Author Topic: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP  (Read 2901 times)

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Offline olde north church

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2014, 01:32:08 pm »
I'm going to jump in the fray (taking a risk, I know), and say that it cuts both ways.

The Republican party has, at least for the past 50 years, had a conservative wing and a moderate wing.

In the past, the two ends of the spectrum were able to unite for a common goal.  Now, we need to be united more than EVER before, because the left is tearing America apart.

BOTH sides need to swallow their pride and get the "big picture."

If we don't, we won't survive as a nation.

It's that simple.

Republican has Conservative and Liberal, not moderate.  Liberal = Rockefeller, Nixon, Dole, McCain, basically the "Establishment" types.  Somehow, Reagan snuck through but was limited by the Bush vice-presidency.  I don't believe Reagan wanted Bush anymore than the Establishment wanted Reagan.
The Liberal types aren't actually Republican.  They are Democrats in sheep's clothing.  They are always the lesser of the two evils.
I would say the actual types of Republicans are the SoCons, again, not actually Republicans and the Liberty Republicans, the only true Republicans. 

Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Online Bigun

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2014, 02:40:29 pm »
I'm curious, from one conservative to another......... how do you explain the low conservative voter turnout in 2012 (aside from the IRS, of course), if you don't think that conservatives 'sat it out' because Romney wasn't pure enough.  (Obviously, he wasn't the best choice, but the alternative was a Marxist!).

Even on this forum there have been posts saying a member would never vote for Christie.   And there are those who, on threads about how wretched this administration and the Dems are, almost always manage to take pot shots at Republicans.  First.

I think that Obama won in 2008 because of conservatives who wouldn't vote for McCain.  My view was, no matter how bad McCain was, he was a better alternative than a Communist thug.  I argued with so many people who said their 'conscience' would not allow them to vote for McCain or Romney.

Yet their "conscience" apparently DID allow them to help Obama win.

As I said earlier......I don't think the problem is one-sided.  And even though I'm a conservative Republican, I don't think the blame of missing the big picture is all on the side of the progressive Republicans.

And I fully agree with Oceander, that we need to stop shooting each other, and start shooting at the enemy.

JMHO

Having looked at the data regarding this quite closely I can tell you that many people who had voted in 2008 did not vote at all in 2012. (Obama received less votes in 2012 than 2008 and Romney received even less votes than McCain had 2008)  Why that was no one can definitively say with certainty because those people who choose to stay home are not generally revealing their whys.  I do have my own opinions about it and have no problem with sharing them with you here.

I think the drop off was largely in the South and the result of Southern Baptists staying home for religious reasons. IMHO it has nothing to do with anything else. There are those out there who will impose religious tests on  candidates regardless of anything the Constitution might say about it and there is little we can do about that.
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2014, 02:58:08 pm »
I'm curious, from one conservative to another......... how do you explain the low conservative voter turnout in 2012 (aside from the IRS, of course), if you don't think that conservatives 'sat it out' because Romney wasn't pure enough.  (Obviously, he wasn't the best choice, but the alternative was a Marxist!).

Even on this forum there have been posts saying a member would never vote for Christie.   And there are those who, on threads about how wretched this administration and the Dems are, almost always manage to take pot shots at Republicans.  First.

I think that Obama won in 2008 because of conservatives who wouldn't vote for McCain.  My view was, no matter how bad McCain was, he was a better alternative than a Communist thug.  I argued with so many people who said their 'conscience' would not allow them to vote for McCain or Romney.

Yet their "conscience" apparently DID allow them to help Obama win.

As I said earlier......I don't think the problem is one-sided.  And even though I'm a conservative Republican, I don't think the blame of missing the big picture is all on the side of the progressive Republicans.

And I fully agree with Oceander, that we need to stop shooting each other, and start shooting at the enemy.

JMHO

I'd like to throw some of my thoughts on this out there. 

There's no doubt that there was a contingent of conservatives (like a very vocal group on TOS) that didn't vote because Romney was a Mormon, but I don't think we're talking huge numbers there.

