Bundy stands by his 'better off' as slaves comments

[speekinout]

So???  I know the history of slavery in the US.

And trust me, no one kidnapped, put in shackles, packed in the hold of ships, body next to body, still in chains, and sold on the market, northern Europeans.

Again.............just because the left has distorted the subject and used it falsely, and the white leftists have created a ridiculously false white guilt, doesn't excuse the denial of what really happened here.

If you know history, then you know that the word "slave" comes from slavic; the people who were the first slaves.
And you also know that many Europeans came here as indentured servants - those were slaves with a time limit.
So plenty of Europeans knew something about being slaves.

[musiclady]

Inner city blacks are choosing that? Maybe a few are, but exactly how do you see a choice for them? What future is there for an uneducated person with no job skills? Esp. if that person is a young woman with a child or two or three...

There are plenty of individuals who have been able, by choice, to overcome poverty. I didn't say (don't twist words, please) that people chose to be in poverty.  I said that there are choices available to them to get out of their circumstances.  There was no such choice for Africans sold into slavery.

We can quibble over the word 'choice' and what it means, but it is not a valid argument to say that being in an inner city in the US with ways available to extricate oneself, is the same as being beaten to a pulp by someone who OWNS you.

(And I do know how horrific life is in the inner city, but worse than slavery?  Not even close).

[speekinout]

The historical TRUTH is that they were put there on purpose, with malice and forethought , by Lyndon Baines Johnson for the sole puropse of "having those n*ggers vote democrat for the next two hundred years"

True. And he did know what he was doing, didn't he?

[Bigun]

True. And he did know what he was doing, didn't he?

OH yeah! It has worked to perfection!

[musiclady]

If you know history, then you know that the word "slave" comes from slavic; the people who were the first slaves.
And you also know that many Europeans came here as indentured servants - those were slaves with a time limit.
So plenty of Europeans knew something about being slaves.

Oh, for heaven's sake!  We're not talking about indentured servitude (which was voluntary, and temporary).  We're talking about forced slavery that lasted for centuries.

Name me one Swede who came to the colonies in 1650 as a slave and whose family were still slaves in 1850.

You KNOW that's a spurious argument.

[alicewonders]

This is what real slavery looks like:




That you would even countenance equating "virtual slavery" with that is disturbing.

Why don't you try explaining that to a small child in Chicago that has to run a gauntlet just to make it home alive after school?  Can you honestly say the quality of his little life is so much better?

I don't get mad very often here - but I'm going to say something.  How dare YOU and some of these other posters insinuate that the fact that I happen to think that the situation in today's black community is very dire, and that I liken it to a form of slavery all on it's own - how dare you insinuate that I equate - and therefore lessen the evil of one human owning another human being?

YOU and these others - do you really think that I and others condone SLAVERY in any shape, form or fashion?  Don't you dare talk down to me like that!  For God's sake - No. One. Is. Saying. Slavery. Is. Not.  EVIL.  This "attitude" that you have to "explain" this to me is extremely offensive to me!  NO ONE is defending slavery of ANY kind! 

If people here don't know me any better than that.........................I can't even say the words I am thinking right now.  I am done with this conversation - if I could, I would slam the door in your face! 

 

[musiclady]

But please don't neglect the fact that the VAST majority of them were sold to the northern Europeans in the first place by their BLACK African neighbors!

Of course I know that.  Good grief, people!

That doesn't change the basic facts that Africans were shipped, starved and even dumped overboard on vile, filthy slave ships and sold at auctions in the US, and beaten by their owners.

Why do you think John Newton called himself a "wretch" in the song he penned, "Amazing Grace?"

Because his part in slavery caused him guilt that never left him until he died.  God forgave him, but he never forgave himself for the EVIL that he did to innocent blacks.

As for LBJ, I completely agree that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing in creating a new 'plantation' by signing the CRA.  But that still does not excuse the white washing of what slavery really was.

[alicewonders]

That goes for you too, musiclady!!!

[musiclady]

That goes for you too, musiclady!!!

I haven't said a word to you, alice.  I haven't even read what you've said.

If you don't like what I've said to others, there's not much I can do to correct it, is there?

[musiclady]

That goes for you too, musiclady!!!

btw, I just read what you said above and completely agree that life for kids in inner city Chicago is dire, and they should never, EVER be 'running the gauntlet' for their lives.

