to be refocused.  States need to be brought into the process as partners not bystanders.

For those who might see this really as an issue of the defining of an ethnic group in total I have no comments.  With what's going on in places like Detroit, Chicago and D.C, immigration reform isn't about bringing down my heritage or culture.  It's a matter of reality and finding some common ground with my political opponents, the left. 

Pragmatism is a conservative quality.

[massadvj]

I know - pulling your leg very slightly with that.

I have two litmus tests: Are they willing to assimilate into the general culture and are they willing to work.

For first generation, I'm not going to fuss over being able to sling the lingo - worked with way too many people who have English as their 3rd or 4th language to be fussed by that. Their kids though ....

The classical immigrant routine to the US goes - the smarter ones (risk takers) emigrate. They try to fit in, but don't quite. Their kids pretty much disown their original culture to attempt to fit in. It's only when you get to the grandkids that you have someone who is proud to be American, yet also proud of their roots.

My father's grandparents came here from Lebanon, and my mother's grandparents came here from Mexico.  In both cases, they refused to teach their children the language of the old country -- with the exception of  some special words and phrases here and there -- because they wanted their children to be Americans, and they wanted their grandchildren to be Americans, not hyphenated Americans.

Somewhere along the line immigrants got the idea that hanging onto their "cultural identities" was preferable to adapting.  I maintain there is a direct relationship between this trend and the emergence of the managerial state.

[Bigun]

My father's grandparents came here from Lebanon, and my mother's grandparents came here from Mexico.  In both cases, they refused to teach their children the language of the old country -- with the exception of  some special words and phrases here and there -- because they wanted their children to be Americans, and they wanted their grandchildren to be Americans, not hyphenated Americans.

Somewhere along the line immigrants got the idea that hanging onto their "cultural identities" was preferable to adapting.  I maintain there is a direct relationship between this trend and the emergence of the managerial state.

In my youth I had a school friend by the name of Amador Sigero.  I was at his house one day after school for some reason I cannot recall but I DO recall that Amador later told me - apologized actually for speaking Spanish in my presence.  I told him that I had thought nothing of it but he explained that his mother had ROYALLY chewed him out and insisted on his apologizing to me. I didn't understand any of it at the time but now I realize that his mom, who spoke not a word of English, so wanted he son to be an American that she was willing to do anything to make sure he assimilated! We've lost that over the last 50 years.

[EC]

My father's grandparents came here from Lebanon, and my mother's grandparents came here from Mexico.  In both cases, they refused to teach their children the language of the old country -- with the exception of  some special words and phrases here and there -- because they wanted their children to be Americans, and they wanted their grandchildren to be Americans, not hyphenated Americans.

Somewhere along the line immigrants got the idea that hanging onto their "cultural identities" was preferable to adapting.  I maintain there is a direct relationship between this trend and the emergence of the managerial state.

I know what you mean about the words and phrases! My parents - totally white bread English - use several Malay phrases as shorthand. Our kids - well, they are so used to a mix of English, Italian and Hebrew that any conversation between us is going to be totally incomprehensible to an outsider.

[massadvj]

In my youth I had a school friend by the name of Amador Sigero.  I was at his house one day after school for some reason I cannot recall but I DO recall that Amador later told me - apologized actually for speaking Spanish in my presence.  I told him that I had thought nothing of it but he explained that his mother had ROYALLY chewed him out and insisted on his apologizing to me. I didn't understand any of it at the time but now I realize that his mom, who spoke not a word of English, so wanted he son to be an American that she was willing to do anything to make sure he assimilated! We've lost that over the last 50 years.

It might have something to do with the fact that being an American doesn't mean much anymore.  These days the schools are teaching kids to be "global citizens."  By the time they are adults they'll accept global taxation and the surrender of American sovereignty to the third world.  That's the dream, anyway.  Seems more like a nightmare to me.

[MACVSOG68]

It's only a "problem" for those who lack principle.