I also think that there were several pretty blatant occurences of voter fraud, especially in the urban precincts.  Don't discount this.

But here's another reason, voter disenchantment.  I hated John McCain but I voted for him anyway, although for a time I wrestled with it.  I didn't think Romney could win, but I voted for him anyway.  We conservatives are always being told that we have to pander to the moderates to win elections.  Not only do my guts tell me this isn't true - but the proof is in the inability of the GOP to win presidential elections.  A lot of people are just sick and tired of being lied to, being insulted and being taken for granted BY BOTH PARTIES. 

Like it or not, this is a real movement that's afoot!  The Tea Party came about because of this disillusionment.  We want to get the size and scope of government in control - OUR control, not the other way around.  Government has forgotten it's place.

Blaming the voter for deciding not to participate in a futile exercise is like blaming the rape victim for rape.  Establishment cheerleaders are always quick to blame the voter - but rarely turn that blame on themselves.  If people aren't voting for a party - maybe, just maybe - it's the party's fault!  When the GOP has been in power, they have abused it just like the Democrats.

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Online Bigun

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2014, 03:01:44 pm »
I'd like to throw some of my thoughts on this out there. 

There's no doubt that there was a contingent of conservatives (like a very vocal group on TOS) that didn't vote because Romney was a Mormon, but I don't think we're talking huge numbers there.

I also think that there were several pretty blatant occurences of voter fraud, especially in the urban precincts.  Don't discount this.

But here's another reason, voter disenchantment.  I hated John McCain but I voted for him anyway, although for a time I wrestled with it.  I didn't think Romney could win, but I voted for him anyway.  We conservatives are always being told that we have to pander to the moderates to win elections.  Not only do my guts tell me this isn't true - but the proof is in the inability of the GOP to win presidential elections.  A lot of people are just sick and tired of being lied to, being insulted and being taken for granted BY BOTH PARTIES. 

Like it or not, this is a real movement that's afoot!  The Tea Party came about because of this disillusionment.  We want to get the size and scope of government in control - OUR control, not the other way around.  Government has forgotten it's place.

Blaming the voter for deciding not to participate in a futile exercise is like blaming the rape victim for rape.  Establishment cheerleaders are always quick to blame the voter - but rarely turn that blame on themselves.  If people aren't voting for a party - maybe, just maybe - it's the party's fault!  When the GOP has been in power, they have abused it just like the Democrats.

Well said Alice! Well said indeed!

I am one of those who played nice with the establishment for years but will no more!
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Oceander

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2014, 03:07:57 pm »
I'd like to throw some of my thoughts on this out there. 

There's no doubt that there was a contingent of conservatives (like a very vocal group on TOS) that didn't vote because Romney was a Mormon, but I don't think we're talking huge numbers there.

I also think that there were several pretty blatant occurences of voter fraud, especially in the urban precincts.  Don't discount this.

But here's another reason, voter disenchantment.  I hated John McCain but I voted for him anyway, although for a time I wrestled with it.  I didn't think Romney could win, but I voted for him anyway.  We conservatives are always being told that we have to pander to the moderates to win elections.  Not only do my guts tell me this isn't true - but the proof is in the inability of the GOP to win presidential elections.  A lot of people are just sick and tired of being lied to, being insulted and being taken for granted BY BOTH PARTIES. 

Like it or not, this is a real movement that's afoot!  The Tea Party came about because of this disillusionment.  We want to get the size and scope of government in control - OUR control, not the other way around.  Government has forgotten it's place.

Blaming the voter for deciding not to participate in a futile exercise is like blaming the rape victim for rape.  Establishment cheerleaders are always quick to blame the voter - but rarely turn that blame on themselves.  If people aren't voting for a party - maybe, just maybe - it's the party's fault!  When the GOP has been in power, they have abused it just like the Democrats.



and conservatives are out there demanding that they be pandered to as a quid pro quo for their votes.

