Author Topic: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch  (Read 7015 times)

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Offline Atomic Cow

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2014, 06:54:38 PM »
They're going to give Obama the excuse he's been looking for to declare martial law.
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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2014, 07:16:39 PM »
They're going to give Obama the excuse he's been looking for to declare martial law.

No sadly there are far too many that support the government's position "it's theirs to do what they want".   Protect the turtles, the lizards, the freakin snail darter...to hell with we the people.

 

Offline sinkspur

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2014, 07:21:58 PM »
They're going to give Obama the excuse he's been looking for to declare martial law.

Oh for God's sake!!!

Most ranchers who graze their cattle on federal land pay fees for the privilege of doing so.  Bundy wants to graze his cattle for free.

Instead of trying to work this out, he'd rather provoke a confrontation.  He's going to lose all his cattle and have to pay the fees anyway.
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Offline happyg

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2014, 07:32:05 PM »

Offline happyg

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2014, 07:33:12 PM »
Bundy was there long before the damn turtles. The Feds stole the land, and he's fighting back. Good for him.

Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2014, 07:43:33 PM »

Offline mountaineer

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2014, 07:56:10 PM »
Why not just fine him if he's violating a law? Why kill the cattle? Why turn this into another Waco?
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Offline Chieftain

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2014, 07:59:18 PM »
Why not just fine him if he's violating a law? Why kill the cattle? Why turn this into another Waco?

And that's what they are risking here.  No telling how heavily armed BLM is, or how heavy their reinforcements would be if called upon.  Look at the proliferation of SWAT teams in local Sheriff's offices across the Country, and imagine what "the Feds" have access too.  For starters, most Sheriffs can't call in helicopter gunships.....


Offline happyg

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2014, 08:38:10 PM »
From this article:
Quote
The Bundy Ranch has been in the family for 120 years..  Back in 1993, the government regulators placed a number of new restrictions on where the ranchers could graze their cattle to protect a turtle..  According to Cliven Bundy the change violated a number of laws and contractual agreements.  Bundy lost in court but is refusing to give up the family ranch. It looks like he has the support of his neighbors

http://grumpyelder.com/2014/04/nevada-obamas-epa-thugs-attack-citizens-with-dogs-and-tasers/

Offline happyg

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2014, 08:41:39 PM »

Offline happyg

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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2014, 09:13:34 PM »
OUTRAGEOUS: Ranch Protesters Tasered By Federal Agents


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhJ6H9vlEDA&feature=player_embedded

Article at link: http://patdollard.com/2014/04/outrageous-ranch-protesters-tasered-by-federal-agents/

Look at 1:24 into the video.  The cop knees the dog toward a girl. 

Our country is gone.


Offline happyg

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2014, 09:20:37 PM »
Look at 1:24 into the video.  The cop knees the dog toward a girl. 

Our country is gone.

Thanks! I didn't catch that. I noticed the other girl came up and gave him a round of hell, and told him to get that dog out of there.

Offline EC

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2014, 12:34:52 PM »
We are not going to agree about this!  :laugh:

To give a perspective - no one here owns land. Almost no one, at least, there are a few families that have grants from the Crown. The family moves or dies out, so does the grant. Yet I am entitled, as a land "owner", to enjoy my property from 3 meters down to 50 meters up. I may also use the common land for grazing sheep, walking or just messing around, with no fee or penalty to be paid. That is part of my title and may not be removed without a specific act of Parliament.

It could be argued that Federal lands are the equivalent of common lands. Owned and to be freely available to all.
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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2014, 01:10:14 PM »
I'm afraid that she has misstated the facts.  Her great grandfather did nothing more than rent the land

That's what they told the Indians too.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2014, 01:14:18 PM »
I'm afraid that she has misstated the facts.  Her great grandfather did nothing more than rent the land for the purpose of grazing cattle.  The "preemptive rights" she refers to seem to be the grazing preference given to people who already hold grazing permits which entitles them to special consideration over applicants for grazing permits who haven't acquired a preference.  As I read it, this sounds basically like a right of first refusal that prevents someone from leasing grazing rights out from underneath the person currently using them.

