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Offline Rapunzel

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« on: March 15, 2014, 06:57:46 PM »

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2014, 06:58:37 PM »
Clinton handed over our secrets to the Chinese when he was President - why would we think Obama hasn't been doing the same thing?

Offline Howie66

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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 08:01:39 PM »
Clinton handed over our secrets to the Chinese when he was President - why would we think Obama hasn't been doing the same thing?

Good thing that I continued reading. I would have posted the same thang.   :beer:
I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery.  But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes:  If you bleep with me, I'll kill you all.

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I didn't enlist in the Corps just to watch my country become a Third World Communist Shit-hole. Don't know anyone who did.

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2014, 08:31:59 PM »
Good thing that I continued reading. I would have posted the same thang.   :beer:

After Clinton left office I read Bill Gertz book where he laid it all out for us..... fact is American manufacturers don't really care who they sell to as long as the CEO's can line their pockets.

Offline Howie66

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2014, 08:37:43 PM »
After Clinton left office I read Bill Gertz book where he laid it all out for us..... fact is American manufacturers don't really care who they sell to as long as the CEO's can line their pockets.

It's also interesting to note just how many of these same CEOs love to contribute to people like Clinton, Obama and RATs/RINOs in general.
I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery.  But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes:  If you bleep with me, I'll kill you all.

Marine General James Mattis, to Iraqi tribal leaders (Note: Mattis did NOT say "BLEEP". He threw the F Bomb)

I didn't enlist in the Corps just to watch my country become a Third World Communist Shit-hole. Don't know anyone who did.

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2014, 09:06:23 PM »
It's also interesting to note just how many of these same CEOs love to contribute to people like Clinton, Obama and RATs/RINOs in general.

That it is.

Offline Oceander

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2014, 01:00:21 AM »
After Clinton left office I read Bill Gertz book where he laid it all out for us..... fact is American manufacturers don't really care who they sell to as long as the CEO's can line their pockets.

Uhmm, not to put to fine a point on it, but isn't that sort of the ne plus ultra of free markets and capitalism - selling to whomever will pay the highest price?  And if all that's involved is selling - healthy free market activity - then isn't what's earned just honest profit, not lining of pockets?

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2014, 01:09:14 AM »
Uhmm, not to put to fine a point on it, but isn't that sort of the ne plus ultra of free markets and capitalism - selling to whomever will pay the highest price?  And if all that's involved is selling - healthy free market activity - then isn't what's earned just honest profit, not lining of pockets?

Not sure giving our top secret plans to our top secret military equipment calls in that category... at least to me.. some things are propitiatory and should remain that way... he gave them actual plans to our top of the line subs and aircraft carriers, not to mention our planes.

Offline Oceander

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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2014, 01:21:54 AM »
Not sure giving our top secret plans to our top secret military equipment calls in that category... at least to me.. some things are propitiatory and should remain that way... he gave them actual plans to our top of the line subs and aircraft carriers, not to mention our planes.

Then it's the government's job to make sure top secret secrets stay that way and that when it deals with a business it writes into its contracts sufficient secrecy requirements as well as mechanisms to verify that secrecy is being maintained.  That is precisely how any garden-variety business with trade secrets protects its trade secrets when it deals with other businesses, so I fail to see why the government cannot do that as well.  The verification methods should be robust enough to catch all high potential problems before too much is lost, and the agreed upon penalties in the contract should be severe enough to ensure that the private businesses' interests are fully aligned with those of the government.  Otherwise, I find it hard to denigrate a business for doing precisely what it's supposed to be doing - making a profit selling its wares for the highest price offered.

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2014, 01:29:56 AM »
Then it's the government's job to make sure top secret secrets stay that way and that when it deals with a business it writes into its contracts sufficient secrecy requirements as well as mechanisms to verify that secrecy is being maintained.  That is precisely how any garden-variety business with trade secrets protects its trade secrets when it deals with other businesses, so I fail to see why the government cannot do that as well.  The verification methods should be robust enough to catch all high potential problems before too much is lost, and the agreed upon penalties in the contract should be severe enough to ensure that the private businesses' interests are fully aligned with those of the government.  Otherwise, I find it hard to denigrate a business for doing precisely what it's supposed to be doing - making a profit selling its wares for the highest price offered.

Yes, but in the case of the Clinton Administration they were fine with  these companies to sell our secret plans to the Chinese. 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 01:30:53 AM by Rapunzel »

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2014, 01:33:05 AM »

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2014, 01:38:40 AM »
Side note:  Loral sold out to Lockheed in 1996.........


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http://www.nytimes.com/2000/06/14/world/us-fines-lockheed-13-million-in-china-satellite-case.html


U.S. Fines Lockheed $13 Million in China Satellite Case
By DAVID E. SANGER
Published: June 14, 2000

The Lockheed Martin Corporation has agreed to pay $13 million to the government to settle a case involving the sale of satellite technology to China in 1994, company and Clinton administration officials said today.

The company was charged with violating arms export laws. The settlement, which officials said is likely to be announced on Wednesday by the State Department, is the largest civil penalty ever assessed under the Arms Export Control Act, the primary law regulating sales of American technology.

A criminal investigation is still under way over whether the Loral Space and Communication Corporation also violated export controls in a separate incident. The Lockheed Martin settlement may put pressure on Loral to settle that case.