You must really be upset over the rest of our judicial system then which by most estimates result in 90 to 95 percent plea agreements.  After all if an illegal immigrant's misdemeanor can't permit any type of "plea agreement", then certainly no felony should ever be allowed to be pleaded down. 

[Howie66]

I know - pulling your leg very slightly with that.

I have two litmus tests: Are they willing to assimilate into the general culture and are they willing to work.

For first generation, I'm not going to fuss over being able to sling the lingo - worked with way too many people who have English as their 3rd or 4th language to be fussed by that. Their kids though ....

The classical immigrant routine to the US goes - the smarter ones (risk takers) emigrate. They try to fit in, but don't quite. Their kids pretty much disown their original culture to attempt to fit in. It's only when you get to the grandkids that you have someone who is proud to be American, yet also proud of their roots.

Gotcha, brother.

The main problem is the lack of assimilation which on top of the propensity for illegal activities and the overpowering sense of entitlement makes the whole deal unacceptable.

I will gladly welcome all comers who arrive with the notion of becoming Americans and fully assimilating.

To those who want to maintain their allegiance and loyalty to another country, they can stay there. We really do not need or want them here.

[Howie66]

"When one demonstrates their contempt for our laws with their very first act upon entering our country, they should immediately forfeit the privilege[/i] of being here in the first place."

Reminds me a little of musical chairs we played as kids.  We're the last one to sit here, and while I'm quite happy with that outcome, we can sometimes be a little disingenuous about exactly how we achieved that last remaining chair.  We violated a hell of a lot of borders in creating the one we now own as a nation.

But I suspect I'm with most here when it comes to facing down the open borders crowd.  I want borders that are substantially improved from what we have today.  I want state governors to be able to assert without hesitation that they are comfortable with the degree of security.  We still get drug smugglers, gang bangers, human traffickers and other assorted criminal types coming across routinely.  The CBP needs to be enhanced; ICE needs to be refocused.  States need to be brought into the process as partners not bystanders.

For those who might see this really as an issue of the defining of an ethnic group in total I have no comments.  With what's going on in places like Detroit, Chicago and D.C, immigration reform isn't about bringing down my heritage or culture.  It's a matter of reality and finding some common ground with my political opponents, the left. 

Pragmatism is a conservative quality.

Not sure about you and the mouse in your pocket (we), but I know and can verify that my ancestors arrived to these shores through Ellis Island and did what they were supposed to do in the process.

As a matter of fact, my maternal grandfather felt compelled to enlist in the Navy as his response to the Jap attack on Pearl Harbor. At the time he was 37 years old, married with 5 children and grandma was pregnant with number 6. He had been too young for WWl and wasn't going to be denied the chance to defend America.

My late father in law also came here from the Netherlands, legally, after WWll.

If it's asking someone too much to play by the rules, then we really do not need them here to begin with, do we?

[EC]

Gotcha, brother.

The main problem is the lack of assimilation which on top of the propensity for illegal activities and the overpowering sense of entitlement makes the whole deal unacceptable.

I will gladly welcome all comers who arrive with the notion of becoming Americans and fully assimilating.

To those who want to maintain their allegiance and loyalty to another country, they can stay there. We really do not need or want them here.

 

Intent is the key to me.

I have a very dear friend. His parents were illegals. He served with distinction in the US military (He were a Marine, but you can't have everything!). He's more American than NYC. His parents insisted on him only speaking English - though he has that really flat and annoying San Diego accent (not sure what it is about that accent!).

[MACVSOG68]

Not sure about you and the mouse in your pocket (we), but I know and can verify that my ancestors arrived to these shores through Ellis Island and did what they were supposed to do in the process.

The "We" I'm referring to are the Founding Fathers and their offspring, as well as the British before them.  How do you think this great Nation was developed?  Sounds like some of us only accept the heritage we pick and choose.  My ancestors came over on the famine ships for the most part, but the whole heritage of my Country is mine, bad and good.

