THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA

[musiclady]

Mr. M and I attended our presbytery meeting last week and just couldn't take it (thank goodness we could blame our bad backs for walking out after 2 hours and 15 minutes). All they cared about was how to maintain the bureaucracy. So what if our presbytery alone has lost 2/3 of its membership over the past few decades? They don't even stop to wonder why.

It's just like the NYT and their readership, or CNN and their viewership.

No one on the radical left 'stops' and 'wonders' anything that those of us who are sane question.

[mountaineer]

Presbyterians Escalate War on Jews
Jonathan S. Tobin | @tobincommentary
 05.06.2014 - 5:20 PM 

In February of this year I wrote about the latest instance of the Presbyterian Church USA engaging in hostile behavior toward both Israel and the Jewish people. A new study guide and companion CD about the Middle East published by an official Presbyterian group sought to delegitimize Israel and whitewash those who wage war and terrorism against it. Even worse, it compared Zionism to anti-Semitism and said that American Jews who supported Israel were not faithful to their religion. On top of the denomination’s past flirtations with the BDS (boycott, divest, sanction) movement that seeks to wage economic war on Israel, the study guide demonstrated just how deep the hatred for Jews had become among some church officials. But an even more recent incident illustrates that these episodes are not aberrations but reflect a clear desire on the part of church cadres to treat any normal contact with Jews as beyond the pale.

What has happened is that a Virginia Beach pastor who was slated to take a leadership role in a church forum at its annual General Assembly has been pressured to resign by Presbyterian Church USA officials. What was his offense? Taking part in two trips to Israel sponsored by a Jewish group. As Rev. Albert Butzer relates in a piece he wrote about his experience for The Presbyterian Outlook, he had looked forward to being the official moderator of the Committee on Middle East Issues at the denomination’s General Assembly. But he was forced out when it came out that he had gone to Israel on trips organized by the Jewish Community Federation of Richmond, Virginia. Though he had previously been to the region on two trips organized by the Palestinians, the mere fact that he had been exposed to Israel’s side of the story in the conflict was enough to brand him as untrustworthy. ...

Read the rest at Commentary Magazine

[musiclady]

Yet another example of how the radical left in America is trying to silence the voice of ANY opinion other than their own.

Only when that voice is in support of Israel, and it is a 'church' shutting it down, they are treading in dangerous waters.

God is not mocked, PCUSA.

[mountaineer]

GA is next month in the vacation spot of America, Detroit. I hope they have a swell time. 

[mountaineer]

Here we go:

Stated Clerk asks President to honor protections afforded to children


July 11, 2014
Office of the General Assembly
Gradye Parsons
Stated Clerk of the General Assembly.
Louisville


The Reverend Gradye Parsons, Stated Clerk of the General Assembly, wrote a letter to the President of the United States expressing concern for the protection of unaccompanied children. The full letter is posted below.

July 8, 2014

President Barack Obama
 The White House
 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
 Washington, DC 20500

Dear President Obama,

I write to you today on behalf of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) to express deep concern regarding the implication that your administration may seek to relax the protections afforded to unaccompanied children under the Trafficking Victims Protection Reauthorization Act (TVPRA).

While it is clear that our current immigration judicial system is ill-equipped to respond to the needs that the tens of thousands of unaccompanied children present, the answer to this problem should not involve the curtailment of protections to children during their hour of need. The United States often calls upon other countries that are less equipped to accept persons fleeing dangerous circumstances.[1] It is now our nation’s turn to do what we have asked so many other countries to do before.

I am grateful that your budget request submitted to Congress on Tuesday includes money for more immigration judges, legal orientation, and legal representation services. This request could bring relief to the overwhelmed judicial system while also honoring the protections that ensure each child receive a full and fair hearing on any humanitarian claim he or she may make.

The implication, however, that the administration must also make changes to the TVPRA or give the Secretary of Homeland Security authority to exercise discretion thereby administratively diminishing the protections of the TVPRA is unacceptable.

As required by the TVPRA, unaccompanied children must:
Be placed in the least restrictive setting that is in the best interest of the child;
Not be placed in a secured facility unless they are a danger to themselves or others or have been charged with a criminal offense;
Receive legal orientation;
Have access to counsel;
Receive a child advocate;
Have their asylum or other relief from deportation applications considered using procedures that take into account their specialized needs as unaccompanied children; and
Be in contact with federal personnel who have had specialized training to work with unaccompanied children and identify children for trafficking victimization and asylum or other special immigrant relief.

Anything less than these standards will place children at risk of being returned to dangerous and exploitative situations. Our country cannot take away these vital protections when there are so many vulnerable children in need of them.

