Author Topic: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship  (Read 10465 times)

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Offline Howie66

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Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« on: April 29, 2014, 10:11:20 AM »
I am completely fed up with all of this discussion of granting amnesty to ILLEGAL ALIENS.

It makes me sick and angry to see so many that are willing to destroy the value that has been historically placed on the status of "Citizen" in our country, in the name of political expediency. Handing out the status of United States Citizen should not be on an equal plane as giving out door prizes.

Does anybody really believe that people who break into our country are going to magically become good law-abiding productive members of society? Seriously? Think about it. The first act of illegally crossing our border is followed by acts of fraud (fake identification, etc) and theft (accessing public benefits). And we are to believe that these are "victimless" crimes?

To those who suggest that we have to grant Amnesty because there is no practical way to deport the 11 to 20 MILLION (or so) ILLEGAL ALIENS that are currently here, I say that there is no need to deport them. Just ENFORCE existing laws that prevent access to any and all PUBLIC SERVICES, fine Employers that staff their businesses with ILLEGAL ALIENS and the deportation issue will take care of itself in very short order. It is not rocket science at all.

To those people that have jumped through all of the hoops to come to America to become Citizens, the granting of Amnesty to those who violated the law to come here would be nothing less than a huge slap in the face. Is that what we are willing to tolerate? I, for one, am not so inclined.

Anybody that claims to give two hoots about our country and our rule of law who then says that they support AMNESTY is a LIAR and a FOOL and should be treated accordingly.

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I didn't enlist in the Corps just to watch my country become a Third World Communist Shit-hole. Don't know anyone who did.

Online Bigun

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2014, 10:19:04 AM »
I am completely fed up with all of this discussion of granting amnesty to ILLEGAL ALIENS.

It makes me sick and angry to see so many that are willing to destroy the value that has been historically placed on the status of "Citizen" in our country, in the name of political expediency. Handing out the status of United States Citizen should not be on an equal plane as giving out door prizes.

Does anybody really believe that people who break into our country are going to magically become good law-abiding productive members of society? Seriously? Think about it. The first act of illegally crossing our border is followed by acts of fraud (fake identification, etc) and theft (accessing public benefits). And we are to believe that these are "victimless" crimes?

To those who suggest that we have to grant Amnesty because there is no practical way to deport the 11 to 20 MILLION (or so) ILLEGAL ALIENS that are currently here, I say that there is no need to deport them. Just ENFORCE existing laws that prevent access to any and all PUBLIC SERVICES, fine Employers that staff their businesses with ILLEGAL ALIENS and the deportation issue will take care of itself in very short order. It is not rocket science at all.

To those people that have jumped through all of the hoops to come to America to become Citizens, the granting of Amnesty to those who violated the law to come here would be nothing less than a huge slap in the face. Is that what we are willing to tolerate? I, for one, am not so inclined.

Anybody that claims to give two hoots about our country and our rule of law who then says that they support AMNESTY is a LIAR and a FOOL and should be treated accordingly.

 :da man:

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Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2014, 10:20:00 AM »
I am completely fed up with all of this discussion of granting amnesty to ILLEGAL ALIENS.

It makes me sick and angry to see so many that are willing to destroy the value that has been historically placed on the status of "Citizen" in our country, in the name of political expediency. Handing out the status of United States Citizen should not be on an equal plane as giving out door prizes.

Does anybody really believe that people who break into our country are going to magically become good law-abiding productive members of society? Seriously? Think about it. The first act of illegally crossing our border is followed by acts of fraud (fake identification, etc) and theft (accessing public benefits). And we are to believe that these are "victimless" crimes?

To those who suggest that we have to grant Amnesty because there is no practical way to deport the 11 to 20 MILLION (or so) ILLEGAL ALIENS that are currently here, I say that there is no need to deport them. Just ENFORCE existing laws that prevent access to any and all PUBLIC SERVICES, fine Employers that staff their businesses with ILLEGAL ALIENS and the deportation issue will take care of itself in very short order. It is not rocket science at all.

To those people that have jumped through all of the hoops to come to America to become Citizens, the granting of Amnesty to those who violated the law to come here would be nothing less than a huge slap in the face. Is that what we are willing to tolerate? I, for one, am not so inclined.