Quote
But it also allows the Clinton administration -- which has been charged with laxness in keeping sensitive technology out of Chinese hands -- to argue in the midst of a presidential election year that it is enforcing export control laws.

In a statement tonight, Lockheed Martin's spokesman, James Fetig, confirmed that the company, the world's largest military manufacturer, had decided to settle the case, in which the State Department had charged the company with 30 violations of arms export laws. He said that under the agreement, Lockheed Martin neither admits nor denies the allegations.

The financial settlement came close to the maximum penalty of $15 million. But under the terms of the accord, officials said, the company is spared a far more costly fate: a suspension of its rights to export satellite technology.

In its statement, Lockheed Martin said, ''The corporation appreciates the opportunity to enter into a settlement agreement with the Department of State that resolves the charges.

''We are committed to full compliance with all export control measures and believe this agreement will allow us to assure the State Department that we will meet all of our export control obligations.''

At issue in the case was a series of interchanges between Lockheed Martin rocket experts and the Chinese about kick motors, which are small rocket motors that are used to lift a satellite into its final orbit. At the time of the exchanges, Chinese-made kick motors had suffered a number of failures. Martin Marietta Aerospace, which was later acquired by Lockheed, provided help to AsiaSat, a satellite company based in Hong Kong with heavy financial ties to the Chinese government. AsiaSat was a client of Martin Marietta.

The technical transfers caused considerable concern within the State and Defense Departments. The same kick-motor technology that helps China in launching commercial communications satellites, officials said, could help its military launch spy satellites. In April, the State Department spokesman at the time, James P. Rubin, said ''any assistance to Chinese technical capability in space launch has the potential to be applied to missile development.''

Moreover, the State Department charged that Martin Marietta had failed to clear its technical analysis of the rocket problems with Washington before passing it on to the Chinese, and had made no effort later to retrieve it. The company said at the time that it had violated no laws.

At the time, the Clinton administration was encouraging more commercial interchanges between American and Chinese satellite companies. But the rules on those transfers have since been tightened by Congress, in reaction to disclosures that in 1996, two years after the Martin Marietta incident, Loral had helped Chinese rocket makers solve a different set of technical problems.

Those transfers, officials say, raised more security concerns than Martin Marietta's help to AsiaSat.

Under the civil agreement, Lockheed Martin will be allowed to use $5 million of its fine to install computer systems that would give the American government access to all of its foreign space and missile deals. The access is to include data that might require licenses for export.

Offline EC

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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 04:00:45 AM »
The verification methods should be robust enough to catch all high potential problems before too much is lost, and the agreed upon penalties in the contract should be severe enough to ensure that the private businesses' interests are fully aligned with those of the government.  Otherwise, I find it hard to denigrate a business for doing precisely what it's supposed to be doing - making a profit selling its wares for the highest price offered.

While I agree, in the main, with your argument you are relying on the honesty of the purchaser. Once they have purchased a piece of kit (say an electro optical targeting system) what is to stop them cracking the case and reverse engineering it to produce their own? Or, like weapons and ammunition, falsifying the end user certificates needed for export.
It's not like these are sealed and mysterious black boxes that self destruct if you try to examine them - they do need to be repairable.
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Offline Gazoo

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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 04:43:50 AM »
The Clinton's toasted with red China in our White House. Obama bows to them.

And screw the corrupt media for not calling out the democrats on their, 'the GOP is stuck in the 1950's' garbage. I saw a CNN thing that says we are back to this era. The, we are the world hippie, war protesting radicals are boneheaded numbnuts running our country now.
"The Tea Party has a right to feel cheated.

When does the Republican Party, put in the majority by the Tea Party, plan to honor its commitment to halt the growth of the Federal monolith and bring the budget back into balance"?

Offline Rapunzel

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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2014, 07:34:56 PM »
While I agree, in the main, with your argument you are relying on the honesty of the purchaser. Once they have purchased a piece of kit (say an electro optical targeting system) what is to stop them cracking the case and reverse engineering it to produce their own? Or, like weapons and ammunition, falsifying the end user certificates needed for export.
It's not like these are sealed and mysterious black boxes that self destruct if you try to examine them - they do need to be repairable.

They didn't need to reverse engineer - Clinton and Loral and Northrup, etc. gave them the actual plans... read these books by Bill Gertz.....

Betrayal: Betrayal: How the Clinton Administration Undermined American Security

Enemies: How America's Foes Steal Our Vital Secrets--and How We Let It Happen

Treachery: How America's Friends and Foes Are Secretly Arming Our Enemies

and

The Failure Factory: How Unelected Bureaucrats, Liberal Democrats, and Big Government Republicans Are Undermining...

yes... I have read them all........

Offline Oceander

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« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2014, 10:10:06 PM »
While I agree, in the main, with your argument you are relying on the honesty of the purchaser. Once they have purchased a piece of kit (say an electro optical targeting system) what is to stop them cracking the case and reverse engineering it to produce their own? Or, like weapons and ammunition, falsifying the end user certificates needed for export.
It's not like these are sealed and mysterious black boxes that self destruct if you try to examine them - they do need to be repairable.

Any purchaser of sophisticated hardware - like the US government - would/should be well enough aware of that issue to have it taken into account in the contracts they enter into with private manufacturers.


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