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2014, 03:10:01 pm »
Well said Alice! Well said indeed!

I am one of those who played nice with the establishment for years but will no more!

We're not alone Bigun.  The powers that be - on both sides of the aisle - are huddled together and actively using their considerable influence to put us down.  We see their minions everywhere.  It's not just the Democrat sheeple that get their daily talking points - the GOPe is getting pretty good at it too.
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Offline alicewonders

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2014, 03:15:11 pm »
and conservatives are out there demanding that they be pandered to as a quid pro quo for their votes.

The very essence of a vote is for a quid pro quo!  Why vote for someone if there isn't something there for you?  Why do you think the Democrats are so effective at this?  Because they promise something in return!  The Republican party only promises to give us a government that is marginally better than those "other guys". 

Okay, so a lot of people hate conservatives for demanding that they - in their considerable numbers - be heard.  That's the way the game is played, and the Republican party has come to take conservative votes for granted - always with the promise that the big fight is "coming".  It never does. 
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Online Bigun

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2014, 03:19:35 pm »
and conservatives are out there demanding that they be pandered to as a quid pro quo for their votes.

"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what a people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

Frederick Douglass August 4, 1857

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Offline musiclady

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2014, 03:25:26 pm »
Having looked at the data regarding this quite closely I can tell you that many people who had voted in 2008 did not vote at all in 2012. (Obama received less votes in 2012 than 2008 and Romney received even less votes than McCain had 2008)  Why that was no one can definitively say with certainty because those people who choose to stay home are not generally revealing their whys.  I do have my own opinions about it and have no problem with sharing them with you here.

I think the drop off was largely in the South and the result of Southern Baptists staying home for religious reasons. IMHO it has nothing to do with anything else. There are those out there who will impose religious tests on  candidates regardless of anything the Constitution might say about it and there is little we can do about that.

Definitely a possibility, Bigun.  There was a lot of unthinking bigotry (in my view) tossed around about Romney.  The left, of course, glommed on to it and advertised it, and perhaps it got even worse because of their love of dividing us.

Unfortunately, sometimes we (not you and me, but conservatives in general) help them succeed by not grasping how dangerous today's Democrat party is to the very survival of America.

That's why I am praying already for the 2016 election.  If America is to survive, we need a real leader to rise up and run for President.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

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Oceander

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2014, 03:25:42 pm »
We're not alone Bigun.  The powers that be - on both sides of the aisle - are huddled together and actively using their considerable influence to put us down.  We see their minions everywhere.  It's not just the Democrat sheeple that get their daily talking points - the GOPe is getting pretty good at it too.

One person's "talking points" are another person's statements of principle and demonstration of a united front to the opposition.

Conservatives need to start getting realistic about some things:

(1) they need to realize that they are never going to get everything they want; nobody ever does, as Reagan was quite well aware;

(2) as a corrollary to that they need to realize that the two choices they have are (a) getting some, but not all, of what they want, or (b) getting nothing;

(3) they need to realize that finding common ground with as many people as possible is how you win elections, and that in order to do that you need to reach an accomodation with those others that leaves everyone as dissatisfied as possible;

(4) because of that they need to learn the art of the strategic compromise; that is, they need to prioritize what they want and figure out what the price of compromise is for each item on that list, just as Reagan did; and, finally,

(5) if you think Mitch McConnell and the so-called "GOPe" are a bitch, then you've clearly forgotten, or never learned the lessons of, 2008 to 2010, when the democrats dominated Congress.


Oceander

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2014, 03:29:43 pm »
"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what a people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

Frederick Douglass August 4, 1857



And those who spit into the wind cannot complain when it hits them in the face.

