Hoax Exposed: NYT Edits Bundy Remarks

[Oceander]

Those inner city dependents will readily buy the explanation that the good government is watching out for them, by dealing with white racist ranchers out west, etc.

Thirsty Kool-Aid drinkers, IOW. The price they pay for their government dependency, is buying into the crap their leaders spew for their consumption. 90% =+ democrat voters, and holding.

However, it is very true that they also distrust/dislike the cops, the courts, and many of the agencies.  Democrats/progs avoid being tarred and feathered with this by posing always as the "outsider" struggling mightily against the forces of racism and bureaucracy to fight for the people.  Look at deblazio in NYC; he's a statist machine-man all the way, and corrupt to boot, but he's perfected the art of dissembling and making himself appear to be a "man of the people" struggling to right the wrongs done to the "little guy".

[EC]

Correct.

You know how to split a big log? You use wedges.

Distrust of the cops and the massive over reaction of the BLM is a wedge. Hammer it home.

[Luis Gonzalez]

All around the world, to greater and lesser  extents, some people are subsidized by various government provided safety net programs. That is the individual, subsistence level of participation.

On the other end of the scale, many comfortable farmers and ranchers, do very nicely on subsidies. Paid to not grow, price supports, grazing on publicly owned lands, etc.

Grazing one's herd on land they do not own (and have never owned), is certainly a subsidy.

So if "benefitting" from government subsidies makes one a slave, inner city blacks and Bundy are both willing slaves.

Merely attaching to different teats, of Big Mama Government.

Bundy is therefore not an attractive spokesman against subsidies, or the lifestyle of subsidy dependent people.

Refusing to pay grazing fees, further erodes Bundy's standing to criticize other dependents.

"Conservatism" has failed to reach beyond the usual choir, in any preaching on this topic. Won't gain voters in my opinion.

I am not worthy...

 

[SouthTexas]

I'll see your anecdotal and raise you one Zong massacre.

The Zong was a Liverpool-based slave ship who, as a result of navigational mistakes by the crew, was in danger of running out of drinking water before it reached its destination. In order for that not to happen, and for the 17-man crew not to suffer dehydration, 142 slaves, men, women and children were thrown overboard somewhere between Tobago and Jamaica.

The owners of the Zong had insured their "cargo", but that insurance would not pay for losses due to "natural causes" (such as starvation, or disease, or dying as a result of a beating), but if some of the "cargo" had to be jettisoned, then the claim would fall under the "general average" principle, which had all interested parties sharing in losses "from a voluntary sacrifice of part of the ship or cargo to save the whole in an emergency."

The British courts found that (in some cases) the deliberate killing of slaves was legal, and that the insurers were to pay the claims for the lost "cargo".

In the aftermath of a retrial that saw the earlier findings upheld, the deliberate killings found to be legal, and the insurance claims viable, the Earl of Mansfield remarked that the jury "had no doubt (though it shocks one very much) that the Case of Slaves was the same as if Horses had been thrown over board."
   

And that is my fault because?   As I noted, if slaves were all worked to death, beaten to an inch of their life, and thrown off ships at sea, the slavery issue would have long gone extinct in this country.  How long long should I pay for an issue I had nothing to do with?  Sad thing is there are still those that make their living off of slavery even though it hasn't been around in years.

That said, there are all types of slavery still in existence in this country.  The "old" version exists mainly overseas where nothing is ever said about it.  Here we have all kinds of addictions that in essence are self imposed slavery.  Granted some of the self imposed versions are used as excuses for bad behavior. 

[Luis Gonzalez]

And that is my fault because?   As I noted, if slaves were all worked to death, beaten to an inch of their life, and thrown off ships at sea, the slavery issue would have long gone extinct in this country.  How long long should I pay for an issue I had nothing to do with?  Sad thing is there are still those that make their living off of slavery even though it hasn't been around in years.

That said, there are all types of slavery still in existence in this country.  The "old" version exists mainly overseas where nothing is ever said about it.  Here we have all kinds of addictions that in essence are self imposed slavery.  Granted some of the self imposed versions are used as excuses for bad behavior.