My point is that we seem to ignore exactly how "we" came to be here, when we completely go off on others who are trying it the same way.  The laws you feel should not in any way be changed or compromised came about through conquest.  I'm not apologizing for how we came to be the "lawful" (as we defined it) owners. Still I wonder why we can't begin to work with others who have violated borders, but can otherwise be productive citizens.  Yet we don't question tens of thousands of such arrangements across the Country annually for crimes far worse than many of these illegal immigrants.

I know, it's the principle. 

[Fishrrman]

Excellent post, Howie.
I'm re-posting something I put up yesterday in another thread, with modification.

Amnesty -- in any form -- will be the death knell of the Euro-American culture.

If we do this, if we pass legislation -- ANY kind of legislation -- that "normalizes" the illegals already here (even if they don't get "citizenship") -- all it will do will be to encourage MILLIONS MORE to come.

There's a saying:
Anytime you subsidize something, you get MORE of it.

If we "excuse the presence" of those who have sneaked into the country in the last twenty years, what does that say to EVERY person who might be willing to give it a try in the future?

If we "normalize" illegal immigration, by removing all penalties and obstacles for entering the country illegally (even "after the fact"), it becomes open invitation to everyone of THE WORLD (shouting intentional): just get across our border, and you're in! Nothing to worry about!
Or, as Jim Morrison of The Doors said long ago in "The End": "The West is the best -- get here, and we'll do the rest..."

Let me state that I'm a realist, probably one of the few on this forum.
I realize it's a pipedream to think of "sending all the illegals home". That's not going to be done.

BUT -- anything we do to "normalize", "legalize", or excuse them will do nothing but bring MORE of them. What does that portend for the future of America, for our culture?

My solution is simple:
Do nothing.
That's right, NOTHING.

They are here. Let them continue to work, and have Social Security, etc. taken out of their pay. If they work long enough to qualify, let them even -collect- SS benefits, etc. Seems realistic to me, insofar as that goes.

But there must remain a PRICE for entering America illegally.
One that cannot simply be "payed away" in taxes or fines.
The illegals who have come here must PAY that price.

The price must be this:
They must NEVER become U.S. citizens.
They can never vote.
They must ALWAYS be condemned (carefully chosen word) to something of a "second class existence", something intentionally "below" what a citizen like you or I enjoy.
That must be the price of illegal entry.

The anchor babies?
That's not going to be changed, short of a "convention of the states".
It is what it is by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.
We'll have to live with that -- although I wish it -could- be changed.

So -- the children will be citizens.
But the parents who broke the law must NEVER be citizens, or even "legal".
I will not hold the children responsible for the sins of the fathers, but the fathers must NOT be forgiven of their sins against our country.

If we aren't prepared to stand firm about this, we are going to lose the country.

Suggestion:
Back in the 1970s a Frenchman by the name of Jean Raspail wrote a prescient and controversial book entitled "The Camp of the Saints".
You don't have to read it, but please take a few minutes to read the wiki about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints

If we "reform" immigration so that anyone can come here without penalty and without fear, this is where we're headed.

Unrestricted immigration -- and this is exactly what any kind of "immigration reform" is going to result in -- will swamp this country as were the dikes of New Orleans destroyed by Hurricane Katrina.

It took a few centuries for the Roman Empire to collapse.
It seems to have taken only about fifty years for the United States to be approaching that brink.

I sense that five hundred years from now, some historian (if there are any left by then, probably in Asia) will look back and comment that although the facts of the American self-destruction are not in dispute, what remains a mystery is why the Euro-Americans willingly did this to themselves...

Why.... ?

[Fishrrman]

Dex wrote above:
[[ I have a question for you (or anybody). If you grew up in and then had kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job, would you not risk border jumping into a more healthy country to improve your life and the lives of your kids? ]]

So, Dex, here's a direct question:

Just HOW MANY of these folks are you willing to let come here?

Ten million, will that be enough?

Twenty million?

Thirty million?

Fifty million?

Eighty million?

How many should be let in, before you say "that's enough, we have too many now" ??