If one wishes to be a martyr, then by all means that person is entitled to stand solely on the narrow confines of her or his own dogma and refuse to budge one inch therefrom.  I don't wish to be a martyr and as much as I would prefer not to, I will do what I have to in order to keep the would-be martyrs on this side of the political dividing line from dragging me down with them.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2014, 03:32:58 pm »
Republican has Conservative and Liberal, not moderate.  Liberal = Rockefeller, Nixon, Dole, McCain, basically the "Establishment" types.  Somehow, Reagan snuck through but was limited by the Bush vice-presidency.  I don't believe Reagan wanted Bush anymore than the Establishment wanted Reagan.
The Liberal types aren't actually Republican.  They are Democrats in sheep's clothing.  They are always the lesser of the two evils.
I would say the actual types of Republicans are the SoCons, again, not actually Republicans and the Liberty Republicans, the only true Republicans.

Well, as much as I understand what you're saying, the 'liberal types' ARE Republicans.  The Republicans have always been a split party, and most of the time, the moderate/liberal part has held sway.  (When was the last conservative before Reagan?  Coolidge, right?  And wasn't he the only one?)

The Republican party, like it or not, is not a conservative party.  Never has been.  It's just the closest party to the conservative values we have.  (And I'm including the Libertarian party in that, which is, IMO, more liberal than even the GOPe are).

For me the bottom line is that we MUST defeat the Democrats.  We are dealing with a Democrat party that the Communist party celebrates.  We have GOT to reconcile our differences, or the country won't make it.

And as discouraged as I am, I still love America, and want this once great nation to survive.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2014, 03:43:56 pm »
One person's "talking points" are another person's statements of principle and demonstration of a united front to the opposition.

Conservatives need to start getting realistic about some things:

(1) they need to realize that they are never going to get everything they want; nobody ever does, as Reagan was quite well aware;

(2) as a corrollary to that they need to realize that the two choices they have are (a) getting some, but not all, of what they want, or (b) getting nothing;

(3) they need to realize that finding common ground with as many people as possible is how you win elections, and that in order to do that you need to reach an accomodation with those others that leaves everyone as dissatisfied as possible;

(4) because of that they need to learn the art of the strategic compromise; that is, they need to prioritize what they want and figure out what the price of compromise is for each item on that list, just as Reagan did; and, finally,

(5) if you think Mitch McConnell and the so-called "GOPe" are a bitch, then you've clearly forgotten, or never learned the lessons of, 2008 to 2010, when the democrats dominated Congress.

I don't see Democrats "compromise" very often on their principles.  Sure, there's a lot you can and should compromise - but your core principles?  That of smaller government that doesn't spend beyond it's means?  That of a government that obeys the laws already on the books instead of making new ones that won't be obeyed either?  That of a government that doesn't infringe our rights which are endowed by our creator?   That of protecting our Constitution?  That of rewarding good behaviour such as working, saving and producing?

It's the compromising of our principles by the GOPe that have brought us to today.  They enabled the election of Barack Obama, their compromises enabled the progressives to run roughshod over our society and system of checks and balances.  What is it going to take to make the rest of you as mad as some of us already are? 
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Offline musiclady

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2014, 03:52:13 pm »
I don't see Democrats "compromise" very often on their principles.  Sure, there's a lot you can and should compromise - but your core principles?  That of smaller government that doesn't spend beyond it's means?  That of a government that obeys the laws already on the books instead of making new ones that won't be obeyed either?  That of a government that doesn't infringe our rights which are endowed by our creator?   That of protecting our Constitution?  That of rewarding good behaviour such as working, saving and producing?

It's the compromising of our principles by the GOPe that have brought us to today.  They enabled the election of Barack Obama, their compromises enabled the progressives to run roughshod over our society and system of checks and balances.  What is it going to take to make the rest of you as mad as some of us already are?

I don't think it's that the 'rest of us' aren't as mad as you are, alice.  I'm furious and frustrated.

But I don't equate the what are being called Republican Progressives with Democrat Progressives and Marxists.  When I look at the problems being caused by the left, I don't first blame the "GOPe" and then move on.  YES.  The Republican party has failed to stop the left from taking over.  YES.  They have been complicit in growing government to its leviathan size.