Those grazing permits were transferred down, ultimately to her father.  In 1993 the grazing rights were up for renewal.  For whatever reason he chose not to renew or to continue paying rent for the land he was using.

In other words, stripped of the terms of art used for agricultural grazing issues, his grandfather rented the land solely for the purpose of grazing cattle and the lease for that land was eventually transferred to him, Cliven Bundy.  In other words, his grandfather's original lease was assigned to him, something that happens all the time with regular commercial leases.  In 1993 he broke the terms of the lease when he stopped paying the rent, which is what the grazing fees are.  Ever since then, for the last twenty years, he's been trespassing on that property in violation of the owner's rights.

The mere fact that his grandfather paid money to lease the grazing rights doesn't make the land his just as my paying rent doesn't make me owner of the house I'm renting.  That he and his family invested money in building fences and such doesn't change things at all.  When a renter builds stuff on the land he's renting, that stuff becomes the property of the landowner; it definitely doesn't make the renter the owner of the land.

I'm sorry but Mr. Bundy is a scofflaw of the first order and is no better than an illegal alien who initially entered legally on a temporary visa and then stayed here after the visa expired.
People lease land to drill for oil, gas, produce coal and minerals. People lease land to erect commercial and residential buildings (usally very long term).

And in this case the rancher essentially leases grazing right from the fedgov for the land where he runs his herds.

He never did own the land, notwithstanding the longevity of his usage.

Many will feel it is heavyhanded for the fedgov to be able to unilaterally insert new conditions into said leasing/fee contract. But behind that is likely legislation, by duly elected representatives of "we the people."

If you as citizen/voter prefer the rancher to have status above the tortoises, you need to convince your fellow voters.

His failure to pay his fees, places him in a weaker position. He has lost continuously in courts.

Like the outcome or not, this is the rule of law in action. We haven't had new offshore drilling in California for decades. I don't like the result, but I have not forced an armed confrontation with government authorities to make the point.

Militia coming to Nevada with arms puts the political right in a weak position, but most of those types are just itching for a chance to show off their bravado, a few in person, and more from the safety of their keyboards.

And the case supporting this rancher is weak at best.
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2014, 01:27:31 PM »
One of the big confusions here is the claim and misuse of term 'rent'. These old grazing grants are not renting in the general sense. These were contracts with the rancher and State which basically gave the rancher 'use ownership' while the State owns the land. A lot of times, in order to make it the same as ownership, the rights were contracted for 999 years.  Tens if not hundreds of millions of acres around this country are held by ranchers this way, it is one of the foundations of the large ranching system.

When the contracts were handed from the State to the Federal Government, one of the caviats were that these existing contracts would be honored.

This is the crux of the issue, the BLM has come in and claimed right to both land ownership and breaking the contract on usage ownership.

Here is the scary part. Millions of these acres were legally used by ranch owners to sell usage rights to developers and in some areas, subdivisions have grown up on this land. If this trend continues, there will be nothing stopping the BLM from coming in and taking property from millions of homeowners around the country.

I wouldn't be surprised if you dig into the deed history of many people on this site, you'll find that your homes fall under this. Your land and home are simply transfers of usage rights, not true landowner rights.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2014, 01:34:38 PM »
One of the big confusions here is the claim and misuse of term 'rent'. These old grazing grants are not renting in the general sense. These were contracts with the rancher and State which basically gave the rancher 'use ownership' while the State owns the land. A lot of times, in order to make it the same as ownership, the rights were contracted for 999 years.  Tens if not hundreds of millions of acres around this country are held by ranchers this way, it is one of the foundations of the large ranching system.

When the contracts were handed from the State to the Federal Government, one of the caviats were that these existing contracts would be honored.

This is the crux of the issue, the BLM has come in and claimed right to both land ownership and breaking the contract on usage ownership.

Here is the scary part. Millions of these acres were legally used by ranch owners to sell usage rights to developers and in some areas, subdivisions have grown up on this land. If this trend continues, there will be nothing stopping the BLM from coming in and taking property from millions of homeowners around the country.