Anybody that claims to give two hoots about our country and our rule of law who then says that they support AMNESTY is a LIAR and a FOOL and should be treated accordingly.

 :thumbsup:

I am in total agreement with you Howie.  A nation cannot exist without enforced borders.  It amazes me that this simple point has been overlooked for so long, and it is no surprise that we have devolved to this place.  Two powerful forces have warped this whole discussion: the left which wants to continue to swarm and overwhelm our system, and the corporatists than want cheap labor.  And at this point we have no politicians willing to stand up against these forces, and a large swath of the population (from the so called "right") cheering them on to cave completely on some faint hope that they will "win" an election.  Given the cost of this "win," what will it provide for the health and well being of the nation?

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2014, 10:26:21 AM »
Quote
Just ENFORCE existing laws
That's the bottom line with immigration - and firearms, for that matter. We already have plenty of laws, probably more than we need. Why does this congress insist on passing new ones? There is a pathway to citizenship, and immigrants have been following it for many years.
The only difference between the Democrats and the Republicans is that the Democrats allow the poor to be corrupt, too.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2014, 10:27:48 AM »
That's the bottom line with immigration - and firearms, for that matter. We already have plenty of laws, probably more than we need. Why does this congress insist on passing new ones? There is a pathway to citizenship, and immigrants have been following it for many years.

Absolutely right!

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Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2014, 10:33:09 AM »
Sorry, Howie.

Have no problem with calling for no amnesty per se, but you go off the rails generalizing that these aren't good law-abiding people once they're here.

When I see an unfashionably dressed woman holding bags of groceries with 3 little munchkins walking behind her in clothes too big....I see one those kids as my mother.

'She' knows nothing about Sicily...she can understand but not speak fluent Italian...and she was brought here by my grandmother.  Her great granddaughter is Princeton-Yale.

How can 'you' demand respect for our laws when the existing ones haven't been enforced....when our own Justice Department publicly says they're not going to enforce laws?

Looks from here that people who religiously follow laws are more like subjects today than free men.

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Online Bigun

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2014, 10:40:27 AM »
Sorry, Howie.

Have no problem with calling for no amnesty per se, but you go off the rails generalizing that these aren't good law-abiding people once they're here.

When I see an unfashionably dressed woman holding bags of groceries with 3 little munchkins walking behind her in clothes too big....I see one those kids as my mother.

'She' knows nothing about Sicily...she can understand but not speak fluent Italian...and she was brought here by my grandmother.  Her great granddaughter is Princeton-Yale.

How can 'you' demand respect for our laws when the existing ones haven't been enforced....when our own Justice Department publicly says they're not going to enforce laws?

Looks from here that people who religiously follow laws are more like subjects today than free men.

There is a LOT more to this than that! Number one of which is what message are we sending to people all over the world who are patiently standing in line trying to get in this country the RIGHT way?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 10:41:01 AM by Bigun »

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2014, 10:47:20 AM »
There is a LOT more to this than that! Number one of which is what message are we sending to people all over the world who are patiently standing in line trying to get in this country the RIGHT way?

Exactly.  It doesn't matter a hoot whether or not they are "good people" or "bad people."  ALL people that wish to legally immigrate into a nation must follow the laws that the nation has established.  And it is the sworn duty of the nation's government to enforce the laws and keep the borders secure.  This is one of the most basic and fundamental duties of said government.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2014, 10:47:25 AM »
I am probably alone in this thinking here on this site, but I think our existing laws are decidedly too anti-immigrant, and that has contributed to the problem.  Now, now.  Here me out.

If we go back to the 1950's and 60's when we didn't have a welfare state, and people could come and go as they pleased, there really was no problem.  People came up to pick fruit or whatever, and when the work was done they went back.  But then we made social welfare and unemployment available, so there was an economic incentive to just stay and do the seasonal work and collect unemployment the rest of the year.  The increase in border security also became a deterrent to coming and going.  It was easier to just move the family over once and be done with it.

The whole problem is caused by the economic divide between the US and Mexico.  Increasing border security and keeping migrant workers out will only widen the gap between the two countries.  We are both better off by allowing their workers in.  We get cheap labor to produce more affordable products, and they get much needed capital to improve their economy.  Free trade is always a win/win in the long run, and far better than erecting barriers, which only empowers government and special interest groups.

