Author Topic: Scott Brown to the rescue (again)? Former Massachusetts senator to announce New Hampshire run, hopes to return in November Republican landslide  (Read 11380 times)

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Oceander

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I don't think the moderates have control of the party right now. The emotion is all with the Tea Party branch. I don't see them being willing to compromise. But I'm not sure what the compromise would be. It's a battle between gaining control of the Senate and purifying the party. Those two goals aren't often compatible. I'm sure that almost every moderate would vote for a Tea Party candidate in both the primary and general election if that candidate was the most electable GOP candidate in the state. And they would vote for that candidate in the general election if he or she won the primary. The Tea Party would only vote for their candidate in the primary, whether or not he or she had a better chance in the general than a more moderate candidate would. And they might just stay home if the moderate GOP candidate won the primary.

Cheer me up by convincing me that I'm wrong.  :shrug:

Moderates control the party; there is not one of the new tea partiers who holds any real senior position of power in the GOP hierarchy.  Tea partiers/conservatives are the very flashy tail on the dog, but the dog still wags the tail, not the other way around.  As a moderate you should take some comfort from that.

I think also it would help if we avoided as much hyperbole and rhetoric as possible.  It's not really helpful, although it's tempting, to say tea partiers want to "purify" the party; they want to push the party's political principles and goals in a much different direction than they are now and that necessarily means challenging those who set, and who maintain, those current policies.

What makes a particular candidate "electable" is a very complicated analysis I would think.  For one thing, it depends on whether or not people turn out in the primaries to vote for a given candidate.  Almost by definition, if a candidate cannot get enough votes in the primary, he or she is unlikely to get enough votes in the actual election.  It also has a very large subjective component to it.  For example, many people would consider their favorite candidate to be the most electable because he/she is their favorite candidate.

"Electability" also contains a contradiction:  being "electable" in a party primary is not the same thing as being "electable" in the general election, but the candidate for the general election is the one chosen in the primary and therefore is always the one who was the most "electable" in that primary.  This contradiction pops up all the time on both sides of the political divide.

Sorry for taking this in little out-of-order snippets.  If I knew how to achieve the compromise, then I'd be the frontrunner for presidential candidate right about now.  However, one approach that the moderates could take is to basically peel away a significant number of a tea party candidate's supporters by appealing to them directly in a way that doesn't put their beliefs and goals down, but that tries to put them into a broader context and, precisely, tries to convince them that having an 'R' win the election right now is more important than that the winning 'R' satisfy every last single desire of the voters.

This, for one thing, requires a lot of listening.  I would suggest that moderates, or at least their more senior staff, get down to the hyperlocal level and start talking to self-identified tea partiers, find out what their actual motivations are, find out if they're just lashing out in anger and simply fastening on to the one person who seems to be really listening to them, or if they have some dogmatic or ideological predisposition that won't be easily changed by persuasive argument.

Have those mythical kitchen-table discussions with as many people as possible.  From there, try to distill what they've been saying into something simple, sort of a verbal set of bullet points, like "ok, I'm hearing that you're worried about ___________ and ___________" so that you show that you've actually engaged with what they're saying, and then explain - in plain English - why your policies are more likely to lead to some of those goals being satisfied than are others' policies.  And for that, don't lead with the electability argument - if you do people will just think you're calling them stupid and they'll turn off.  Also try to explain, in apologetic terms, why some of their goals are simply unattainable, or are partly unattainable.  For example, abortion will never be illegal in this country - as much as that's a bitter pill for many to swallow - and that should be explained in careful, measured tones, without blaming anyone for being evil or full of hate or engaged in a conspiracy, or stupid, or ..., and then followed up, where possible, with alternatives, such as focusing on getting rid of government funding for abortion, which can itself be placed in a larger philosophical context, one that is not religiously driven, such as that abortion is such a private, personal matter that the government has no business getting involved with promoting or preventing abortion because that is a matter of respecting each individual's Constitutional rights to freedom and liberty.  Emphasize that the rights to freedom and liberty aren't limited to just the smart or the wise, they're available to everyone, no matter how smart, wise, or stupid.

I could go on and on, but I'm tired and need to go to bed.

