SALVATION

[mrclose]

If my post is out of line please accept my apologies.

I have always had questions on the Saved issue so I'm asking.
(I hope in a polite way?)

Where does the acceptance of Christ as Saviour come into play?

  Was Jesus and his sacrifice ever really needed?

Lot and those who died in the flood?

Moses, Noah and too many folks who lived before him (Jesus) .. didn't know who Jesus was.

How does that fit in with Jesus is Saviour?

If as Christians preach that accepting Jesus as their Saviour is the only way for Salvation .. There are an awful lot of folks who lived before Jesus was even born?

You cannot reconcile both arguments.

Jesus either is or is not the only way to Salvation.

By this reasoning .. Jesus didn't have to suffer and die for our sins?

Everyone (including those who lived before Christ) just had to believe that God was the Saviour?

There is also the little problem of "The wages of sin is death"(Price paid)

You also have the resurrection of the righteous as well as the unrighteous?

Since the only unforgivable sin according to scripture is Blasphemy, I'm pretty sure that Every unrighteous resurrected individual wouldn't have committed it?

If so, why call them back from hell to just send them back?

And if the Righteous are resurrected, does God pull them out of Heaven to resurrect them?

As I said, I have questions? 8)

[Gazoo]

http://www.gotquestions.org/before-Jesus.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_query=why+did+Jesus+have+to+suffer+and+die&search.x=28&search.y=13

One simple thing to remember, I suppose.

Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. [Matthew 7:12]

[alicewonders]

Heavy questions mrclose.  My father was a biblical scholar.  He devoted his life, before he got dementia, to bible study and prophecy.  He would be able to answer your questions fairly easily and in an off the cuff way.  That's not to say that I would agree with him, that's the thing about the Bible - it's subject to interpretation. 

When I was a child, being the child of a Southern Baptist church deacon, I was at church practically every time the church doors were open.  I remember being taught that the only way you could go to heaven was to accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - which I did.  But I had questions about the children that grew up in places like China that were taught another religion - were they going to hell?  My father would say yes, unless they accepted Christ.  I couldn't then, and I cannot now, accept that.

The Bible is full of apparent contradictions, especially between the Old Testament and the New Testament.  I tell myself that it was written by men that wrote their understanding of it based on their perspective in the times that they lived.  Jesus is my saviour and I believe that living by his teachings is the correct path to live life and to gain salvation and eternal life.  That is my faith.  I don't fret over the "contradictions", I just know that with prayer and constant searching within myself I gain a better understanding of why we are put on this earth. 

God created us the way we are, warts and all.  He understands we will screw up - but he loves us anyway - enough that he sent his son to earth to give us a clear understanding of what he wants from us.  Just like Jesus' life, I don't think life was meant to be easy, or fair for us.  Through adversity, we are to learn and become stronger.  I think God wants the "cream of the crop" among us - for whatever plan he has for us after this life. 

That didn't answer your questions, but that is my take on it. 

[Gazoo]

Heavy questions mrclose.  My father was a biblical scholar.  He devoted his life, before he got dementia, to bible study and prophecy.  He would be able to answer your questions fairly easily and in an off the cuff way.  That's not to say that I would agree with him, that's the thing about the Bible - it's subject to interpretation. 

When I was a child, being the child of a Southern Baptist church deacon, I was at church practically every time the church doors were open.  I remember being taught that the only way you could go to heaven was to accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - which I did.  But I had questions about the children that grew up in places like China that were taught another religion - were they going to hell?  My father would say yes, unless they accepted Christ.  I couldn't then, and I cannot now, accept that.

The Bible is full of apparent contradictions, especially between the Old Testament and the New Testament.  I tell myself that it was written by men that wrote their understanding of it based on their perspective in the times that they lived.  Jesus is my saviour and I believe that living by his teachings is the correct path to live life and to gain salvation and eternal life.  That is my faith.  I don't fret over the "contradictions", I just know that with prayer and constant searching within myself I gain a better understanding of why we are put on this earth. 

God created us the way we are, warts and all.  He understands we will screw up - but he loves us anyway - enough that he sent his son to earth to give us a clear understanding of what he wants from us.  Just like Jesus' life, I don't think life was meant to be easy, or fair for us.  Through adversity, we are to learn and become stronger.  I think God wants the "cream of the crop" among us - for whatever plan he has for us after this life. 

That didn't answer your questions, but that is my take on it.

 

[EC]

Not exactly the smartest person around on this sort of stuff, but I'll give it a try for you. Warning - irreverent.

If my post is out of line please accept my apologies.

I have always had questions on the Saved issue so I'm asking.
(I hope in a polite way?)