There are more than FIVE BILLION people in the world who are not Americans.
How many millions upon millions upon millions upon millions (had enough yet?) are you going to let in, just because they might have "kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job" ??

Again, how many?

I've asked the questions, directly "at you".

Waitin' for an answer....

[MACVSOG68]

Amnesty -- in any form -- will be the death knell of the Euro-American culture.


And that ladies and germs is what it's really all about. 

[katzenjammer]

Excellent post, Howie.
I'm re-posting something I put up yesterday in another thread, with modification.

Amnesty -- in any form -- will be the death knell of the Euro-American culture.

If we do this, if we pass legislation -- ANY kind of legislation -- that "normalizes" the illegals already here (even if they don't get "citizenship") -- all it will do will be to encourage MILLIONS MORE to come.

There's a saying:
Anytime you subsidize something, you get MORE of it.

If we "excuse the presence" of those who have sneaked into the country in the last twenty years, what does that say to EVERY person who might be willing to give it a try in the future?

If we "normalize" illegal immigration, by removing all penalties and obstacles for entering the country illegally (even "after the fact"), it becomes open invitation to everyone of THE WORLD (shouting intentional): just get across our border, and you're in! Nothing to worry about!
Or, as Jim Morrison of The Doors said long ago in "The End": "The West is the best -- get here, and we'll do the rest..."

Let me state that I'm a realist, probably one of the few on this forum.
I realize it's a pipedream to think of "sending all the illegals home". That's not going to be done.

BUT -- anything we do to "normalize", "legalize", or excuse them will do nothing but bring MORE of them. What does that portend for the future of America, for our culture?

My solution is simple:
Do nothing.
That's right, NOTHING.

They are here. Let them continue to work, and have Social Security, etc. taken out of their pay. If they work long enough to qualify, let them even -collect- SS benefits, etc. Seems realistic to me, insofar as that goes.

But there must remain a PRICE for entering America illegally.
One that cannot simply be "payed away" in taxes or fines.
The illegals who have come here must PAY that price.

The price must be this:
They must NEVER become U.S. citizens.
They can never vote.
They must ALWAYS be condemned (carefully chosen word) to something of a "second class existence", something intentionally "below" what a citizen like you or I enjoy.
That must be the price of illegal entry.

The anchor babies?
That's not going to be changed, short of a "convention of the states".
It is what it is by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.
We'll have to live with that -- although I wish it -could- be changed.

So -- the children will be citizens.
But the parents who broke the law must NEVER be citizens, or even "legal".
I will not hold the children responsible for the sins of the fathers, but the fathers must NOT be forgiven of their sins against our country.

If we aren't prepared to stand firm about this, we are going to lose the country.

Suggestion:
Back in the 1970s a Frenchman by the name of Jean Raspail wrote a prescient and controversial book entitled "The Camp of the Saints".
You don't have to read it, but please take a few minutes to read the wiki about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camp_of_the_Saints

If we "reform" immigration so that anyone can come here without penalty and without fear, this is where we're headed.

Unrestricted immigration -- and this is exactly what any kind of "immigration reform" is going to result in -- will swamp this country as were the dikes of New Orleans destroyed by Hurricane Katrina.

It took a few centuries for the Roman Empire to collapse.
It seems to have taken only about fifty years for the United States to be approaching that brink.

I sense that five hundred years from now, some historian (if there are any left by then, probably in Asia) will look back and comment that although the facts of the American self-destruction are not in dispute, what remains a mystery is why the Euro-Americans willingly did this to themselves...

Why.... ?

All that I can say is that is an excellent post, Fishrrman.  Thank You.

[Dexter]

Dex wrote above:
[[ I have a question for you (or anybody). If you grew up in and then had kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job, would you not risk border jumping into a more healthy country to improve your life and the lives of your kids? ]]

So, Dex, here's a direct question:

Just HOW MANY of these folks are you willing to let come here?

Ten million, will that be enough?

Twenty million?

Thirty million?

Fifty million?

Eighty million?

How many should be let in, before you say "that's enough, we have too many now" ??