There is no such thing as self-imposed slavery. The very idea of it flies at the face of the definition of the word.

You gave an anecdotal evidence to show how slavery was somehow benign, and I responded with a bit of history to show that there was nothing benign about it, all anecdotal evidence aside.

[EC]

There is no such thing as self-imposed slavery. The very idea of it flies at the face of the definition of the word.

You gave an anecdotal evidence to show how slavery was somehow benign, and I responded with a bit of history to show that there was nothing benign about it, all anecdotal evidence aside.

There has been, in the past. The villein system was essentially self imposed slavery. You traded your freedom for a plot of land and a place to live.

[SouthTexas]

Correct.

You know how to split a big log? You use wedges.

Distrust of the cops and the massive over reaction of the BLM is a wedge. Hammer it home.

A lumberjack too?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Correct.

You know how to split a big log? You use wedges.

Distrust of the cops and the massive over reaction of the BLM is a wedge. Hammer it home.

Article 1, Section 2 of the Nevada Constitution:

All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority.

Bundy is fighting his own "sovereign State of Nevada", he just doesn't seem to know it.

[SouthTexas]

There is no such thing as self-imposed slavery. The very idea of it flies at the face of the definition of the word.

You gave an anecdotal evidence to show how slavery was somehow benign, and I responded with a bit of history to show that there was nothing benign about it, all anecdotal evidence aside.

Ah but there is Luis, to say it doesn't is complete ignorance or you are using way to fine of a line for your definition.  If it's the later, all discussion on the subject can cease, it doesn't exist as it did in the South.  Of course, the South is the ONLY place slavery has ever existed according to the race baiters.


I noted a simple fact and you respond with something that is akin to wholesale slaughter to "prove" how bad it is.
And what would you call this? 
  http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trapped-in-scorching-trailer-18-die-2648170.php

These people actually PAID to get in this truck.

[EC]

A lumberjack too?

 

Grew up with a very temperamental half ton wood stove that Mom cooked on. We'd sleep next to it (my baby sister under it) on really cold nights. Spent a lot of my youth splitting wood and setting it to dry.

[Luis Gonzalez]

There has been, in the past. The villein system was essentially self imposed slavery. You traded your freedom for a plot of land and a place to live.

Thee is no self-imposed slavery, so long as you have the free choice to not enter into slavery.

You may wish to elevate being the beneficiary of government subsidies to the level of slavery, but one can always chose to NOT be the recipient of subsidies. Slaves lack the ability to decide to not be slaves.

If they tried, they could be beaten, maimed, or even killed.

If you don't see that difference, then I can't make you see it.

[EC]

Thee is no self-imposed slavery, so long as you have the free choice to not enter into slavery.

Seems to me that watching your family starve is a pretty powerful motivator that reduces your choice. And once you are in - well, getting out is pretty much impossible.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Ah but there is Luis, to say it doesn't is complete ignorance or you are using way to fine of a line for your definition.  If it's the later, all discussion on the subject can cease, it doesn't exist as it did in the South.  Of course, the South is the ONLY place slavery has ever existed according to the race baiters.


I noted a simple fact and you respond with something that is akin to wholesale slaughter to "prove" how bad it is.
And what would you call this? 
  http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Trapped-in-scorching-trailer-18-die-2648170.php

These people actually PAID to get in this truck.

I call it exactly what it is.

Murder.

The people in that trailer made the conscious choice to enter that trailer. THAT is the difference. The people who own the trailer cannot file an insurance claim to cover their losses (if any). No Court will rule in their favor.

The people in the cargo hold of the Zong were put in there against their will. All semblance of humanity was taken from them; they were (in the eyes of the Court) insurable cargo.

Those who eventually reached their destination, continued to be less than a human being, where the survivors of that 18-wheeler incident were taken to hospitals.

The owners of the Zong were compensated for their losses. According to your article, whoever is responsible for the deaths in that trailer may face the death penalty.

If you can't see the difference, I won't be able to help you see it.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Seems to me that watching your family starve is a pretty powerful motivator that reduces your choice. And once you are in - well, getting out is pretty much impossible.