Where does the acceptance of Christ as Saviour come into play?

  Was Jesus and his sacrifice ever really needed?

Lot and those who died in the flood?

Moses, Noah and too many folks who lived before him (Jesus) .. didn't know who Jesus was.

How does that fit in with Jesus is Saviour?

If as Christians preach that accepting Jesus as their Saviour is the only way for Salvation .. There are an awful lot of folks who lived before Jesus was even born?

You cannot reconcile both arguments.

Jesus either is or is not the only way to Salvation.

By this reasoning .. Jesus didn't have to suffer and die for our sins?

Everyone (including those who lived before Christ) just had to believe that God was the Saviour?

There is also the little problem of "The wages of sin is death"(Price paid)

You also have the resurrection of the righteous as well as the unrighteous?

Since the only unforgivable sin according to scripture is Blasphemy, I'm pretty sure that Every unrighteous resurrected individual wouldn't have committed it?

If so, why call them back from hell to just send them back?

And if the Righteous are resurrected, does God pull them out of Heaven to resurrect them?

As I said, I have questions? 8)

First off - Salvation is a gift. Freely offered and freely accepted. Comes with a price in the long run, but you pay for what you get one way or another. Think of it as adopting a kitten - except you are the kitten in this case.

Was Jesus needed? Yes. He was, and not for some prophecy. He is the Word made flesh. The one that took the billion niggling rules in the OT and cut them down to two: basically honor God and don't be a dick to others. For that he got nailed to a tree with a bad joke over his head.

I tend to avoid the people before the birth of our Lord, simply because someone who can create the entire universe knows his own, no matter what name they use to call him. Yep - incurious, but figure someone who can screw with us on a sub atomic scale can do pretty much what he wants on the macro scale. I have seen good and godly people who don't know about Jesus. I've seen evil people who have his name constantly on their tongues in a none blasphemous sense. That is for smarter folk to work out.

Now "the wages of sin is death" has a double meaning. It's common in Hebrew, Aramaic (apparently, don't speak that lingo) and Arabic. Take it on face value first, as in your day to day life. Do something bad, or wrong, or evil or even careless - it affects you. You get less joy in life. If it affects your body, so it affects your soul.

As for resurrection - sure. It happens. People like change. Heaven has to be a little on the boring side from time to time. So why not bop back down and try to beat your last score? We like games for a reason.

Souls in Hell though? Consider why they are there. Dante knew, he should really be rated as a prophet. How can a loving God consign souls to the dark and punishment forever? He can't. Hell is the last ditch attempt at steering souls back to God. Even Lucifer will be redeemed some day.

[Gazoo]

Not exactly the smartest person around on this sort of stuff, but I'll give it a try for you. Warning - irreverent.

First off - Salvation is a gift. Freely offered and freely accepted. Comes with a price in the long run, but you pay for what you get one way or another. Think of it as adopting a kitten - except you are the kitten in this case.

Was Jesus needed? Yes. He was, and not for some prophecy. He is the Word made flesh. The one that took the billion niggling rules in the OT and cut them down to two: basically honor God and don't be a dick to others. For that he got nailed to a tree with a bad joke over his head.

I tend to avoid the people before the birth of our Lord, simply because someone who can create the entire universe knows his own, no matter what name they use to call him. Yep - incurious, but figure someone who can screw with us on a sub atomic scale can do pretty much what he wants on the macro scale. I have seen good and godly people who don't know about Jesus. I've seen evil people who have his name constantly on their tongues in a none blasphemous sense. That is for smarter folk to work out.

Now "the wages of sin is death" has a double meaning. It's common in Hebrew, Aramaic (apparently, don't speak that lingo) and Arabic. Take it on face value first, as in your day to day life. Do something bad, or wrong, or evil or even careless - it affects you. You get less joy in life. If it affects your body, so it affects your soul.

As for resurrection - sure. It happens. People like change. Heaven has to be a little on the boring side from time to time. So why not bop back down and try to beat your last score? We like games for a reason.

Souls in Hell though? Consider why they are there. Dante knew, he should really be rated as a prophet. How can a loving God consign souls to the dark and punishment forever? He can't. Hell is the last ditch attempt at steering souls back to God. Even Lucifer will be redeemed some day.

 

[mrclose]

I left out an important part in my post!

(The line about sin)

I should have said that according to scripture the only sin that there is no forgiveness for is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

In my post I said the only sin ...
(sorry for the error)

P.S. Thank You all who have responded to my questions.

[EC]

I left out an important part in my post!

(The line about sin)

I should have said that according to scripture the only sin that there is no forgiveness for is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

In my post I said the only sin ...
(sorry for the error)

P.S. Thank You all who have responded to my questions.