Offline evadR

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Anyone can make a mistake. Don't get pensive about it.  :shrug:
Yeah, just don't make the same mistake over and over.
It's like I say, I don't blame people who voted for Obama the first time but, anyone who voted for him the second time is just a dumb shiiite.
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline Rapunzel

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BTW I was sober when I typed the above post - I was waiting for take out and on my cell phone.

Just one more observation:  Romney won a majority of the independents and moderates and he lost the election.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline evadR

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"Romney won a majority of the independents and moderates and he lost the election."

I have never understood this and will never understand it.
My first inclination is to reject the premise that people just stayed home but, I guess it's true.

Things just don't make sense to me anymore. It's like I'm watching some slow motion nightmarish train wreck develop before my very eyes and I am powerless to stop it.
November 6, 2012, a day in infamy...the death of a republic as we know it.

Offline xyno

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You're new here, so I'll let that one pass.  There are people here who have admitted what they care about is ensuring their own financial success via the government.

I understand how you could have misinterpreted my remark.

Offline xyno

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I don't think the moderates have control of the party right now. The emotion is all with the Tea Party branch. I don't see them being willing to compromise. But I'm not sure what the compromise would be. It's a battle between gaining control of the Senate and purifying the party. Those two goals aren't often compatible. I'm sure that almost every moderate would vote for a Tea Party candidate in both the primary and general election if that candidate was the most electable GOP candidate in the state. And they would vote for that candidate in the general election if he or she won the primary. The Tea Party would only vote for their candidate in the primary, whether or not he or she had a better chance in the general than a more moderate candidate would. And they might just stay home if the moderate GOP candidate won the primary.

Cheer me up by convincing me that I'm wrong.  :shrug:

I share your sentiments and concerns.

Offline xyno

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BTW I was sober when I typed the above post - I was waiting for take out and on my cell phone.


*Phew*

I thought you had been thrown in the trunk of a Buick.

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Horse Shit.

Pure, and unadulterated.

So put it on your lawn and leave it out of here.

I have my issues with Mr. Cruz's approach to politics, but his opposition to the make-believe "Conservatives" in Washington is not one of them. The Tea Party exists because the GOP leadership is corrupt, bought and paid for by special interest groups that, after they retire from office, they will work for as lobbyists. At least until it all comes undone.

F*** them. I will not sit idly by and await the destruction of my country by people too greedy or stupid to see what Obama and his minions are truly up to, because I don't have a Cayman Islands bank account and a plane fueled and ready to evacuate my family when Hell comes to town, like McConnell and Boehner and all of those little Pretend Patriots do. They know what's coming and have already given up, because they want to milk it for all it's worth before the intractable mathematics of economic impossibility decimates those of us powerless to escape what they have wrought.

I have seen the future and it fails. Unless we rise up and fight the Democrats and Republicans who have bankrupted America, economically and morally.

Oh, and should Scott Brown be the candidate for Senate here in NH, I will vote for him. He's no Tea Party guy. But he's better than what we've got. America won't escape what's coming. But at least we'll have a shot at a Senate - and perhaps a Presidency - controlled by the least corrupt party, with at least a few members who understand that what is at stake is more important than their personal careers.

Bravo!  There is not one word of your post that I take disagree with, including your take on Scott Brown.  I would be thrilled if NH sent him to the Senate--we have NO PRAYER of getting anyone more conservative out of your state. None. 

Offline katzenjammer

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The moderates have not been doing so well .. Like Rombry... Why are the modetates so unwilling to do what  conservatives have been doing for 30 years... Why do moderates persist on looking down their noses at conservatives like we're dog pooh when the moderates are responsible for the initial spending nding spree that tankedour economy.  i think its time to try conservatism for a  change.


akways expecting us to go along eith your big doending, big hovernmdnt cznfiates

I would caution on this, don't let them dictate the terms of the debate.  What we are talking about here are not "moderates."  The better terms are Big Government Wing of the GOP, Statists, Neo-Statists (if you prefer Levin's nod to his GOP roots), Establishment Class, etc.  Leaving aside all of the "social or moral" issues (which I personally would like to see removed from government as much as possible), an honest and objective assessment of the performance of the GOP (when in control) over the past 100 years, certainly doesn't give one the impression of "moderation." 