In Christ,

The Reverend Gradye Parsons
 Stated Clerk of the General Assembly
 Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)


[1]Anne C. Richard, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Population, Refugees, and Migration, U.S. Department of State. Statement to the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights and Human Rights, January 2014. www.state.gov/j/prm/releases/remarks/2014/219388.htm.

Link

This came to me from the presbytery with a request for donations.

[musiclady]

Does the PCUSA ever bother with the Gospel these days, or is it simply a Democrat political machine and nothing more?

I'm waiting for them to start screaming "KILL THE JEWS!"   

[mountaineer]

Does the PCUSA ever bother with the Gospel these days, or is it simply a Democrat political machine and nothing more?

I'm waiting for them to start screaming "KILL THE JEWS!"   

I'm sure you heard about their divestiture vote at GA a few weeks ago. They sure do hate those pesky Israelis. Kind of like pharoah!

[mountaineer]

The PCUSA soldiers on (another letter from the presbytery) ...

Here is a firsthand account that we received last Saturday from our friends in Arizona, "a brief piece of info of what is happening in Yuma and nationwide in regard to the homeless refugee children and families coming across our border.

           Friday David Hicks reached out to PDA because the situation is getting too big for the Yuma ecumenical association to manage.  This morning both PDA and Church World Services contacted him to get more info and (hooray!) actually asked him, "What do you need?" Yes!!! He told me he's hoping to find someplace other than church basements to house these moms and kids, like maybe someplace with showers? It might involve rent. Food is coming in from the area food bank, and the churches can provide people to be with the immigrants.

           One of the issues making it harder is the fact that anyone who can leave Yuma in the summer does so. Meaning that he won't be able to inform his own elders until Sunday - other churches of course have the same problem.

           Another issue is the expense of transporting migrants from where ICE drops them off to where ever they have family and/or connections. The cost for transporting people is  picked up by their family.

            Again, these are not primarily Mexicans, so when the GOP screams "ship 'em home!" it's not that simple. They are not here looking for landscaping or housecleaning jobs, they are trying to escape death squads and drug cartels. [That's what they say, anyway --- mountaineer]  So Church World Services may be instrumental in getting them recognized as refugees.

            The PCUSA is mobilizing through PDA (Presby Disaster Assistance.) There was a joint synod meeting from AZ thru TX this morning talking about all the different situations with children that are coming across. Right now, the PCUSA is not really going to be addressing the root of the problem in central America, but that will come later, probably through the peacemaking office in DC. What is happening will be a nationwide appeal for funds for these children. Yuma will be receiving part of these funds.

Churches in Yuma already have feet on the ground and have people ready to help when refugees are dropped off at Wal Mart. These refugees are in incredible need, usually in a state of shock for the journey they have been through in the past month, and have family awaiting them somewhere in the nation. They are paroled from the border patrol, so they are documented, but have no language or (U.S.) cultural skills, etc. The churches only have them for about 24 hours, and then they move on to join family members. They will be required to appear in court, and most will be returned to their nation of origin.

For anyone looking for ways to help, watch for the appeals from the nationwide church, and give generously. There will be an PDA account number associated with this cause. "

[mountaineer]

From Landon Whitsitt, who has an official position with the PCUSA synod of Mid-America:

A Call to Presbyterians to Stand in Solidarity with the People of Ferguson

Sisters and Brothers of the Presbyterian Church (USA):

I write you today in my role as the Executive of the Synod of Mid-America regarding the past week’s events in Ferguson, MO, a community in the Giddings-Lovejoy Presbytery, one of our member presbyteries. I am appealing to you on behalf of those suffering in our own backyard.

For 10 days, the eyes of the world have been focused on the town of Ferguson, MO. We have watched as the family and friends of Michael Brown grieve the horrendous and senseless loss of life of this young man. We have watched as the Ferguson community and people throughout the nation and world have expressed outrage over the killing of yet another unarmed young black man. We have watched as law enforcement has repeatedly inflamed and aggravated the situation, arresting peaceful protesters and using tear gas on the crowds that include children and elderly, the use of which is a war crime under international law.

It is good that we have watched and not turned away. Many have come to believe that we have moved past Watts, that we have moved past LA. But we have not. The testimony of those who have lived through some of the worst moments of our nation’s history has born witness that we have, again, arrived at a familiar place. We are, again, singing the same old song. We must not turn our faces away, we must force ourselves to acknowledge and admit that we continue to fail as a people. We must confess that we have not been the people that God has created and called us to be.

Today I call on the Presbyterian Church (USA) to do more than simply watch.