I wouldn't be surprised if you dig into the deed history of many people on this site, you'll find that your homes fall under this. Your land and home are simply transfers of usage rights, not true landowner rights.

This is all about revenge toward the White Man. 

I was thinking title insurance would protect the homeowner, but only financially...should the highest Court agree with the government.
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2014, 01:39:52 PM »
This is all about revenge toward the White Man. 

I was thinking title insurance would protect the homeowner, but only financially...should the highest Court agree with the government.

The funny part is millions of these acres are use-owned by Hispanic ranchers in the Southwest through grants given by the Spanish when they ruled the area. They still have 800+ years to go on their land use contracts.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2014, 01:45:42 PM »
An interesting question as to whether that title would survive the change in sovereign.  It is possible that it did.

I need to refresh my memory but I recall there was a case in the late 1800s where this exact issue came up.  The US had said they would honor these grants at one point as part of encouraging loyalty.

Online DCPatriot

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2014, 01:47:56 PM »
An interesting question as to whether that title would survive the change in sovereign.  It is possible that it did.


LOL!   You wake up one day and your home is in "Mexico". 

And of course, you're there with no papers.....oh-oh!     
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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2014, 01:49:18 PM »
One of the big confusions here is the claim and misuse of term 'rent'. These old grazing grants are not renting in the general sense. These were contracts with the rancher and State which basically gave the rancher 'use ownership' while the State owns the land. A lot of times, in order to make it the same as ownership, the rights were contracted for 999 years.  Tens if not hundreds of millions of acres around this country are held by ranchers this way, it is one of the foundations of the large ranching system.

When the contracts were handed from the State to the Federal Government, one of the caviats were that these existing contracts would be honored.

This is the crux of the issue, the BLM has come in and claimed right to both land ownership and breaking the contract on usage ownership.

Here is the scary part. Millions of these acres were legally used by ranch owners to sell usage rights to developers and in some areas, subdivisions have grown up on this land. If this trend continues, there will be nothing stopping the BLM from coming in and taking property from millions of homeowners around the country.

I wouldn't be surprised if you dig into the deed history of many people on this site, you'll find that your homes fall under this. Your land and home are simply transfers of usage rights, not true landowner rights.
If traced back, my deed leads to Spanish land grants. The "crown" deeded the land to selected rich educated people, to further the colonization process. Like it or not, that is how it worked and works.

It wasn't a "lease for years" or other variant. It allowed the fee simple deedholder to further transfer ownership the property.

Bundy has never produced any deed showing him as a fee simple landowner. He has been a holder of rights, like a lease.  When he quit paying his fees, he weakens any claims to the land whatsoever. He has lost in court every time.
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Offline AbaraXas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2014, 01:50:50 PM »
Found it.. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo ending the war with Mexico guaranteed honoring those land grants and contracts. The "An Act to Ascertain and Settle Private Land Claims in the State of California" was passed by Congress in 1851 and if title was presented, it would be honored (it was controversial because if they didn't have a written title or grant, they lost the land). This is specifically California but extended to much of the Southwest.

Offline AbaraXas

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Re: BREAKING: Militia Arrives at Bundy Ranch
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2014, 01:55:24 PM »
If traced back, my deed leads to Spanish land grants. The "crown" deeded the land to selected rich educated people, to further the colonization process. Like it or not, that is how it worked and works.

It wasn't a "lease for years" or other variant. It allowed the fee simple deedholder to further transfer ownership the property.

Bundy has never produced any deed showing him as a fee simple landowner. He has been a holder of rights, like a lease.  When he quit paying his fees, he weakens any claims to the land whatsoever. He has lost in court every time.

The 'fees' were not part of the original contract nor were they legally taxes passed by Congress. They were just claimed by the BLM under the guise of seizing property.

It would be very much like if your home falls under land under the aforementioned California ranchos (yes, different State but same principle) as much of LA, San Diego, and other areas do. The feds decide they want your land so they decide as technical land deed owners to start assessing you a fee to use your home so high, there is no way you can comply, so they then come in and take your home.

Many people think they own their land, but they don't, they only own the rights to use the land.


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