Almost $18 Trillion in Debt (not even touching on the weight on the Trillions of unfunded liabilities), a FedGov:
- that spends $3.n Trillion per year (again, not counting the accrual for a couple Trillion in unfunded liabilities),
- that must borrow an obscene amount each day (regardless of the staggering amount of tax dollars sucked out of the private economy and private citizens),
- that now has more extra-Constitutional agencies (that takes two hands to count), and
- trots out a daily set of abuses of power (from the completely unleashed regulatory arms) that fills this forum (and others like it) with pages and pages of threads each day. 
No, this isn't the result of one party's abuses and disregard of the Constitution with another party "moderating" things.  It is the result of both parties being corrupted with (albeit different flavors of) statism, and a complete disregard for the constraints and guidance of the Constitution.

(I don't need to list all of the extra-Constitional Federal Agencies created, massive entitlement programs created or expanded, or any of the other completely un-Constitional measures established by the GOP.  Anyone paying attention over the past N years is well aware of them.  But just a peek at recent history should be representative: did you ever imagine that a GOP-controlled House would vote to not merely raise the Debt Limit, but "suspend" it, 3 times in a row now.  "Suspend" it, like it just doesn't exist.  A "blank check" delivered into the hands of the most abusive & corrupt regime ever to occupy DC.  No, these aren't "moderates.")

So no, it isn't a matter of making nice with the "moderates" so that we can all "win," link arms, and set about fixing things.  It is about removing the festering brood of statists, root and branch, from within the only party that can be salvaged at this point in time.  That's what this "debate" is all about.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 03:14:20 pm by katzenjammer »

Offline happyg

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So no, it isn't a matter of making nice with the "moderates" so that we can all "win," link arms, and set about fixing things.  It is about removing the festering brood of statists, root and branch, from within the only party that can be salvaged at this point in time.  That's what this "debate" is all about.
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 :amen: You don't fix a wound by putting a band aid over a dirty wound.

Offline DCPatriot

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I missed the memo alerting us to the fact that in a nation of 320+ million people, that only a one-term Senator from a neighboring State, Massachusetts....a carpetbagger....is the "only" viable candidate.

.....just because of his appearance and infectious smile.   Sickening.
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Offline speekinout

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Moderates control the party; there is not one of the new tea partiers who holds any real senior position of power in the GOP hierarchy.

If moderates had control of the party, there would be a common party platform, and a common approach to legislation. There isn't.

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I think also it would help if we avoided as much hyperbole and rhetoric as possible.  It's not really helpful, although it's tempting, to say tea partiers want to "purify" the party; they want to push the party's political principles and goals in a much different direction than they are now and that necessarily means challenging those who set, and who maintain, those current policies.

I got the "purify" word from Tea Partiers. Maybe all of them don't feel that way, but there are a lot of vocal ones who do.
 
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What makes a particular candidate "electable" is a very complicated analysis I would think.  For one thing, it depends on whether or not people turn out in the primaries to vote for a given candidate.  Almost by definition, if a candidate cannot get enough votes in the primary, he or she is unlikely to get enough votes in the actual election.  It also has a very large subjective component to it.  For example, many people would consider their favorite candidate to be the most electable because he/she is their favorite candidate.

"Electability" also contains a contradiction:  being "electable" in a party primary is not the same thing as being "electable" in the general election, but the candidate for the general election is the one chosen in the primary and therefore is always the one who was the most "electable" in that primary.  This contradiction pops up all the time on both sides of the political divide.

Electability in the general election is the important issue. And for that, the political leaning of the state is very important. A far right candidate is not likely to win in a Blue or Purple state. A GOP candidate who has not been thoroughly vetted is a risk in a Blue or Purple state. I won't go on about all the things that matter in the electability calculation - I'll just agree that it is complicated.

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Sorry for taking this in little out-of-order snippets.  If I knew how to achieve the compromise, then I'd be the frontrunner for presidential candidate right about now.  However, one approach that the moderates could take is to basically peel away a significant number of a tea party candidate's supporters by appealing to them directly in a way that doesn't put their beliefs and goals down, but that tries to put them into a broader context and, precisely, tries to convince them that having an 'R' win the election right now is more important than that the winning 'R' satisfy every last single desire of the voters.