But they are not the equivalent to the left, which hates our military, wants to kill babies after birth, wants a completely dependent under-class to control, has absolutely NO moral compass, lies, cheats, steals, shreds the Constitution beyond recognition with dictatorial powers.

No.

There are plenty of Republicans who need to be booted, but by the same token there are an increasing number that are doing the RIGHT thing.

IMO, that is the direction we need to go to survive.  Elect more principled Republicans.  Get rid of the dead wood.

But we have to do this TOGETHER.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline truth_seeker

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2014, 04:03:55 pm »
I don't see Democrats "compromise" very often on their principles.  Sure, there's a lot you can and should compromise - but your core principles?  That of smaller government that doesn't spend beyond it's means?  That of a government that obeys the laws already on the books instead of making new ones that won't be obeyed either?  That of a government that doesn't infringe our rights which are endowed by our creator?   That of protecting our Constitution?  That of rewarding good behaviour such as working, saving and producing?

It's the compromising of our principles by the GOPe that have brought us to today.  They enabled the election of Barack Obama, their compromises enabled the progressives to run roughshod over our society and system of checks and balances.  What is it going to take to make the rest of you as mad as some of us already are?
We each have a say in just 3 contests; two Senators and one House rep. Our fellow residents will determine what kind of Republican they wish to nominate to run in those 3 contests.

In virtually all cases, those Republicans which our fellow residents select, will be well to the right of their democrat opponents.

There is a finite limit to the time, money and energy available for politics. Spending too much of it by Republicans more eager to replace Republicans, instead of replacing democrats is to my mind, not wise at all.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline alicewonders

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #40 on: March 13, 2014, 04:06:25 pm »
I don't think it's that the 'rest of us' aren't as mad as you are, alice.  I'm furious and frustrated.

But I don't equate the what are being called Republican Progressives with Democrat Progressives and Marxists.  When I look at the problems being caused by the left, I don't first blame the "GOPe" and then move on.  YES.  The Republican party has failed to stop the left from taking over.  YES.  They have been complicit in growing government to its leviathan size.

But they are not the equivalent to the left, which hates our military, wants to kill babies after birth, wants a completely dependent under-class to control, has absolutely NO moral compass, lies, cheats, steals, shreds the Constitution beyond recognition with dictatorial powers.

No.

There are plenty of Republicans who need to be booted, but by the same token there are an increasing number that are doing the RIGHT thing.

IMO, that is the direction we need to go to survive.  Elect more principled Republicans.  Get rid of the dead wood.

But we have to do this TOGETHER.



No, they are not "the equivalent to the left".  They have become "the lesser of two evils".


"There are plenty of Republicans who need to be booted, but by the same token there are an increasing number that are doing the RIGHT thing."

Completely agree, let's encourage those that are doing the right thing.  Let's not call them names and mock them - or support those that do.

"IMO, that is the direction we need to go to survive.  Elect more principled Republicans.  Get rid of the dead wood."

I could not agree more.  Some of that dead wood may have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfy lifetime careers.  It won't be easy.

Don't tread on me.   8888madkitty

We told you Trump would win - bigly!

Oceander

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #41 on: March 13, 2014, 04:14:24 pm »
I don't see Democrats "compromise" very often on their principles.  Sure, there's a lot you can and should compromise - but your core principles?  That of smaller government that doesn't spend beyond it's means?  That of a government that obeys the laws already on the books instead of making new ones that won't be obeyed either?  That of a government that doesn't infringe our rights which are endowed by our creator?   That of protecting our Constitution?  That of rewarding good behaviour such as working, saving and producing?

It's the compromising of our principles by the GOPe that have brought us to today.  They enabled the election of Barack Obama, their compromises enabled the progressives to run roughshod over our society and system of checks and balances.  What is it going to take to make the rest of you as mad as some of us already are? 

You haven't?  Democrats wanted a single-payor government-only health care system, but didn't get it; they had to compromise on that to get what they got, even if that compromise was simply within their own party.

And that, my friend, should be lesson #1 to all republicans/conservatives right now - work out a healthy compromise within your own ranks, or you'll get nothing from the other side.