Take a wee peek at the ten commandments. Every single one of them is about theft.

[Gazoo]

I left out an important part in my post!

(The line about sin)

I should have said that according to scripture the only sin that there is no forgiveness for is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

In my post I said the only sin ...
(sorry for the error)

P.S. Thank You all who have responded to my questions.

 

[NavyCanDo]

You have to understand how atonements were made in ancient Jewish history to understand how Jesus fits in to the picture. And he is in the picture right from Geneses and throughout  the Bible. The whole Bible is the Jesus story.
 
The Temple was a sacred place and in its center the Holy of Holies that was protected by a curtain. Only a select few High Priest were allowed to pass through that curtain, and only during atonement  rituals where sacrifices were made for forgiveness of sins of Gods people. So much blood was shed on the Brazen Alter that a sophisticated drainage system was built to allow all the blood to flow out of the building. The blood of tens of thousands of animals each year.
The penalty for entering restricted areas of the Temple and the Holy of Holies was death.  Even Jesus while on earth could not enter parts of the Temple grounds not open to the public.
 
So the presence of God remained shielded from man behind a thick curtain during the history of Israel. However, Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross changed that. When He died, the curtain in the Jerusalem temple was torn in half, from the top to the bottom. Only God could have carried out such an incredible feat because the veil was too high for human hands to have reached it, and too thick to have torn it. (The Jerusalem temple, a replica of the wilderness tabernacle, had a curtain that was about 60 feet in height, 30 feet in width and four inches thick.) Furthermore, it was torn from top down, meaning this act must have come from above.  With that torn curtain came the assurance that His people would no longer have to go through a high priest to earn forgiveness through the sacrifice of animals. Jesus the last High Priest was the final sacrifice.     

[musiclady]

If as Christians preach that accepting Jesus as their Saviour is the only way for Salvation .. There are an awful lot of folks who lived before Jesus was even born?

You cannot reconcile both arguments.


One thing that I might add to this discussion, is that Jesus, as part of the Trinity, existed before he was born on earth.   Jesus IS God, and as such, He is in the Old Testament; He is the Great I AM.  So those who lived before Christ who believed in God, and in the coming Messiah, are actually coming to Salvation through Jesus as well.

Also.......... my view is that there are no contradictions between Old and New Testament........only things that our finite minds cannot yet understand.

[EC]

Also.......... my view is that there are no contradictions between Old and New Testament........only things that our finite minds cannot yet understand.

I will gently disagree with you.

The Old Testament god reminds me of a parent of a toddler. You can't reason with them. Can't explain to them. They have to accept that using Daddy's lighter on the cat is wrong without knowing why.

New Testament?  The kid is old enough to be talked to.

[musiclady]

I will gently disagree with you.

The Old Testament god reminds me of a parent of a toddler. You can't reason with them. Can't explain to them. They have to accept that using Daddy's lighter on the cat is wrong without knowing why.

New Testament?  The kid is old enough to be talked to.

The same God in both Testaments.  And Jesus IS God.

Old Covenant.  New Covenant.   Law.   Grace.

Same God.

[NavyCanDo]

Every story has a beginning. But The Jesus Story begins before the beginning. Before there was space or time, before there was sun and moon and stars. The Jesus Story tells of a garden paradise,  a boat and a flood, a rainbow, a tower, a valley of bones that rise up and walk,  and a man named Abraham that God promises will become the father of many nations, and a Giant.  All setting the stage for all that will follow: a true story of love so great that it will stop at nothing to restore the broken relationship between the Creator and His creation.   Exiting stories in 66 chapters written over 4000 years, full of betrayal, murder, battles, passion, enslavement, sacrifice, death and a birth, and all focused on His love and redemption that will be played out for all humanity.

The Bible is one story from beginning to end. Too often we make the mistake by using Sunday School theology and think of it as a bunch of random stories. It's not. It is one story of God's redemptive plan for human kind.

[EC]

I like that, Navy. Elegantly put. 

The chaplain that got me into being a Catholic was (unusually) very hot on his flock actually reading the Bible for themselves. He called it the user manual to life. Every possible problem and scenario is in there somewhere.

[aligncare]

Take a wee peek at the ten commandments. Every single one of them is about theft.

George Carlin narrowed them down to two, with a provisional third:


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sk81tUUhRig

[EC]

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

I'm God. Don't diss me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image

My image is copyrighted - don't even think about it.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain

Don't try stealing my name either.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy

It's my day. Hands off.

Honour thy father and thy mother

Hey, your parents didn't have to have you and raise you. Don't stal their self respect. Also don't bleep it up.

