Author Topic: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day  (Read 2318 times)

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Offline rb224315

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2014, 08:16:12 pm »
Dr. Sowell is speaking to the disintegration of the black family. 

Respectfully submitted for consideration...

Why would he mention the disintegration of the black family if it had no bearing on the circumstances of the individuals in those families and in the black community at large?  Implied in his statement is the fact that black individuals are harmed by the disintegration of the black family.

In that case, he is clearly correct, but it does not logically follow that he thinks it's better to be owned by another human being than to be free to make choices.

Are you really suggesting that Sowell means that?  Don't you believe he holds human liberty in higher regard than that?

"The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state."

As the family goes, so goes the individual.  I take him to mean that the effect of liberal welfare policies on black families have engendered dependency in the black community leading to a loss of freedom not unlike what was experienced in slave times.  Why would he make the comparison if he didn't consider the two things to be comparable?  Why can we not admit that liberal social policy is as bad as it is?
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Offline EC

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2014, 08:25:11 pm »
As the family goes, so goes the individual.  I take him to mean that the effect of liberal welfare policies on black families have engendered dependency in the black community leading to a loss of freedom not unlike what was experienced in slave times.  Why would he make the comparison if he didn't consider the two things to be comparable?  Why can we not admit that liberal social policy is as bad as it is?

With respect - I read it differently.

To borrow a sharecropper analogy for a second - you plant a crop, you raise that crop. Look after it. Take care of it. Treasure it. Children are a crop.

What happens if you can plant the seed then just walk away, trusting to others to look after your crops. Usually - you starve as your crops wither.
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2014, 08:27:33 pm »
Why can we not admit that liberal social policy is as bad as it is?

Oh, it is.  Absolutely so.  That is precisely Dr. Sowell's point.  He observes that the black family largely survived slavery and Jim Crow but has failed during enlightened liberal policy.

Sadly, my belief is there is no going back.  Not for generations.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2014, 08:33:42 pm »
Great news! Now that we know you are authorized to speak for Dr. Sowell, perhaps you can tell us what he meant when he said this:

"The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state."

I'm not speaking for Dr. Sowell, you are.

You want to argue that because Sowell recognizes the plight of the black family, and the reasons why the deterioration has occurred, this somehow translates into his saying that blacks would be better off as slaves.

That is not only absurd, but insulting to Dr. Sowell.   
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2014, 08:36:12 pm »
Why would he mention the disintegration of the black family if it had no bearing on the circumstances of the individuals in those families and in the black community at large?  Implied in his statement is the fact that black individuals are harmed by the disintegration of the black family.

"The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state."

As the family goes, so goes the individual.  I take him to mean that the effect of liberal welfare policies on black families have engendered dependency in the black community leading to a loss of freedom not unlike what was experienced in slave times.  Why would he make the comparison if he didn't consider the two things to be comparable?  Why can we not admit that liberal social policy is as bad as it is?

We DO admit that liberal social policy is as bad as it is.  That's not what we're discussing here.

What those of us who disagree with your interpretation of Sowell are saying is that, there is no reason to conclude from the quote you have cited that Sowell believes that the disintegration of the black family under leftist policies, is as bad as having individuals and families in chains, beaten, sold at auction, and completely without liberty.

Black individuals and families under leftist policy still have choices that they can make affecting their futures and well-being.

Often times they choose poorly, but that doesn't mean they don't have that choice.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline rb224315

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2014, 08:37:57 pm »
With respect - I read it differently.

To borrow a sharecropper analogy for a second - you plant a crop, you raise that crop. Look after it. Take care of it. Treasure it. Children are a crop.

What happens if you can plant the seed then just walk away, trusting to others to look after your crops. Usually - you starve as your crops wither.

Exactly right.  The liberal welfare state does what (as I understand it, anyway) even slave owners wouldn't do.  They plant the seed of dependency on government programs, reap their own rewards in the form of votes, then leave the black community to live with the results.

To reiterate: nobody is suggesting that society should go backward, and especially not to slavery or Jim Crow. 

Sowell made a comparison between the outcomes of slavery and the outcomes of the welfare state.  Surely the comparison must not have been that much of a stretch or he wouldn't have made it, right?
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2014, 08:40:45 pm »
This entire debate is absurd.

It relies on the absence of a third option.

People on welfare can choose to walk away from it and better themselves. Millions of blacks have.

Slavery removes that option.

