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Online mystery-ak

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Stop dressing so tacky for church
« on: April 20, 2014, 08:47:49 AM »
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/19/stop-dressing-so-tacky-for-church/?hpt=hp_c2

 April 19th, 2014
08:00 PM ET
Stop dressing so tacky for church

By John Blake, CNN

(CNN) - If the Rev. John DeBonville could preach a sermon to lift the souls of churchgoers across America, his message would be simple:

Stop dressing so tacky for church.

DeBonville has heard about the “come as you are” approach to dressing down for Sunday service, but he says the Sabbath is getting too sloppy.

When he scans the pews of churches, DeBonville sees rows of people dressed in their Sunday worst. They saunter into church in baggy shorts, flip-flop sandals, tennis shoes and grubby T-shirts. Some even slide into the pews carrying coffee in plastic foam containers as if they’re going to Starbucks.

“It’s like some people decided to stop mowing the lawn and then decided to come to church,” says DeBonville, rector at the Church of the Good Shepard in Massachusetts. “No one dresses up for church anymore.”

All of you folks visiting church this Easter Sunday take a good look around. Soak in the Easter tradition of people wearing their best new outfits for church: The fidgety girls in pink dresses; the pouting boys in stiff new suits; everyone looking all fine and dandy. Because come next Sunday, the people wearing flip-flop sandals, shorts and grubby T-shirts will rise again.

Church leaders like DeBonville have harrumphed about declining dress standards for Sunday service for years, while others say God only cares what’s in someone’s heart.

But which side is right? What does the Bible actually say about dressing properly for church? And does Jesus provide fashion advice anywhere? Wasn’t he a homeless, Galilean peasant who wore flip-flops?

The answers to these questions are not as easy as they may seem. The Bible sends mixed messages about the concept of wearing your Sunday best. And when pastors, parishioners and religious scholars were asked the same questions, they couldn’t agree, either.

continued...

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Online EC

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2014, 08:55:11 AM »
The Lord judges what is in, not what is on your skin.
Anyone who tells you you can't buy happiness has never been in a book store or an animal shelter.

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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2014, 09:00:10 AM »
Quote
“It’s like some people decided to stop mowing the lawn and then decided to come to church”
Not a bad decision. I'd like to see more people decide to stop going to Little League or other youth sports activities, playing golf, sleeping in or just about anything else Sunday morning in favor of going to church - no matter what they're wearing (except, maybe, for PJs).
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 10:13:11 AM »
The religious love to judge, while specifically told not to. 
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 10:36:15 AM »
The religious love to judge, while specifically told not to.

There is a line I used once:

"Judge not, lest you be judged. God is busy so he sent me."  :tongue2:

People love to judge. Religious, irreligious, anti-religious. They all do it.

Forgive them, for they know not what they do.
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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 01:27:28 PM »
The only dress I find inappropriate is that which is immodest.

Anything else is fine, as per Scriptural command.

In our church, we go from suits and ties to jean shorts and T's, and that's just fine with me, because we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and are there to worship HIM.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

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Offline jmyrlefuller

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2014, 02:08:06 PM »
If the weather is particularly hot on a Sunday morning, sometimes I have no choice but to wear a Hawaiian shirt, shorts and sandals. Church is a mile away and I typically have to walk there.

I have otherwise typically followed "smart casual" or "business casual" for church functions. Blue jeans (if well-maintained) or khakis and a button-down shirt with a modest pattern typically suffices. I will dress somewhat more formal for occasions such as Good Friday (when I wear all-black and long sleeves). I rarely ever wear a tie (my neck is far too wide to button most dress shirts at the top; hence, why I frequently wear Hawaiian shirts).
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2014, 02:12:58 PM »
I'm old enough to remember when the old Italian, Polish or Irish ladies wore head dresses and dresses to the floor!
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2014, 02:32:13 PM »
The Lord judges what is in, not what is on your skin.
Indeed, but what is on the skin is often indicative of what is within.
STILL a proud supporter of the Free Conservative Resistance (no affiliation with the left-wing "Resistance")

"Just because people in positions of authority are stupid, it doesn’t mean you have to go along with it." —Arlo Guthrie

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2014, 03:03:44 PM »
I'm old enough to remember when the old Italian, Polish or Irish ladies wore head dresses and dresses to the floor!
Only one little girl at church this morning had an Easter bonnet. Some of us were remembering when all of us girls - and the women, too - had new hats for Easter morning. (That's something I don't miss).
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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2014, 06:41:47 PM »
Only one little girl at church this morning had an Easter bonnet. Some of us were remembering when all of us girls - and the women, too - had new hats for Easter morning. (That's something I don't miss).

And don't forget the white gloves and patent leather Mary Janes to go with our dresses and bonnets.

Nope.  Don't miss those days a bit!   ^-^
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline Rivergirl

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2014, 07:43:26 PM »
Had this conversation nearly 50 years ago   The response was that they would rather have attendance at Church and not focus on the clothing.