I don't really want to take any of a tea party candidate's supporters away. And I don't want to argue - or even discuss - issues. No GOP office holder in Congress right now can get anything accomplished. And they never will as long as the dims have the Senate majority and a significant number of seats in the House. That's the problem I want to discuss. When I ask conservative friends how they would get {insert favorite bill here} passed without first getting a GOP majority, I don't get a plan or strategy in response. I get an argument for the issue.


Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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I missed the memo alerting us to the fact that in a nation of 320+ million people, that only a one-term Senator from a neighboring State, Massachusetts....a carpetbagger....is the "only" viable candidate.


So did I.

Offline Howie66

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We're talking primaries right now.  You would not vote against an incumbent if they bit you in the rear and stomped all over you... never, ever do you ever consider someone new might be better.

There is no better time to impose TERM LIMITS than during the primary season. What part of this SIMPLE FACT is so hard for some people to comprehend? Sheesh!
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I didn't enlist in the Corps just to watch my country become a Third World Communist Shit-hole. Don't know anyone who did.

Offline sinkspur

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There is no better time to impose TERM LIMITS than during the primary season. What part of this SIMPLE FACT is so hard for some people to comprehend? Sheesh!

They're unconstitutional for Congressional offices. 

Elections are the means for term limits.  You want a government solution to something you and your cohorts can't do through persuasion and campaigns.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline Rapunzel

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They're unconstitutional for Congressional offices. 

Elections are the means for term limits.  You want a government solution to something you and your cohorts can't do through persuasion and campaigns.


You clearly didn't understand his post.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline sinkspur

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Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.

Offline DCPatriot

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I've heard both 'for' and 'against' arguments regarding term limits.

It's been argued that terms limits would only make the corruption condensed and more brazen.   

Similar to a contest winner who has five minutes to fill one grocery cart and wheel it past the checkout.     :laugh:
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Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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Unfortunately, the decoder rings were on that Malaysian Airlines flight, so I don't think any of us will be getting them anytime soon!  :silly:

I don't think that anyone here would rather have a democrat elected if the republican on offer is unsavory (shall we say), but there are some people who are extremely dissatisfied with what they see from the average republican politician, and it is that dissatisfaction they focus on.

But when it comes to an actual vote, I think that everyone here would ultimately vote 'R', even if they had to remove their political olfactory organs to do it.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,130488.msg530321.html#msg530321
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I think I would prefer being represented by Democrats who stab me in the front, as opposed to the GOPe which stabs me in the back.  At least with Democrats I know who and what I am dealing with, and can much more easily prepare myself for what they have in store.

http://www.gopbriefingroom.com/index.php/topic,130117.msg528995.html#msg528995
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I could hold my nose and vote for Cornyn and McConnell.  As far as Alexander goes, If I lived in TN, I would probably vote democrat to replace that sorry piece of RINO.

Here are two real conservatives who vote rat.

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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I don't think the moderates have control of the party right now. The emotion is all with the Tea Party branch. I don't see them being willing to compromise. But I'm not sure what the compromise would be. It's a battle between gaining control of the Senate and purifying the party. Those two goals aren't often compatible. I'm sure that almost every moderate would vote for a Tea Party candidate in both the primary and general election if that candidate was the most electable GOP candidate in the state. And they would vote for that candidate in the general election if he or she won the primary. The Tea Party would only vote for their candidate in the primary, whether or not he or she had a better chance in the general than a more moderate candidate would. And they might just stay home if the moderate GOP candidate won the primary.

Cheer me up by convincing me that I'm wrong.  :shrug:
Can't do that when you're making so much sense.  I'm enjoying your post.  Keep doing it. :beer:

Offline Formerly Once-Ler

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That being said, reasonable minds would have to agree that it is the moderates who control the party and who have historically/traditionally controlled the party, and who tend to be a larger, but not overwhelming, portion of the members of the party.  As such, the moderates have an obligation to reach out to the dissidents - who this time around are the tea partiers - to see what they can do, without giving in to every Sharron Angle who comes around, to get some unity and cooperation to fight against the democrats rather than against each other.

The two factions of the GOP, conservatives and moderates, used to unite behind their common goal of defeating rats.  5 years of Obama rule yet some conservatives see no difference between the rats and the GOP so that fear of the rats no longer works.  I suggest a new unifying danger.