And it is totally the fault of leftist policies and the racism of the welfare state.

So do we just disagree on the one point that it is not as bad as slavery (and you think it is?)

As I said, I haven't read your perspective, and I respect you, so if you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.

[Luis Gonzalez]

Nothing new about that! It's one of their trademarks!

Sorry Bigun, he's an ignorant idiot.

Whoever Pat Dollard is, he (or she) is just as big an idiot:

It is 100% clear that Cliven Bundy is not saying that blacks should be slaves picking cotton, but that the Federal government has created conditions for them so terrible, that their current situation may actually be worse. (If you are person of low intelligence, the fact that that is his point might be too hard for you to understand.)

What's with that last sentence?

Is English Dollard's second language?

Dollard doubles down on Bundy's stupidity, then calls others stupid for seeing the point that he (or she) is missing:

Here it is:

"... their current situation may actually be worse."

Really?

Let's start with one safe assumption.

There are very few, if any, people in the United States that can have a proper conversation about how it felt like to be a slave.

Not Bundy, not Pat Dollard, not Al Sharpton, not Barack Obama.

What it is that we do know about slavery, is so foul, so vile and so evil that while we may all be able to imagine what being a slave may have felt like, none of us can come close to understanding what being a slave actually felt like.

If anyone reading doesn't have a full understanding of the depths of the evil that is slavery, I suggest that you may want to do some reading.

For Bundy to suggest that "their" current situation may actually be worse today than it was when "they" were being sold, bred, beaten, raped, branded, and dumped overboard as excess chained baggage, exposes an astounding level of ignorance, and (or) his abject callousness and lack of humanity.

... they were better off then.

That's what this moron is saying.

Iago in a Stetson lacking the eloquence.

Bundy needs to stop his vacuous soliloquy and crawl back under whatever sun-bleached rock it is that he's been living his antebellum fantasies under. He is damaging the cause that he claims to espouse.

When this is all said and done, the one thing that Cliven Bundy will get credit for, is saving the left the time and energy that it would have taken them to invent a Cliven Bundy.   

[musiclady]

Interesting side note......

The tune of the hymn "Amazing Grace," written by a former slave-trader, saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, while often credited as "American" is actually written on a pentatonic scale......one used in Africa......and more likely was a tune that Newton heard from the slaves, chained in the ship's cargo hold, while he was bringing them to be sold at auction, and owned by masters.  ("American" tunes were written in the modes of their European roots, not on the five note scale of Africa and Asia).

[EC]

There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.

You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.

[musiclady]

There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.

You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.

Actually, there are more slaves currently in the world than there were at the time of the Civil War.

And you can tell some of them by the brick kilns and quarries (among others) where they live and work in for their masters.  Only, unlike American slaves, they are "disposable people."  Plenty more where they came from, so if they die in their slavery, the owners just find more......

[Luis Gonzalez]

There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.

You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.

There are not many of them left any more. It's been nearly 70 years since the end of the war.

[alicewonders]

btw, I just read what you said above and completely agree that life for kids in inner city Chicago is dire, and they should never, EVER be 'running the gauntlet' for their lives.

And it is totally the fault of leftist policies and the racism of the welfare state.

So do we just disagree on the one point that it is not as bad as slavery (and you think it is?)

As I said, I haven't read your perspective, and I respect you, so if you could clarify, I'd appreciate it.

I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off!  Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing. 

Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country?  You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation". 

I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means.  That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang. 

The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016.  The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission.  Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!

Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic.  The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL!  This is the enemy!

 

[happyg]

I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off!  Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing. 

Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country?  You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation". 

I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means.  That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang. 

The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016.  The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission.  Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!

Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic.  The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL!  This is the enemy!

 

 

[Luis Gonzalez]

I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off!  Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing. 

Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country?  You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation". 

I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means.  That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang. 

The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016.  The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission.  Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!

Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic.  The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL!  This is the enemy!

 

Bundy is ignorant, not necessarily evil.

He's out of touch with the world outside the confines of his ranch.

One does not need to be sophisticated or enlightened to understand that suggesting that "Negroes" may have been better off as slaves because it taught them a trade and gave them a more stable family life, is a sign of massive ignorance and racial condescension.