Anyone who can't see that difference is a fool.
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Offline EC

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2014, 08:43:35 pm »
Sowell made a comparison between the outcomes of slavery and the outcomes of the welfare state.  Surely the comparison must not have been that much of a stretch or he wouldn't have made it, right?

When Doctor Sowell speaks - I listen hard. Not just to the words but to what he doesn't say. Not because he's black, but because he is way smarter than me and has a first hand perspective on the race discussion.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2014, 09:02:07 pm »
When Doctor Sowell speaks - I listen hard. Not just to the words but to what he doesn't say. Not because he's black, but because he is way smarter than me and has a first hand perspective on the race discussion.

When you start listening to the things people don't say, you run into the danger of hearing echoes if your own word and thoughts.

Here's what Sowell didn't say.

"Blacks would be better off as slaves."

I hear that loud and clear.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, i have others." - Groucho Marx

Offline rb224315

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #34 on: April 28, 2014, 09:09:12 pm »
When you start listening to the things people don't say, you run into the danger of hearing echoes if your own word and thoughts.

Here's what Sowell didn't say.

"Blacks would be better off as slaves."

I hear that loud and clear.

Right, because he didn't say that, nor did he imply it.  He said "the black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state."  The black family is worse off after the expansion of the welfare state than it was after centuries of slavery and Jim Crow.

Nobody has said "blacks would be better off as slaves".  Bundy wondered whether or not blacks in slave times were better off than blacks under our welfare state, which is awfully similar to what Sowell said.  Nobody said "blacks would be better off as slaves".
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Offline EC

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2014, 09:10:08 pm »
When you start listening to the things people don't say, you run into the danger of hearing echoes if your own word and thoughts.

Here's what Sowell didn't say.

"Blacks would be better off as slaves."

I hear that loud and clear.

Luis - like you, I am an author. The white space is as eloquent as the words. More so, sometimes.

He did not state that blacks would be better off as slaves. He was asking what difference is there between what the VAST majority of blacks have now and what they had in slave times.
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2014, 09:15:38 pm »
Dr. Sowell is certainly not concluding that the institution of slavery is desirable or better than the circumstances of blacks today.  He does, however, suggest that the disintegration of the black family unit, in general, is traceable to liberal policy. 

To me, this is a vast and obvious distinction over what seems to be argued by some.
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Offline rb224315

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2014, 09:20:44 pm »
Dr. Sowell is certainly not concluding that the institution of slavery is desirable or better than the circumstances of blacks today.  He does, however, suggest that the disintegration of the black family unit, in general, is traceable to liberal policy. 

Yes, the disintegration of the black family unit is traceable to liberal policy.  Not even slavery or Jim Crow could break up the black family like liberal welfare policy has.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2014, 09:49:42 pm »
Luis - like you, I am an author. The white space is as eloquent as the words. More so, sometimes.

He did not state that blacks would be better off as slaves.

Bundy wondered exactly that.

It is absurd to think that Sowell would ask that.

Quote
He was asking what difference is there between what the VAST majority of blacks have now and what they had in slave times.

Nearly half of Black Americans own homes.

To the best of my knowledge, no slaves owned homes.

The vast majority (75%) live above poverty level. I don't see myself as going out on a limb in thinking that "poverty level"in the US is significantly higher than "slavery level".

American blacks own @ 2 million businesses in the US. Don't have a comparable figure for slave-owned businesses.

They have civil rights

They have voting rights.

They enjoy equal protection under the law.

And they have a fair amount of confidence in expecting that no one will ever brand them with a hot iron to be marked as property.

Oh!

They have the NBA.
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Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2014, 09:53:29 pm »
Right, because he didn't say that, nor did he imply it.  He said "the black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state."  The black family is worse off after the expansion of the welfare state than it was after centuries of slavery and Jim Crow.

Nobody has said "blacks would be better off as slaves".  Bundy wondered whether or not blacks in slave times were better off than blacks under our welfare state, which is awfully similar to what Sowell said.  Nobody said "blacks would be better off as slaves".

"And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton?" - Cliven Bundy.

So, your point is that I have to hear what Sowell didn't say, and not hear what Bundy DID say?

That makes sense.

/sarcasm
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 09:54:20 pm by Luis Gonzalez »
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2014, 10:14:34 pm »
I have some misgivings about telling this story but it is 100% true.  I draw no conclusions but you may.