Thought it showed a lack of respect then and I still have the same impression.

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2014, 08:00:33 PM »
We had two little ones at evening Mass today, dressed to the 9s. Every single parishioner complemented them - including a guy in stained tracksuit bottoms and a ripped T shirt.
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2014, 09:52:32 AM »
Another viewpoint from the blog of the Institute on Religion and Democracy:
Quote
Dressing Down For Church
 by Mark Tooley  December 10, 2013   



This blog is NOT about the plagiarism charges against Seattle pastor Mark Driscoll, pictured above, whose impressive effectiveness as teacher and evangelist for orthodox Christianity especially among young people in a very secular region deserves admiration and replication. His Mars Hill Church’s recent acquisition of a majestic former Methodist sanctuary in Seattle, a congregation that had liberalized and withered, having previously sold their stately 1300 seat church to a developer, vividly illustrates how counter cultural faith is far more dynamic than the cultural conformity of dying once Mainline Protestantism.

But this blog is about the photo that has accompanied some stories about the plagiarism charges. Why is an intelligent, serious pastor and spiritual leader of a multiple congregational movement appearing in a sanctuary wearing ripped jeans?! Why is his shirt not tucked in?! Where is his tie? Why does a pastor want to look almost like a vagrant?

In fairness to Driscoll, his pastoral dress is not entirely unusual in the evangelical world, although I have not seen many preachers in church with holes in their jeans. Maybe dressing down is effective outreach for audiences unaccustomed to church formality. But most in these same audiences probably still dress up for weddings, funerals, graduations and events they regard as significant. Evidently worship no longer counts as that significant to merit respectful dress.

It once was a redeeming quality for traditional once Mainline Protestant churches that, whatever their other deficiencies, they offered a respectful, traditional worship atmosphere, with clergy and parishioners dressed formally. Increasingly this seriousness is less and less common, and I sometimes see worshippers dressed similar to Driscoll in this photo. Usually I see only a handful wearing a coat and tie at my own church and other Methodist churches where I attend, a big shift from just a few years ago. Recently I was asked to be an usher at a church I visited, my only apparent virtue as a stranger apparently being that I was among the very few in a suit.

An elderly woman in my church has recalled that her father, when pastor of the church in the 1940s, had been the last minister to appear in the pulpit wearing a frock coat and not a robe. Apparently not until well into the 20th Century did Methodist clergy start wearing robes, previously wearing dark suits. Francis Asbury, founding bishop of American Methodism, was famous for crisscrossing the American frontier in his dark suit, which naturally got frayed. John Wesley reputedly preached often to outdoor crowds in the robe of an Anglican clergy.

The largest church in the neighborhood of my church is an historic black Baptist congregation. Their traffic creates a small traffic jam on Sunday mornings. And as I pass their parishioners walking from their parked cars they are always formally dressed, men and women, all ages. This particular church is pretty well to do. But as a black seminary president recently explained to me, historically black people who were not well off saw church as their most important experience of the week and dressed accordingly. I’ve noticed that worshippers at immigrant Hispanic evangelical churches are often dressed very formally, probably for similar reasons.

Shouldn’t church be the most important event of the week for everybody, at least as important as a wedding or other celebration?

English politician and thinker Daniel Hannan, in his excellent new book Inventing Freedom: How the English-Speaking Peoples Made the Modern World, notes the English aren’t known for any distinctive folk costume because their dress, the men’s business suit, became the global norm for formal wear. He also notes that American jeans became the global norm for casual wear.

The dark business suit was refined in the Victorian era. Its serious sobriety displaced the colorful plumed foppery that had for centuries characterized men’s clothing, at least for upper classes. It was the product of Victorian piety, itself the descendant of 18th Century Wesleyan revivalism, and the 17th Century’s Puritans, themselves known for dark, understated apparel. The suit was the great equalizer, as it was worn by tenant farmers and kings, conveying equal respectability and seriousness for all.

One of the great photos is of JFK famously addressing the Houston Ministerial Association in 1960, standing before an auditorium filled with clergy in dark suits and white shirts. The imagery conveys depth of purpose that a crowd of jeans and tee shirts could not.

Of course, we don’t really know how the early church or Apostles dressed in worship. But the Apostles did call for orderliness and respectfulness that was conducive to solemnity and holiness.

There is somewhat of a trend in evangelical Christianity towards greater liturgy and formality of worship. Maybe that trend will include more formal attire in worship. If so, it will convey a growing maturity for the evangelical world that is both sartorial and at least subliminally spiritual.

I hope Mark Driscoll has many decades of fruitful preaching ahead that will also include his tucking in his shirt and putting on a tie!
Prior to joining the IRD in 1994, Mark Tooley worked eight years for the Central Intelligence Agency as an analyst. He is a graduate of Georgetown University and is a native of Arlington, Virginia. A lifelong United Methodist, he has been active in United Methodist renewal since 1988, when he wrote a study about denominational funding of pro-Marxist groups for his local congregation ...
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2014, 10:30:52 AM »
The Protestant demoninations are hollow. 
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2014, 10:39:48 AM »
People are dressing tacky for everything, or haven't you noticed?
"She only coughs when she lies."