There are more than FIVE BILLION people in the world who are not Americans.
How many millions upon millions upon millions upon millions (had enough yet?) are you going to let in, just because they might have "kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job" ??

Again, how many?

I've asked the questions, directly "at you".

Waitin' for an answer....

All I was saying is that I don't feel it is okay to hate these people simply for seeking a better life.

[Bigun]

All I was saying is that I don't feel it is okay to hate these people simply for seeking a better life.

Why is it necessary to insinuate that insisting that the laws be followed equals hating someone? It does not!

[Dexter]

Why is it necessary to insinuate that insisting that the laws be followed equals hating someone? It does not!

Not everybody does, but a lot do. They act like these people are the freeloading scum of the Earth. I have no problems with immigration laws being upheld, but don't shame somebody for trying to better their life and the lives of their family.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Why is it necessary to insinuate that insisting that the laws be followed equals hating someone? It does not!

Why is it necessary to insinuate that disagreeing with any comment Sarah Palin makes means that one is a Palin "hater"?

[EC]

Not everybody does, but a lot do. They act like these people are the freeloading scum of the Earth. I have no problems with immigration laws being upheld, but don't shame somebody for trying to better their life and the lives of their family.

I'll be totally blunt. I have looked into moving to the USA.

Doing it illegal would cost me about $5000 for an airtight, established ID.

Doing it legally would cost me 2 to three times that and several years.

Guess which one is more tempting to take up?

[Luis Gonzalez]

My father's grandparents came here from Lebanon, and my mother's grandparents came here from Mexico.  In both cases, they refused to teach their children the language of the old country -- with the exception of  some special words and phrases here and there -- because they wanted their children to be Americans, and they wanted their grandchildren to be Americans, not hyphenated Americans.

Somewhere along the line immigrants got the idea that hanging onto their "cultural identities" was preferable to adapting.  I maintain there is a direct relationship between this trend and the emergence of the managerial state.

I've done the exact same thing that your grandparents did with my children, for the very same reason, but your last name isn't "Gonzalez", so you are not burdened with the hyphenated citizenship that I am forced to bear, and that my children are forced to bear.

Here's something to give you perspective from the other side of the fence.

If a man and his wife migrate from Sweden to the US, their US-born children will be called Americans.

If a man migrates from France to the US, meets a beautiful woman from Ukraine and marries her, their children will be called Americans.

If a man and his wife migrate to the US from Cuba, their US-born child will be called "Hispanic" or "Cuban-American", not by choice. If their child marries the US-born daughter of a Cuban immigrant, their children will be called "Hispanic" and "Cuban-American" not by choice.

That's my parents, my brother and my nieces I'm talking about.

My suggestion is that long before there is a demand made for immigrants to better assimilate, the labels imposed on them that keep them separated from society eyond that assimilation need to be removed.

I've assimilated... why is it then that I am forced to remain anything but "American"?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Dex wrote above:
[[ I have a question for you (or anybody). If you grew up in and then had kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job, would you not risk border jumping into a more healthy country to improve your life and the lives of your kids? ]]

So, Dex, here's a direct question:

Just HOW MANY of these folks are you willing to let come here?

Ten million, will that be enough?

Twenty million?

Thirty million?

Fifty million?

Eighty million?

How many should be let in, before you say "that's enough, we have too many now" ??

There are more than FIVE BILLION people in the world who are not Americans.
How many millions upon millions upon millions upon millions (had enough yet?) are you going to let in, just because they might have "kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job" ??

Again, how many?

I've asked the questions, directly "at you".

Waitin' for an answer....

I'll answer for Dex...

If we allow the entire working-age population into the US today, we will still not be able to get back to the worker to retiree ratio that existed at the time that the Social Security program was put in place, and our country will collapse under the weight of discharging our debt to our retirees.

So how many will we need?

Millions more than the ones already here unless we start to have more kids.

The true collapse of our culture will not come about as a result of more people coming into our nation, but rather from the lack of people needed to sustain it.