Seriously, your concerns are noted and thought provoking.  I think you make a compelling argument for bridging the animosity between the GOPe and the Tea Party.  However, from my perspective it would be better to negotiate a deal with the Tea Party after they are defeated in the primaries when the GOPe can demand unconditional surrender. 

Offline Rapunzel

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  I think you make a compelling argument for bridging the animosity between the GOPe and the Tea Party.  However, from my perspective it would be better to negotiate a deal with the Tea Party after they are defeated in the primaries when the GOPe can demand unconditional surrender.

Your solution is  recipe for pissing off the conservatives enough to sit home like they did in 2006 - if that is your desire keep posting what you've been posting, it's working.
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Rapunzel

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I would caution on this, don't let them dictate the terms of the debate.  What we are talking about here are not "moderates."  The better terms are Big Government Wing of the GOP, Statists, Neo-Statists (if you prefer Levin's nod to his GOP roots), Establishment Class, etc.  Leaving aside all of the "social or moral" issues (which I personally would like to see removed from government as much as possible), an honest and objective assessment of the performance of the GOP (when in control) over the past 100 years, certainly doesn't give one the impression of "moderation." 

Almost $18 Trillion in Debt (not even touching on the weight on the Trillions of unfunded liabilities), a FedGov:
- that spends $3.n Trillion per year (again, not counting the accrual for a couple Trillion in unfunded liabilities),
- that must borrow an obscene amount each day (regardless of the staggering amount of tax dollars sucked out of the private economy and private citizens),
- that now has more extra-Constitutional agencies (that takes two hands to count), and
- trots out a daily set of abuses of power (from the completely unleashed regulatory arms) that fills this forum (and others like it) with pages and pages of threads each day. 
No, this isn't the result of one party's abuses and disregard of the Constitution with another party "moderating" things.  It is the result of both parties being corrupted with (albeit different flavors of) statism, and a complete disregard for the constraints and guidance of the Constitution.

(I don't need to list all of the extra-Constitional Federal Agencies created, massive entitlement programs created or expanded, or any of the other completely un-Constitional measures established by the GOP.  Anyone paying attention over the past N years is well aware of them.  But just a peek at recent history should be representative: did you ever imagine that a GOP-controlled House would vote to not merely raise the Debt Limit, but "suspend" it, 3 times in a row now.  "Suspend" it, like it just doesn't exist.  A "blank check" delivered into the hands of the most abusive & corrupt regime ever to occupy DC.  No, these aren't "moderates.")

So no, it isn't a matter of making nice with the "moderates" so that we can all "win," link arms, and set about fixing things.  It is about removing the festering brood of statists, root and branch, from within the only party that can be salvaged at this point in time.  That's what this "debate" is all about.

First of all to repeat - I wasn't drunk when I posted what you quoted  :silly: :silly:

IT seems the moderates don't want term limits by election - all they want is power.  They don't care about government spending or big government as long as their 401K remains healthy and it seems they don't really give a fig about the constitution, either...  they are in the crowd who are going on "case law" vs the constitution - which has infected SCOTUS, too... IMHO..

Actually I would LOVE for the "moderates" who delight in mocking us conservatives, calling us names, marginalizing us, etc., to tell us exactly WHAT they do stand for other than they hate conservatives and will move heaven and earth to stop anyone from challenging a sitting GOPe senator no matter how bad a senator that may be,
�The time is now near at hand which must probably determine, whether Americans are to be, Freemen, or Slaves.� G Washington July 2, 1776

Offline Atomic Cow

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Your solution is  recipe for pissing off the conservatives enough to sit home like they did in 2006 - if that is your desire keep posting what you've been posting, it's working.

They'd rather have a liberal Democrat than a conservative Republican any day.
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Offline sinkspur

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Your solution is  recipe for pissing off the conservatives enough to sit home like they did in 2006 - if that is your desire keep posting what you've been posting, it's working.

The conservatives sat home in 2006 and 2012 so they could bitch and bellyache for the next two or four years.

The reason the Tea Party challengers this cycle are doing so poorly is that the other 75% of the Republican Party that is not Tea Party are tired of losing elections deferring to Sarah Palin's judgment.
Roy Moore's "spiritual warfare" is driving past a junior high without stopping.