Author Topic: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy  (Read 5217 times)

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Offline rangerrebew

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Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« on: April 18, 2014, 06:32:29 AM »
« Last Edit: April 18, 2014, 06:33:55 AM by rangerrebew »
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Offline massadvj

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2014, 07:18:47 AM »
It's a valid point.  The government taking a purchased land right is no different than the government taking away land, and at the very least Bundy is entitled to just compensation.  There is also the question of whether protecting turtles is a legitimate "public use."

If we don't fight for the Bundys of the world, sooner or later they come for us.
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Offline EC

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2014, 07:24:39 AM »
Last I heard, cows don't eat turtles.

They are careful about what they step on, as well.
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Offline olde north church

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2014, 07:36:15 AM »
First they came for the ranchers,
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline NavyCanDo

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2014, 09:57:51 AM »
A nation that turns away from prayer will ultimately find itself in desperate need of it. :Jonathan Cahn

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2014, 10:09:02 AM »
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNGJXDuLkdI" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNGJXDuLkdI</a>

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2014, 10:10:28 AM »
Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

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Offline Fishrrman

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2014, 10:33:16 PM »
I put up multiple posts about this a couple of days ago, and they were pretty much ignored or discounted by the "deputy dawgs" here who repeatedly mouth the mantra that Bundy "broke the law", etc.

See:
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,135512.msg554837.html#msg554837
and
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,135512.msg554853.html#msg554853
and
http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,135512.msg555005.html#msg555005

Looks like Bundy witnessed the BLM drive the other ranchers in his area out of business by forcing them to sign "agreements" that were purposely designed to PUT them out of the ranching business.

Mr. Bundy refused, for good reason.

The agreements were proffered by the BLM to create a situation of duress from which Mr. Bundy had but two choices: sign, and be forced to walk a pathway towards economic bankruptcy, or... don't sign and be shut down by force of law.

Which would YOU prefer?

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2014, 12:08:41 AM »
It's a valid point.  The government taking a purchased land right is no different than the government taking away land, and at the very least Bundy is entitled to just compensation.  There is also the question of whether protecting turtles is a legitimate "public use."

If we don't fight for the Bundys of the world, sooner or later they come for us.

Bundy does not recognize the US Constitution. In his own words, he doesn't "recognize the United States government as even existing", which translates, any way that you look at it into not recognizing the U.S. Constitution, since that is the instrument that created the United States government. Worthy of note is that Cliven Bundy and the Bundy clan have been paying their fees for the 59 years leading up to 1993 to the very same government that today he doesn't acknowledge as even existing, without protesting its legitimacy.

He doesn't recognize the legitimacy of own State's Constitution. It stopped suiting him the moment that his grazing fees went up in 1993.

He doesn't really recognize the authority of the County that he resides him. They've repeatedly told him that they can't accept his grazing fees payment, and that he needs to make those payments to the BLM, but he will not do that.

He doesn't recognize our Court system, nor will he abide by the Court's decisions since he doesn't agree with them, and in doing that he once again he shows his disregard for our Constitution.

It his his State's Constitution that transferred the land to the Federal government long before the Bundys arrived in Nevada.

It is the US Constitution that gives the United States the power to manage those lands that are the property of the United States.

It is the US Constitution that gives the judiciary power to our Court system.

Our system of government requires that we all acknowledge the Constitution as the Supreme law of the land. It requires that we all accept laws that have been implemented in accordance to Constitutional requirements and that we live by the, lest we are willing to accept the consequences of not doing so.

We must all accept the Constitutional role of the Courts, and accept its mandates. The Constitution guarantees due process, not outcome, and Cliven Bundy has gotten due process.

If we in fact fall behind Cliven Bundy and make him to be some sort of American patriot, then we are cementing in place the idea that we can ALL disregard the US Constitution, the US Courts, the State and County governments, Court mandates and any sort of authority that doesn't suit us.

It is absurd to argue that what we need to do in order to return ourselves to a nation of laws, is to support an individual who doesn't believe in any law outside his own, and if Cliven Bundy has a right to all the things that he believes he has a right to, even though those things are unsupported by the Constitution, the applicable laws, and the Courts, then Sandra Fluke is equally right in believing that she has a right to the things she believes that she has a right to, because she can't have lesser rights than Cliven Bundy simply because we don't agree with her. As an extension, then we all have a right to everything that we think we all have a right to, since none of us would have to abide by any law, any Court, or any Constitution. Then  no Constitution, law or Court would ever be sustainable.

There are a lot of things wrong with our government... a lot of things. But as that stupid old saying goes, two wrongs a right do not make.

Let me tell you what I think is going to happen here.

Cliven Bundy will be broken by the US Government.

They will do it legally if they can, violently if they have no other choice.