I propose that we loosen up our laws and let anyone in who is qualified and wants to work, but strictly enforce the law insofar as qualifying for public assistance and other benefits, which should be a prerogative of citizenship.  If it were up to me, this would include voting and access to public education.  The end result would be a robust exchange of labor between our two countries with the hope of creating a future common market.  It would also check states and especially the federal government from becoming too socialistic, whereas increasing border security only incentivizes  socialism.

In the end, we'd have a more secure border because most people would be coming through routinely, and our security apparatus could focus on those who are truly a security threat.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 10:50:26 AM by massadvj »
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Online Bigun

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2014, 10:52:25 AM »
I am probably alone in this thinking here on this site, but I think our existing laws are decidedly too anti-immigrant, and that has contributed to the problem.  Now, now.  Here me out.

If we go back to the 1950's and 60's when we didn't have a welfare state, and people could come and go as they pleased, there really was no problem.  People came up to pick fruit or whatever, and when the work was done they went back.  But then we made social welfare and unemployment available, so there was an economic incentive to just stay and do the seasonal work and collect unemployment the rest of the year.  The increase in border security also became a deterrent to coming and going.  It was easier to just move the family over once and be done with it.

The whole problem is caused by the economic divide between the US and Mexico.  Increasing border security and keeping migrant workers out will only widen the gap between the two countries.  We are both better off by allowing their workers in.  We get cheap labor to produce more affordable products, and they get much needed capital to improve their economy.  Free trade is always a win/win in the long run, and far better than erecting barriers, which only empowers government and special interest groups.

I propose that we loosen up our laws and let anyone in who is qualified and wants to work, but strictly enforce the law insofar as qualifying for public assistance and other benefits, which should be a prerogative of citizenship.  If it were up to me, this would include voting and access to public education.  The end result would be a robust exchange of labor between our two countries with the hope of creating a future common market.  It would also check states and especially the federal government from becoming too socialistic, whereas increasing border security only incentivizes  socialism.

IF we had a government that we could trust to "faithfully execute the laws" I would be more than willing to enter into a discussion of your ideas (some of them have REAL merit) but as things currently stand I'm not interested!
 

Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2014, 10:59:01 AM »
I am probably alone in this thinking here on this site, but I think our existing laws are decidedly too anti-immigrant, and that has contributed to the problem.  Now, now.  Here me out.

If we go back to the 1950's and 60's when we didn't have a welfare state, and people could come and go as they pleased, there really was no problem.  People came up to pick fruit or whatever, and when the work was done they went back.  But then we made social welfare and unemployment available, so there was an economic incentive to just stay and do the seasonal work and collect unemployment the rest of the year.  The increase in border security also became a deterrent to coming and going.  It was easier to just move the family over once and be done with it.

The whole problem is caused by the economic divide between the US and Mexico.  Increasing border security and keeping migrant workers out will only widen the gap between the two countries.  We are both better off by allowing their workers in.  We get cheap labor to produce more affordable products, and they get much needed capital to improve their economy.  Free trade is always a win/win in the long run, and far better than erecting barriers, which only empowers government and special interest groups.

I propose that we loosen up our laws and let anyone in who is qualified and wants to work, but strictly enforce the law insofar as qualifying for public assistance and other benefits, which should be a prerogative of citizenship.  If it were up to me, this would include voting and access to public education.  The end result would be a robust exchange of labor between our two countries with the hope of creating a future common market.  It would also check states and especially the federal government from becoming too socialistic, whereas increasing border security only incentivizes  socialism.

Your view is essentially the Libertarian Party view (at least is was for some time, haven't checked on it recently).  It is an area in which I personally part ways with the LP.  This view is one of the idealistic "wouldn't it be nice!!" views that has slim to no chance of ever being realized.  You address the completely suicidal aspect of having open borders and a generous welfare state.  A nation cannot survive with both.  And, unfortunately all of the momentum and movement that we have experienced in this nation over the past several decades is to provide MORE & MORE of an overly generous welfare state.  And because of the fact that none of this is "short-sighted" mistakes or unintended consequences of generous hearts, the likelihood of it ever being rolled back as your approach demands, will simply never happen.  That train has left the station long ago.  In fact, we have created an entitlement system that is destined to implode at some point even if its benefits were limited to the actual citizens of the nation.  Adding more hands and mouths just hastens that implosion.