My son is an engineering student at an engineering and mining school in a western state (I prefer not to name it in this context).  This past Easter weekend, Mrs. Lando and I drove out to visit him as he was moving into a new house near campus with 3 other guys.  My other son from North Dakota met us there.  One of my son's roommates is a former Navy Seal and very imposing in stature.  Very imposing.  29 years-old.  Anyway, one evening Mom and Dad went back to the hotel while the guys were going downtown for a few drinks and a few laughs.  While at the bar, the Navy Seal struck up a conversation with a woman and he told her that he was former military.  She replied that she hated the military and that was that - or so it would seem.  The Navy Seal did tell her that she should appreciate the sacrifice of military people as he had devoted 10 years of his life to it.

The guys decided to leave for another venue, when they stepped out to the street a large black man immediately struck the Navy Seal in the face.  He went down, but got up.  A second guy again struck him.  This time, he stayed down striking his head on the pavement.  The bad guys fled and it was estimated by witnesses that there were 10-14 of them.  All of them of color.  It was over very quickly.

The Navy Seal suffered a cracked skull, broken upper jaw and two broken ribs (one guy kicked him when he was down).  Of course, the local police are "investigating".

I asked the Navy Seal if he was angry.  He said he can't afford to get angry.  His roommates all know to lightly tap his feet if they need to wake him because of his night terror responses.

Anecdotal?  Sure.  But I fear for our society.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 10:30:35 pm by Lando Lincoln »
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Offline happyg

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2014, 10:19:40 pm »
"And I've often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton?" - Cliven Bundy.

So, your point is that I have to hear what Sowell didn't say, and not hear what Bundy DID say?

That makes sense.

/sarcasm

By your quote, Bundy did not say they are better off as slaves, picking cotton. He only wondered if they are. There is a difference. I'm now done with the topic because I don't want to turn this into 200 posts  on the topic.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #42 on: April 28, 2014, 10:50:24 pm »
By your quote, Bundy did not say they are better off as slaves, picking cotton. He only wondered if they are. There is a difference. I'm now done with the topic because I don't want to turn this into 200 posts  on the topic.

The fact that he can even "wonder" that is absurd.
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Online mountaineer

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2014, 12:42:54 am »
Lando, you seem to have recounted an instance of the "knockout game," which the news media and various other apologists insist does not exist.
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2014, 12:51:13 am »
Lando, you seem to have recounted an instance of the "knockout game," which the news media and various other apologists insist does not exist.

And Lando is right to fear for our society.

With so many 'feral' children growing up without purpose, without guidance, without any form of morality, and with hearts filled with hatred coming from the lies told by leftist politicians and thugs like Sharpton and Jackson, how can we not?
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline rb224315

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #45 on: April 29, 2014, 01:03:07 am »
The fact that he can even "wonder" that is absurd.

And yet Dr. Sowell flat out says that the black family was better off back then.  Well, unless one considers disintegration to be progress.

"The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state."

My point in pushing the thread this far is not about slavery vs. welfare, it's about the fear the right has about being accused of racism. 

"An old white guy wondered if blacks did better during slave times than under the welfare state?  Racist!  I can't be associated with him."

"Dr. Thomas Sowell said something similar?  What??  He's black?!?!  Uhh, ahh, hmmmm . . . . That wasn't what Dr. Sowell said!  He didn't wonder if blacks fared better under slavery than under the welfare state!  He said the black family survived slavery and Jim Crow intact and disintegrated under the welfare state!  There's a huuuuuge difference!"

"Thanks for letting me prove I'm not a racist.  Whew!  That was close!"
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Online Lando Lincoln

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #46 on: April 29, 2014, 01:10:13 am »
Lando, you seem to have recounted an instance of the "knockout game," which the news media and various other apologists insist does not exist.

I have no doubt that he was a target.
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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2014, 01:13:18 am »
Lando wrote above:
[[ Anecdotal?  Sure.  But I fear for our society. ]]

Sooner or later, this is going to end. Can't say just how.

Perhaps once Obama's gone, the black-on-white attacks will be less frequent. I sense that with Obama in office, a lot of low-end blacks think it's "black rule time" and that they can get away with a lot more than they could in earlier days. (Aside: with Eric Holder in office, who has actually said he isn't interest in crime against whites, they're right.)

This is what happens when more than two generations of blacks have been brought up being taught from day one that whites are their "oppressors" and they ALL are "victims of racism". It's what happens when standards of both behavior and educational achievement are lowered to almost zero in public schools. It's what happens when for fifty years black females have been paid to stay home and have babies, the more babies the more money. It's what happens when an entire racial group is told they are "entitled", from affirmative action to Obamaphones.