And, quite frankly, republicans have lost because they've done an utterly miserable job at explaining in plain English to the uncommitted, Ms. and Mr. Sixpack, why what they want to do will be good for America.  Mostly what I hear from republicans, especially conservatives, is they hate this, they don't like that, and they're going to get rid of it all when they get into power.  I almost never hear them propose workable alternatives to replace what they wish to extirpate.  And quite frankly, some of the republican positions require a good explanation because some of them - like cutting entitlements - are counterintuitive.  How do you explain to someone who's unemployed that it'll be good for them if we get rid of unemployment compensation?  How do you tell someone who depends on subsidized housing that it'll be good for them if we get rid of social welfare entitlements, including subsidized housing?

When someone like that listens to most of what comes from the republicans, he or she is not being unreasonable if he/she comes away with the impression - mistaken as it might be - that the republicans will simply uproot what they depend on immediately and will put nothing in its place.  For someone who depends on subsidized housing, that raises the fear - a fear that the democrats are only too happy to stoke - that if a republican majority is elected, they and their possessions will be dumped on the curb the day after.  That's an extremely scary proposition to someone who has grown dependent on subsidized housing.  And, quite frankly, who can blame them?  If the choices presented are (a) stay in the house you have, or (b) get chucked to the curb, which would you pick?  Anyone who says they'd choose (b) is simply lying.

And please don't bring out this little example or that little example, as "proof" that conservatives have really made an effort to put forth alternatives, as refutation of my argument.  What I'm talking about is a return to the Reaganesque ability to paint a positive future for people and to convince them that you care about them, that you can make it possible for them to reach that future, and that you won't leave the poorest of them behind.

But that's not what I hear mostly coming from conservatives and republicans.  I hear demonization of the poor as slackers, loafers, idlers who mooch off the system, and categorical demands for them to be dropped like hot potatoes from government entitlements.  And that just feeds right into the false myths put out by the democrats because all they have to do is point to what's coming from the republicans themselves and say "look, see, they really are going to put you out on the street if you vote for them."

« Last Edit: March 13, 2014, 04:14:42 pm by Oceander »

Offline olde north church

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #42 on: March 13, 2014, 04:18:45 pm »
Well, as much as I understand what you're saying, the 'liberal types' ARE Republicans.  The Republicans have always been a split party, and most of the time, the moderate/liberal part has held sway.  (When was the last conservative before Reagan?  Coolidge, right?  And wasn't he the only one?)

The Republican party, like it or not, is not a conservative party.  Never has been.  It's just the closest party to the conservative values we have.  (And I'm including the Libertarian party in that, which is, IMO, more liberal than even the GOPe are).

For me the bottom line is that we MUST defeat the Democrats.  We are dealing with a Democrat party that the Communist party celebrates.  We have GOT to reconcile our differences, or the country won't make it.

And as discouraged as I am, I still love America, and want this once great nation to survive.

Until recently I've viewed the Republicans as consisting of three parts, finances/business sense in the Northeast, soul in the South and spirit in the West.  I don't view it that way anymore. 
I believe these groups are more at odds than at any time.  Perhaps it's time for new alliances.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #43 on: March 13, 2014, 05:48:50 pm »


No, they are not "the equivalent to the left".  They have become "the lesser of two evils".


"There are plenty of Republicans who need to be booted, but by the same token there are an increasing number that are doing the RIGHT thing."

Completely agree, let's encourage those that are doing the right thing.  Let's not call them names and mock them - or support those that do.

"IMO, that is the direction we need to go to survive.  Elect more principled Republicans.  Get rid of the dead wood."

I could not agree more.  Some of that dead wood may have to be dragged kicking and screaming out of their comfy lifetime careers.  It won't be easy.

Dead wood McCain might just never leave his now cushy life.....      **nononono*

I do believe we are in complete agreement here.  I seriously believe that there are some encouraging candidates stepping forward who seem to be principled people strong enough to fight the right battles.