Offline massadvj

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2014, 11:01:05 AM »
IF we had a government that we could trust to "faithfully execute the laws" I would be more than willing to enter into a discussion of your ideas (some of them have REAL merit) but as things currently stand I'm not interested!

The problem is we have way, way too many laws.  The best system is one in which there are a few sensible laws, and those laws are strictly enforced.  The government is simply unable to enforce laws that artificially restrict the law of supply and demand, especially when the demand is widespread.  It really should stay out of the way of free commerce.  This is why our drug laws are a failure, why prohibition failed, why we can't legally restrict abortion in most states.  Besides, if property rights are "inalienable" then a Mexican should have the right to come here and negotiate a price for his labor if he so desires.  It should not be a requirement of citizenship.

Asking the government to pick the winners and losers in the labor market is overreach.  We need to focus on smaller, more efficient government that says what it means and has the power to make it stick.
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2014, 11:03:34 AM »
Your view is essentially the Libertarian Party view (at least is was for some time, haven't checked on it recently).  It is an area in which I personally part ways with the LP.  This view is one of the idealistic "wouldn't it be nice!!" views that has slim to no chance of ever being realized.  You address the completely suicidal aspect of having open borders and a generous welfare state.  A nation cannot survive with both.  And, unfortunately all of the momentum and movement that we have experienced in this nation over the past several decades is to provide MORE & MORE of an overly generous welfare state.  And because of the fact that none of this is "short-sighted" mistakes or unintended consequences of generous hearts, the likelihood of it ever being rolled back as your approach demands, will simply never happen.  That train has left the station long ago.  In fact, we have created an entitlement system that is destined to implode at some point even if its benefits were limited to the actual citizens of the nation.  Adding more hands and mouths just hastens that implosion.

I completely agree with you.  I agree the system is destined to implode, and I'd say that with open borders our entitlement system will implode sooner rather than later.  I consider that a good thing.  Socialism and closed borders go hand-in-hand.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2014, 11:04:28 AM »
The problem is we have way, way too many laws.  The best system is one in which there are a few sensible laws, and those laws are strictly enforced.  The government is simply unable to enforce laws that artificially restrict the law of supply and demand, especially when the demand is widespread.  It really should stay out of the way of free commerce.  This is why our drug laws are a failure, why prohibition failed, why we can't legally restrict abortion in most states.  Besides, if property rights are "inalienable" then a Mexican should have the right to come here and negotiate a price for his labor if he so desires.  It should not be a requirement of citizenship.

Asking the government to pick the winners and losers in the labor market is overreach.  We need to focus on smaller, more efficient government that says what it means and has the power to make it stick.

Again I agree with a lot of what you say Victor! Especially the idea that we have WAY to many laws and their attendant regulations! But the Washington establishment does not WANT what you and I want! THAT is the problem!

Offline massadvj

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2014, 11:08:41 AM »
Again I agree with a lot of what you say Victor! Especially the idea that we have WAY to many laws and their attendant regulations! But the Washington establishment does not WANT what you and I want! THAT is the problem!

No, but we can take solace in the fact that they are mostly impotent when it comes to enforcing what they want.  I certainly don't want them turning the country into a fortress.  Walls that keep people out can just as easily be used to keep people in if it comes to it.  Freedom, no walls, and a government committed only to protecting freedom is a much better alternative.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 11:15:07 AM by massadvj »
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2014, 11:11:50 AM »
Your view is essentially the Libertarian Party view (at least is was for some time, haven't checked on it recently).  It is an area in which I personally part ways with the LP.  This view is one of the idealistic "wouldn't it be nice!!" views that has slim to no chance of ever being realized.

The chance is even more slim if we defeat the possibility of it ever working. Some of those "wouldn't it be nice?" situations might not be as unattainable as we let ourselves think. So many of us have accepted hopelessness.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline Dexter

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2014, 11:14:18 AM »
No, but we can take solace in the fact that they are mostly impotent when it comes to enforcing what they want.  I certainly don't want them turning the country into a fortress.  Walls that keep people out can just as easily be used to keep people in if it comes to it.  Freedom and no walls is a much better alternative.