There are tens of thousands of Cubans strewn about the bottom of the Florida Straits that will testify that there is always a way to not chose slavery.

[EC]

There are tens of thousands of Cubans strewn about the bottom of the Florida Straits that will testify that there is always a way to not chose slavery.

The operative word is bottom.

Give me liberty or give me death. Most people have an intense desire to keep breathing.

[Carling]

The operative word is bottom.

Give me liberty or give me death. Most people have an intense desire to keep breathing.

I'm not sure you understand what that quote means.   

[Luis Gonzalez]

I'm not sure you understand what that quote means.   

Exactly.

[olde north church]

There are also a lot of African-American men to whom prison is just a change in the scenery.  And white men.  And "hispanic" men.

[EC]

I'm not sure you understand what that quote means.   

I know exactly what it means. I also know people.

[Carling]

I know exactly what it means. I also know people.

Those fleeing Cuba choose either liberty or death.

[alicewonders]

Those fleeing Cuba choose either liberty or death.

I think the point made was that those escaping Cuba knew that their choice to TRY to make it to liberty was risky, and might cause their death - a risk they were willing to take.  There are, at the same time - many, many people who prefer to keep breathing and are not willing to risk their lives in the pursuit of freedom.  Those people - you could say, are living their lives under self-imposed slavery.

[Luis Gonzalez]

I think the point made was that those escaping Cuba knew that their choice to TRY to make it to liberty was risky, and might cause their death - a risk they were willing to take.  There are, at the same time - many, many people who prefer to keep breathing and are not willing to risk their lives in the pursuit of freedom.  Those people - you could say, are living their lives under self-imposed[/i] slavery.

No.

Slaves lack the ability to choose anything, other than death, over slavery.

[Carling]

Those people - you could say, are living their lives under self-imposed slavery.

That's still their choice, though.  There is a big difference between having a choice, and not having a choice.

[SouthTexas]

Grew up with a very temperamental half ton wood stove that Mom cooked on. We'd sleep next to it (my baby sister under it) on really cold nights. Spent a lot of my youth splitting wood and setting it to dry.

We grew up with gas heat and only cut wood when we went hunting.  Not that many trees in this part of the world, they had to figure out something else to burn a long time ago.

[alicewonders]

No.

Slaves lack the ability to choose anything, other than death, over slavery.

Luis, you seem obsessively pre-occupied with the strict interpretation of the word "slave".  Apparently, no one's definition but yours is acceptable.  Since you insist on being pedantic about it, I thought I would present a dictionary meaning of the word:

World English Dictionary
slave  (sleɪv)
 
— n
1.   a person legally owned by another and having no freedom of action or right to property
2.   a person who is forced to work for another against his will
3.   a person under the domination of another person or some habit or influence: a slave to television
4.   a person who works in harsh conditions for low pay
5.   a. a device that is controlled by or that duplicates the action of another similar device (the master device)
    b. ( as modifier ): slave cylinder

As you can see, the definition of "slave" is not as narrowly defined as you keep telling us it is.  From the dictionary meaning, a person can be a "slave" to heroin - something in which he HAS A CHOICE.  There are many forms of slavery - not all of them involve a person being shackled and unable to move.  Even on the plantation - slaves made attempts to escape while they worked the fields - or in the dark of night - ALWAYS with the threat of beating or death if they were caught and returned.  But many slaves still managed to escape - the city I live in has a house that was used for the "underground tunnel" that slaves escaped through to the north and to freedom. 

I think there are some that would agree with me - that this microscopic attention paid to what a slave can or cannot be - and that everyone that disagrees with you is just flat out wrong on the subject has gone on TOO LONG.  Let's end it.  OK?  Step away from the keyboard - take a walk or something.  Yes, I'll be the one to say it - if I had a choice to be a "real" slave in the sense of a black on the plantation - or a "virtual" slave trapped on welfare ............................ I would pick the virtual slave because I could free myself from that much, much easier.  Being a virtual slave is NO comparison to the other kind - I don't think anyone has a disagreement on that.