However, as we have all seen, many of those promising people get sucked down the DC toilet and their conservatism goes right down with them.   As one who has always been to the right of the bulk of the party, I have never expected full agreement from our elected officials, but as you have previously stated, there are certain things that we have to stand for and not let go.

I am often reminded of the scene in Fiddler on the Roof where Tevye is debating with himself about his daughters, and says repeatedly..."on the other hand......"  But he gets to the point where he shouts "NO! There IS no other hand!"

I believe we may well be at that point in America.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #44 on: March 13, 2014, 05:50:32 pm »
Until recently I've viewed the Republicans as consisting of three parts, finances/business sense in the Northeast, soul in the South and spirit in the West.  I don't view it that way anymore. 
I believe these groups are more at odds than at any time.  Perhaps it's time for new alliances.

Do you have any thoughts on what those new alliances might be?  (I definitely agree that we're fractured).
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2014, 06:05:13 pm »
Do you have any thoughts on what those new alliances might be?  (I definitely agree that we're fractured).

1.  Peter King - NY - does he care about anything except NY and terror?

2.  Steve King - IA - cares about deficit.

3.  Rand Paul - "Liberty"

4.  Darrell Issa - something

In other words, no idea.  I do believe the west and the east will probably stick together for a while longer than the south.  You can't have liberty without money.  The liberty people are more concerned with their privacy.
There is opportunity for the Religious Right and the Religious Black though if approached correctly.  The first people the Evangelicals put into office was Jimmy Carter.
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline musiclady

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #46 on: March 13, 2014, 06:15:47 pm »
1.  Peter King - NY - does he care about anything except NY and terror?

2.  Steve King - IA - cares about deficit.

3.  Rand Paul - "Liberty"

4.  Darrell Issa - something

In other words, no idea.  I do believe the west and the east will probably stick together for a while longer than the south.  You can't have liberty without money.  The liberty people are more concerned with their privacy.
There is opportunity for the Religious Right and the Religious Black though if approached correctly.  The first people the Evangelicals put into office was Jimmy Carter.

Hey now.  I was a young Evangelical (as was my husband), and neither of us voted for Carter (nor was I acquainted with a single Christian who did).   Just because the news presented him as born-again doesn't mean we fell for it and voted the wrong way.  It was Richard Nixon who gave the '76 election to Jimmy Carter.  NOT the Christian community.

I do, however, think that those of us who believe in traditional marriage and the sanctity of life have a natural coalition.

But we have to fight the libertarian AND the economic wing of the party that want us to sit down and shut up.

There's a huge group who identify with Tea Party principles, but I'm not sure we can survive the smears from both the left and the Beltway Good Ol' Boys who don't want to lose their power for the sake of principle.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

I wear a mask as an exercise in liberty and love for others.  To see it as an infringement of liberty is to entirely miss the point.  Be kind.

"Sometimes I think the Church would be better off if we would call a moratorium on activity for about six weeks and just wait on God to see what He is waiting to do for us. That's what they did before Pentecost."   - A. W. Tozer

Use the time God is giving us to seek His will and feel His presence.

Offline olde north church

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Re: Dreaming of 'President Ted Cruz' will turn into a nightmare for the GOP
« Reply #47 on: March 13, 2014, 07:22:23 pm »
Hey now.  I was a young Evangelical (as was my husband), and neither of us voted for Carter (nor was I acquainted with a single Christian who did).   Just because the news presented him as born-again doesn't mean we fell for it and voted the wrong way.  It was Richard Nixon who gave the '76 election to Jimmy Carter.  NOT the Christian community.

I do, however, think that those of us who believe in traditional marriage and the sanctity of life have a natural coalition.

But we have to fight the libertarian AND the economic wing of the party that want us to sit down and shut up.

There's a huge group who identify with Tea Party principles, but I'm not sure we can survive the smears from both the left and the Beltway Good Ol' Boys who don't want to lose their power for the sake of principle.

Will be back with further comment ---
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.