[musiclady]

I think that the almost hysterical hyperbole that you, Loki and others are engaging some of us in - that one kind of slavery is miles worse than another kind of slavery - is kind of like saying having your leg cut off is so much worse than having your arm cut off!  Like I said, try telling that black child in Chicago, "Hey, at least you're not chained up and beaten, owned by another human being" - although in some houses, children are having to endure that very same thing. 

Do you know there are many, many children sold into human trafficking - right here in this country?  You say that poor blacks have the option to leave that terrible city....I would say that it would be almost as difficult for some of them to do so as it would be for them to try to "escape the plantation". 

I am offended that you feel you need to "explain" the evil of slavery to those of us that insist of saying that we don't think Bundy is an evil racist - that we think the media is using him for their own EVIL (and I mean TRULY evil) means.  That we think Mr. Bundy is an old man from a different generation that says things that ever-so-enlightened-modern-sophisticated-people equate to condoning slavery and that these enlightened people must explain it to us bigots that think it's no big thang. 

The fact that we're having this conversation tells me that there ain't no way in hell we're going to win any elections this fall or in 2016.  The liberal progressive media has completely succeeded in tearing us apart - we are, and we will remain "slaves" until we stop letting the media scare us into submission.  Well, I refuse to be shackled by political correctness and the palpable fear of being called a racist any longer!

Screw the distractions all to hell people - get back on topic.  The government is too big, too powerful, too greedy, too power-hungry, TOO EVIL!  This is the enemy!

 

First, there has not been one bit of either 'hysteria,' nor 'hyperbole' in any of my words.

Second, I understand, and have said before, that what is happening in black communities now is horrid, and it is the result of depravity and leftist politics and racism.

Third, I wasn't 'explaining' slavery to you.  I was explaining what it was to anyone who didn't think it was such a big deal (look back, alice.  You'll see it).

Fourth, I don't suffer from any delusions about what the left will do with this mess.  I don't suffer from any form of white guilt (my ancestors were Vikings.  They enslaved and killed everyone.  ), but Bundy is the one whose words are bizarre and inexcusable, and I don't see accusing those of us who think that as being patsies of the left is helpful either.

Lastly, I repeat what I have said before.  Racism exists, on both sides.  I believe it is mostly on the left, but I believe that blaming the left for Bundy's lousy words is evading the issue.  I believe that we need to stand up against racism (the real thing) anywhere it exists.

I don't believe in defending the indefensible.

I never will.

(And I KNOW who the enemy is.  But having spirited discussions where we disagree is not acceding anything to them).

[Luis Gonzalez]

There are still a load of people who can tell you exactly what being a slave is like.

You can tell them by the tattooed numbers on their right arms.

BTW, there is a subtle yet very massive distinction between being a slave and being a Jew in a Nazi death camp, and to a degree, equating one to the other is demeaning to those Jews who spent time or died in Nazi death camps.

Slaves were property, valuable property to their owners.

Nazis didn't see a Jew's life as having even the most minimal value.

[evadR]

Black people still are slaves, just a different kind of chains. Just like in the old days when their own tribal leaders sold them out, today their own people sell them out for personal gain. Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, Wright, et al are nothing more than modern day slave traders.
Oh sure, there's the 5% that break their bonds, the Carsons, Thomas's, Wests, but they are few in numbers. For the most part, black people are happy to remain on the plantation.
Bundy is right, he just said it poorly.

[Carling]

There is no sanitized version when a person says a race of people had it better as slaves than they do now.

I honestly can't believe that people are still trying to defend this outlaw.

[Carling]

So he didn't phrase it well, but what did he say that conservatives object to?

Gee, hmm, ummm ... how about when he inferred that blacks had it better as slaves?

[Carling]

The shackles of the mind can be just as powerful as REAL shackles.  How many blacks still think they are oppressed

How many blacks today are owned as property, and treated as sub-human?

I must be going crazy, because I can't see anyway in which Bundy's beliefs on this can be defended.  If he wanted to make a nuanced comment, and didn't mean what he said quite literally, he's had plenty of time to "clarify" on how he "misspoke."

[evadR]

There is no sanitized version when a person says a race of people had it better as slaves than they do now.

I honestly can't believe that people are still trying to defend this outlaw.

But we can believe that the mainstream media would misrepresent what he said, can't we?