That Navy Seal guy OUGHT to be angry. If he isn't, frankly, he's a fool.
And by the way, I have personally been attacked by blacks in a similar manner, even made the local papers here.

I have no "white guilt" any more and I don't care.
It's been beaten out of me.

I couldn't care less that blacks endured slavery. Doesn't matter to me one iota, nor should it matter to you. I didn't own slaves, nor did my parents or grandparents, who probably escaped very poor conditions when they emigrated from Poland in the 1920's.

The sniveling whites who still -care- about slavery -- they are the wellspring of "white guilt", and it is they through their self-hatred for the behavior of folks 150 years ago, that perpetuate the excuses made for contemptible black behavior such as that perpetrated on the Navy guy above.

Actually, I think what may really end such behavior and the justifications made for it will be when Hispanics grow larger in numbers, perhaps even eclipsing whites as a "majority" in America.

THEY don't have any "white guilt".
They aren't going to put up with the black nonsense as do whites now -- and blacks are going to find out about this -very- quickly...

Offline andy58-in-nh

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Re: Two people shot at National Zoo on African American Family Day
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2014, 03:22:53 am »
I'm just catching up here, owing to a new job that demands a great deal of my time and energy. I will try to address some of the issues raised here, as they are not merely important, but perhaps vital to the matter of our survival as a nation.

Fisherman wrote:

Andy, your writing is eloquent and noble, but did it ever occur to you that for some, it might be impossible to replace "the rules of the jungle" with the precepts of Western civilization ??

Well, in a word: yes. But that has always been the case. The difference today is that our dominant culture no longer subscribes to those precepts, and instead celebrates beliefs that both predate America's founding principles and which are often wholly antithetical to them. A great harm is being done especially to black communities and citizens, who have been cruelly encouraged to make of themselves permanent dependents rather than free citizens.

Progressives have sought to destroy each and every mediating institution by which Western civilization organized itself into a functional, if not always a harmonious society: families, neighborhoods, membership and fraternal groups, churches, synagogues, and charities.     

The Progressives' chief purpose has always been (and still remains) one of empowering the State and its elite power brokers by making dependents of all others, setting group against group and class against class; dividing in order to conquer. 

And so it has come to pass that in an effort to maintain and augment their power, Progressive liberals have used the false pretense of "compassion" to turn vast swaths of America's cities into havens of hopelessness, and districts of despair - while blaming Republicans and conservatives for the results of policies that they themselves advanced, and which their (hated) adversaries opposed.

Because the culture, its language and its transmission is so fully controlled by the Left, far too many victims of Progressivism remain deceived, morally confused, and compliant. But because mainstream Republican leaders have seen fit to protect their increasingly narrow bases of power rather than challenge the status quo, no serious national challenge to Progressivism has yet been mounted. Power corrupts, even as it wanes.

Black people deserve better. Americans deserve better. But our tragic human history suggests that we shall not get "better" until things fall apart, at which time, we are likely at first to get much worse.   


 * * *

As for Cliven Bundy: he is not in my estimation the sort of person of whom I would be tempted to make a hero.

As much as I instinctively sympathize with any person who must wrestle with our increasingly overbearing Federal government, and as much as I comprehend the human devastation brought about by the expansion of the welfare state, there is simply no excuse for favorably postulating a return to slavery as superior to the realities of modern inner-city life.

If there was ever a bigger "big government" program than slavery, I should like to hear of it.

Conservatives have no business trading in ignorance or bigotry; liberals have by now cornered the market on both, and we ought to make them painfully aware of it at every opportunity.   

To advance the notion that black people are entirely responsible for the state of their communities is to ignore the role of government, culture and education in promoting and shaping the values that define the acceptable bounds of human life. But to hold them entirely blameless for not resisting the cultural chains that shackle them would be to deny the abilities of human perception and of choice.

Perhaps if we all had leaders who promoted a vision of freedom, backed up by a philosophy that explained and justified its necessity, we might begin to find the courage to challenge those who only pretend to appeal to the best in all of us, while promoting the worst of our human instincts, for their own shallow benefit and no one else's. 
"The most terrifying force of death, comes from the hands of Men who wanted to be left Alone. They try, so very hard, to mind their own business and provide for themselves and those they love. They resist every impulse to fight back, knowing the forced and permanent change of life that will come from it. They know, that the moment they fight back, their lives as they have lived them, are over. -Alexander Solzhenitsyn