Offline mountaineer

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2014, 10:42:49 AM »
The Protestant demoninations are hollow.
Not sure what your comment means.
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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2014, 12:15:41 PM »
People are dressing tacky for everything, or haven't you noticed?

True enough.

I'll never forget going back to a wonderful Boston restaurant after a decade or so.  It had had a dress code when my husband and I went there, so when we took our kids, we made them dress up.

I was horrified to see people there in shorts, crummy looking T-shirts and ball caps.  And there we were with our four young kids, looking spiffy enough to go to a well-dressed church.

It's a sign of something in our culture, but I'm not sure what...........
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2014, 12:16:49 PM »
Not sure what your comment means.

It's an incorrect comment, if you're in a Christ-centered church...... of which there are plenty.

Nothing "hollow" about the Gospel.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2014, 12:27:05 PM »
It's an incorrect comment, if you're in a Christ-centered church...... of which there are plenty.

Nothing "hollow" about the Gospel.

That is the big thing. There are plenty of churches that seem to be more style over substance. It's not just the Protestant churches either - I've been in Catholic churches where the congregation were more interested in each others hats than Mass.
Anyone who tells you you can't buy happiness has never been in a book store or an animal shelter.

You are the result of 3 billion years of evolutionary success. Act like it.

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2014, 12:37:48 PM »
That is the big thing. There are plenty of churches that seem to be more style over substance. It's not just the Protestant churches either - I've been in Catholic churches where the congregation were more interested in each others hats than Mass.

It's not just the "big" thing................it's the "only" thing.  :laugh:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online EC

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2014, 12:55:41 PM »
It's not just the "big" thing................it's the "only" thing.  :laugh:

Yep!  :laugh:

Our priest, like most good pastors I've seen, sets the tone. He says you are there to celebrate our Lord. You can do that wearing anything or nothing. No one has taken him up on the "nothing" bit yet, though some of the, shall we say, working girls get a bit close sometimes!!!  :laugh:

Most of our congregation are tradespeople. It's not uncommon to see a well dressed woman and neatly dressed children sitting with a man with grease smears on his hands and face, since he came rushing to Mass straight from work. At least 2 of our congregation are living on the streets (out of choice - they know there is both hostel rooms and plenty of guest rooms waiting for them) so they tend not to be well dressed.

I know dressing well for church is a mark of respect to both the church and your fellow parishioners, but being there is more important.
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Offline Oceander

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2014, 01:06:34 PM »
People are dressing tacky for everything, or haven't you noticed?


Very true.  My pops commented on that 30 years ago and it's only gotten worse with time.  I don't really care to go back to the days of yore when everyone wore formal clothes everywhere, but I do think things have gone a little too far, particularly with many women who seem to feel that dressing like a street walker is appropriate attire for any occasion.  Honestly, though, I think I'd rather see folks in church wearing baggy shorts and t-shirts, or jeans with holes in the knees, than some of the 16 to 20 year old girls I've seen strutting into church with everything wrapped for maximum seductive effect.  That is, I think, tacky (to say the least) because it doesn't indicate a lack of thought about what one's wearing, it indicates studied attention to wearing the wrong attire to church.  I really have no idea why their parents, who are with them, fail to say anything whatsoever (except for those whose mommies are dressed as inappropriately as they).

Offline olde north church

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2014, 07:44:21 PM »
Not sure what your comment means.

Satan was the first "disgruntled" employee.  Martin Luther the second.  Peter is the rock upon which Christ built His church.  Not Henry, Martin or Calvin.  Anything else is hollow.
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Offline mountaineer

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Re: Stop dressing so tacky for church
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2014, 07:57:15 PM »
Sorry, still don't get it, ONC, but then I have a hard time grasping overly broad generalizations.

As an elder in a mainline denomination (not demonination) for which I have little to no respect, I do agree that many of the denominations have strayed from fundamental, orthodox Christianity. They truly are "hollow," in the sense that their core is not Jesus Christ but some invented social/political gospel.  It is my intention to do whatever I can to remove my  little church from this ridiculously overly-bureaucratic and left-leaning denomination.

Fortunately, many local congregations within those denominations still adhere to the truth of the Bible anyway, which defeats the generalization. Not all Presbyterian or Methodist churches are hollow, for example, no matter what socialist path their denominational leadership may be taking.

As for dressing tacky, my experience is that most loving, believing Christian congregations don't care what you're wearing - they just want you to learn about Jesus and will welcome you into fellowship. At the same time, I believe that a member of a congregation should dress respectfully, especially the pastor (as in the Mark Tooley article I posted).
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