Isolation is not typically good for a country in the long run.
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Offline katzenjammer

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2014, 11:15:20 AM »
The chance is even more slim if we defeat the possibility of it ever working. Some of those "wouldn't it be nice?" situations might not be as unattainable as we let ourselves think. So many of us have accepted hopelessness.

The problem with it is that we will never (until after the implosion) scale back the welfare state, which is a key requirement of this approach.  That is why it is an idea that is essentially still born.

Offline DCPatriot

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2014, 11:16:08 AM »
There is a LOT more to this than that! Number one of which is what message are we sending to people all over the world who are patiently standing in line trying to get in this country the RIGHT way?



Bigun, you're willing to crush the very lives of MILLIONS of young Hispanics who are as American, USA as you and I.....just so we can "send a more appealing message to those people patiently standing in line....."

Just because their parents risked EVERYTHING to get here?

If you've never had the opportunity to really know them up close....then I'll be like the Pope and forgive you for your negative image of them.  LOL~

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Offline Dexter

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2014, 11:19:06 AM »
The problem with it is that we will never (until after the implosion) scale back the welfare state, which is a key requirement of this approach.  That is why it is an idea that is essentially still born.

I don't think Massad is really proposing a huge downsizing of the welfare state. He more just wants to tighten the requirements against illegals so they have more incentive to work hard and become citizens the right way. Fixing this process makes trade and the exchange of labor much more healthy.
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Online Bigun

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2014, 11:24:03 AM »


Bigun, you're willing to crush the very lives of MILLIONS of young Hispanics who are as American, USA as you and I.....just so we can "send a more appealing message to those people patiently standing in line....."

Just because their parents risked EVERYTHING to get here?

If you've never had the opportunity to really know them up close....then I'll be like the Pope and forgive you for your negative image of them.  LOL~

The world is a VERY ruff place DC And if we are to survive in it we MUST have the rule of law! It is not optional!

Offline Dexter

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2014, 11:24:47 AM »


Bigun, you're willing to crush the very lives of MILLIONS of young Hispanics who are as American, USA as you and I.....just so we can "send a more appealing message to those people patiently standing in line....."

Just because their parents risked EVERYTHING to get here?

If you've never had the opportunity to really know them up close....then I'll be like the Pope and forgive you for your negative image of them.  LOL~

As DC pointed out, you also have to consider what is reasonable and humane. How far are we willing to go?
"I know one thing, that I know nothing."
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2014, 11:25:38 AM »
I don't think Massad is really proposing a huge downsizing of the welfare state. He more just wants to tighten the requirements against illegals so they have more incentive to work hard and become citizens the right way. Fixing this process makes trade and the exchange of labor much more healthy.

Oh, I'd get rid of the welfare state if I could, at least at the federal level.

I think increasing border security to keep people out increases the likelihood that the welfare state expands and becomes "permanent."  It won't really be permanent, but it will be locked in for a longer time.  It's like building a dam.  Without constant maintenance, it will eventually give way.  Given the volatility of the times, and the certain increased volatility of the future, I think we are deluding ourselves if we think we can build a dam that will hold back the flood forever, especially since the pressure against it will be relentless and increasing.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 11:27:20 AM by massadvj »
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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2014, 11:25:45 AM »
As DC pointed out, you also have to consider what is reasonable and humane. How far are we willing to go?

As far as is necessary!

Offline Dexter

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Re: Amnesty: The devaluation of American Citizenship
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 11:29:45 AM »
The world is a VERY ruff place DC And if we are to survive in it we MUST have the rule of law! It is not optional!

I have a question for you (or anybody). If you grew up in and then had kids in a pretty rough country with little/no benefits and almost no hope of landing a truly good job, would you not risk border jumping into a more healthy country to improve your life and the lives of your kids? I can tell you without hesitation that I would, and I bet a lot of you would too. I understand that we need to have some control over our borders, and that tons of illegal aliens coming here is not necessarily a good thing, but I don't like the disdain some people seem to have for these people. They're just trying to live their lives and love/support their families. 
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