Thou shalt not kill

Don't steal life. It's not something you can give back.

Thou shalt not commit adultery

Winging it here. Sorry, since I am infallible, you are stuck with the person I chose for you.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour

Don't lie. Stealing the truth is not cool.

Thou shalt not covet   

Who doesn't want cool shit? Though if you covet your neighbors ass we need to talk about something completely different. You are stealing in thought, if not in deed.

[Bigun]

Every story has a beginning. But The Jesus Story begins before the beginning. Before there was space or time, before there was sun and moon and stars. The Jesus Story tells of a garden paradise,  a boat and a flood, a rainbow, a tower, a valley of bones that rise up and walk,  and a man named Abraham that God promises will become the father of many nations, and a Giant.  All setting the stage for all that will follow: a true story of love so great that it will stop at nothing to restore the broken relationship between the Creator and His creation.   Exiting stories in 66 chapters written over 4000 years, full of betrayal, murder, battles, passion, enslavement, sacrifice, death and a birth, and all focused on His love and redemption that will be played out for all humanity.

The Bible is one story from beginning to end. Too often we make the mistake by using Sunday School theology and think of it as a bunch of random stories. It's not. It is one story of God's redemptive plan for human kind.

You are absolutely right Navy and there is nothing written in the Bible that says WHEN a person has to accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior. Many of us believe that all of those who never had the opportunity to know of Jesus while physically on the Earth will still have opportunities to learn of him before the final judgment.

[musiclady]

Every story has a beginning. But The Jesus Story begins before the beginning. Before there was space or time, before there was sun and moon and stars. The Jesus Story tells of a garden paradise,  a boat and a flood, a rainbow, a tower, a valley of bones that rise up and walk,  and a man named Abraham that God promises will become the father of many nations, and a Giant.  All setting the stage for all that will follow: a true story of love so great that it will stop at nothing to restore the broken relationship between the Creator and His creation.   Exiting stories in 66 chapters written over 4000 years, full of betrayal, murder, battles, passion, enslavement, sacrifice, death and a birth, and all focused on His love and redemption that will be played out for all humanity.

The Bible is one story from beginning to end. Too often we make the mistake by using Sunday School theology and think of it as a bunch of random stories. It's not. It is one story of God's redemptive plan for human kind.

Amen and AMEN!!

[NavyCanDo]

I mentioned "Sunday School theology" in my last post. Where you are only seeing part of the picture and not really maturing and getting into  and understanding God's Word. There is something far worse and that is what my pastor calls  "Google theology". If you are not having the question of salvation and why God came to earth answered in Church, and have to go search for an answer on the web where you are putting yourself at great risk of getting mislead, then you are in the wrong church. I don't care what denomination you are (I myself attend a non-denominational Christian church), keep looking for a church that does not give you a watered down version of God's word.  Our family tried several before God led us to one we not only get fed at each Sunday, but one we actually enjoy going to.

[EC]

Me - I trust what I am told. Not by people so much, apart from trusted friends, but by that little voice, really bleep quiet, that speaks to you in times of stress or fear.

Two of my grand children - Mass wasn't cutting it for them. Too formal, too removed from God. They go to the local Evangelical church. I drop them off with a friend, then go to Mass. Pick them up after. No big deal.

[Bigun]

Me - I trust what I am told. Not by people so much, apart from trusted friends, but by that little voice, really bleeping quiet, that speaks to you in times of stress or fear.

Two of my grand children - Mass wasn't cutting it for them. Too formal, too removed from God. They go to the local Evangelical church. I drop them off with a friend, then go to Mass. Pick them up after. No big deal.

I'll assure you that in the end what they have personally DONE with their lives is going to matter much more than which pew of which Church they sat in while on this Earth!

[mystery-ak]

I'll assure you that in the end what they have personally DONE with their lives is going to matter much more than which pew of which Church they sat in while on this Earth!

Worth repeating...

[EC]

I'll assure you that in the end what they have personally DONE with their lives is going to matter much more than which pew of which Church they sat in while on this Earth!

True, my brother. They are good kids. Collect for charity, visit the local residential home and play games with the elders (backgammon is popular, Monopoly is banned), tease their grand dad into doing some gardening in the local park. I know I am down for some serious work when they come stomping into the house in matching pink wellies with flowers on them! 

They are happy. Pretty much all we ever asked for.

[Bigun]

True, my brother. They are good kids. Collect for charity, visit the local residential home and play games with the elders (backgammon is popular, Monopoly is banned), tease their grand dad into doing some gardening in the local park. I know I am down for some serious work when they come stomping into the house in matching pink wellies with flowers on them! 

They are happy. Pretty much all we ever asked for.