The government will do that for the very same reason that George Washington sent out 13,000 militia to put down the Whiskey Rebellion in 1794. In Washington's own words, he could not allow "a small portion of the United States [to] dictate to the whole union". As much as he regretted doing so, Washington understood that in order for the United States to stand, he couldn't allow people to openly disregard duly enacted laws, and disregard the legitimacy of the Federal government.

The people who revolted against the US in Washington's time were every but as passionate about their cause as Bundy and his followers are today, and the United States is no more willing (or able) to allow Bundy's Rebellion to stand today, than it was willing to allow the Whiskey Rebellion to stand then.

Things may very well change in the aftermath of the Bundy Rebellion, but they probably won't change in a way that makes the Federal government weaker, and Cliven Bundy will not win this battle.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 12:11:48 AM by Luis Gonzalez »

Offline massadvj

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2014, 07:26:23 AM »
There are many things that are "constitutional" that I do not support.  The income tax, for example.  There are also many things that have been promulgated by rule of law that I have opposed.  Obamacare, for example.  In both of these cases, the fact that something has been litigated does not make it right.  I dare say, what is the point of free speech if we are expected to support everything done in our name?  If Cliven Bundy was where he is because he refused to pay his income taxes, I'd probably still support him.  That doesn't mean I refuse to pay my taxes.  It simply means I am philosophically opposed to income taxes and admire and support those who choose to pay a price to stand up to tyranny.

Government at all levels has been overreaching when it comes to property seizure.  Bundy is one of many victims of it.  I am not going to keep my mouth shut just because he went to court and lost. 

As to your fear of government heavy-handedness and the aftermath, if the federal government rolls tanks over Bundy and his family, it will wake up a lot of people who are dozing right now.  The repercussions will be felt in the 2014 midterms, and they will be decidedly anti-establishment.   
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 07:33:16 AM by massadvj »
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Offline evadR²

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2014, 09:06:53 AM »
First they came for the ranchers,
LOL...YES!
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline evadR²

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2014, 09:14:09 AM »
We have a president of this country that doesn't recognize the constitution who's lawlessness knows no bounds. 
It's no wonder that people side with Bundy against this lawless bunch, even IF he isn't perfectly clean himself.
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline EC

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2014, 09:23:55 AM »
People will always root for the underdog, and are suspicious and fearful of faceless organizations.
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Online Bigun

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2014, 10:09:54 AM »
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 10:19:22 AM by Bigun »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2014, 11:12:54 AM »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2014, 11:14:47 AM »
There are many things that are "constitutional" that I do not support.

The left feels exactly the same way that you do about gun ownership.

Quote
Government at all levels has been overreaching when it comes to property seizure.  Bundy is one of many victims of it.

I completely agree with you on this, but not in this case. Bundy does not own that land, if he did, he would have a title to it, and he would have been paying taxes on it, not fees to use it.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 11:17:01 AM by Luis Gonzalez »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2014, 11:21:54 AM »

Online Bigun

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2014, 11:22:57 AM »
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 11:26:10 AM by Bigun »

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2014, 11:23:40 AM »
People will always root for the underdog, and are suspicious and fearful of faceless organizations.

Absolutely.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2014, 11:27:38 AM »
And you, my learned friend, seem to have forgotten entirely about Article IV of the Constitution!

Just as we argue that the words "separation of Church and State" are noweher to be found in the Constitution, the words "equal footing" are not.

You claimed that the "Constitution states" that.

It doesn't.

ARTICLE IV

SECTION. 1. Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

SECTION. 2. The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

SECTION. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

SECTION. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2014, 11:36:57 AM »

Online Bigun

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2014, 11:39:16 AM »
Just as we argue that the words "separation of Church and State" are noweher to be found in the Constitution, the words "equal footing" are not.

You claimed that the "Constitution states" that.

It doesn't.

ARTICLE IV

SECTION. 1. Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

SECTION. 2. The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

SECTION. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

The Congress shall have Power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

SECTION. 4. The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

Well then perhaps you will be kind enough to explain to me the meaning of the words  in  Section 1. of what you quoted above. Does the word RECORDS include ALL records?
 

Offline EC

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2014, 11:40:44 AM »
Where is his title?

Homestead act might be relevant here?
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Online Bigun

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2014, 11:44:11 AM »
Quote
Where is his title?

I don't know but I seriously doubt that his family would have been allowed the use of that land from that date to now without one.

Do you?

Not going to try to adjudicate this further here with you. I have laid out my position and stand by it!

Offline Luis Gonzalez

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Re: Why ranchers support "hero" Cliven Bundy
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2014, 11:46:41 AM »
I don't know but I seriously doubt that his family would have been allowed the use of that land from that date to now without one.

Do you?

Not going to try to adjudicate this further here with you. I have laid out my position and stand by it!

They were allowed to use the lands because they were paying grazing fees up until 1993.


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