For several years, our denomination has engaged the words of the Belhar Confession as we have considered adding it to our official confessional standards. Whether or not that occurs, we can affirm the truth of its words:

We believe

·      that God has revealed himself as the one who wishes to bring about justice and true peace among people;

·      that God, in a world full of injustice and enmity, is in a special way the God of the destitute, the poor and the wronged

·      that God calls the church to follow him in this; for God brings justice to the oppressed and gives bread to the hungry;

·      that God frees the prisoner and restores sight to the blind;

·      that God supports the downtrodden, protects the stranger, helps orphans and widows and blocks the path of the ungodly;

·      that for God pure and undefiled religion is to visit the orphans and the widows in their suffering;

·      that God wishes to teach the church to do what is good and to seek the right;

·      that the church must therefore stand by people in any form of suffering and need, which implies, among other things, that the church must witness against and strive against any form of injustice, so that justice may roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream;

·      that the church as the possession of God must stand where the Lord stands, namely against injustice and with the wronged; that in following Christ the church must witness against all the powerful and privileged who selfishly seek their own interests and thus control and harm others.

To this end, I call on the members and congregations of the Presbyterian Church (USA), over 90% of whom are White, to stand with the people of Ferguson and “witness against and strive against” systemic, institutionalize racial injustice.

We must “as the possession of God…stand where the Lord stands, namely against the injustice of the wronged.” Sisters and Brothers, we must stand arm in arm with the people of Ferguson. Black bodies matter and our white bodies will signify that the killing of black bodies is unacceptable.

If you live in or around St Louis please come and walk with the protestors. Listen to their cries, and join them in the call for justice.

If you live farther away, find the members of your own community who are standing against this injustice. Listen to their cries, and join them in their own call for justice.

The Brief Statement of Faith tells us that the Holy Spirit “gives us courage…to work with others for justice, freedom, and peace.” So as we work, let us also pray.

Let us pray for:

·      an end to our warring madness

·      an end to racism, classism and the way we criminalize a whole generation of youth and young adults

·      peace officers, that they may keep the peace with justice and equity

·      mothers who have lost their children to gun violence

·      the courage to cross lines that we have never crossed, and to come to know those we have considered "other"

·      to see one another as those who are made in God's image

·      forgiveness for the ways in which we perpetuate fear and hatred

·      forgiveness for the silence of good people.

 

Rev. Landon Whitsitt

Executive and Stated Clerk of the Synod of Mid-America

[GourmetDan]

The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess.

The nature of the office is to be a 'people-pleaser'.  Being a liberal 'people-pleaser' is much easier than being a conservative shepherd and that won't change.

Even in the most conservative denominations, I would not recommend 'following' a leader.

You really need to be your own pastor, but that takes more work...

[Dexter]

What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy? Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God? Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate? It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.

[GourmetDan]

What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy? Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God? Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate? It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.

"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." - Hebrews 10:24-25

[Dexter]

"And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." - Hebrews 10:24-25

That doesn't say anything about a church or pastors; it also doesn't really answer my question.

[GourmetDan]

That doesn't say anything about a church or pastors; it also doesn't really answer my question.

Suit yourself...   

[jmyrlefuller]

That doesn't say anything about a church or pastors; it also doesn't really answer my question.

It says everything about a church—by definition, it is a congregation (as some have translated that word from the original Greek) of believers.

What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy? Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God? Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate? It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.

Jesus says “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them.” (Matthew 18:20)

One cannot be a Christian in a vacuum. The gathering of fellow believers has been a key part of Christianity since the time Jesus was on this Earth. The church is not a building, a structure, or even a pastor or organization. It is the group of people who come together in the Lord's name.

[Dexter]

It says everything about a church—by definition, it is a congregation (as some have translated that word from the original Greek) of believers.
 Jesus says “For where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am with them.” (Matthew 18:20)

One cannot be a Christian in a vacuum. The gathering of fellow believers has been a key part of Christianity since the time Jesus was on this Earth. The church is not a building, a structure, or even a pastor or organization. It is the group of people who come together in the Lord's name.

So a bunch of Christians could see each other and celebrate God in a field or in one of their homes and it would be just as good as doing it in a church?


EDIT: Also...


church
CHərCH/
noun
noun: church; plural noun: churches

    1.
    a building used for public Christian worship.
    "they came to church with me"
    synonyms:   place of worship, house of God, house of worship; More

[mountaineer]

What is it about a church and listening to a pastor that makes it more sacred or holy?

No one made such a claim, so I'm not sure why you're asking.

Do you really need a third party to find your connection to God?

No, but our pastors are there to teach us and help us better understand Scripture.

Is praying at home and being a good Christian without the church somehow less legitimate?

Not sure how you define "being a good Christian," so it's hard to respond to that question. Simply praying at home doesn't make one a Christian. At the same time, as the late Keith Green used to say, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger. It depends on your relationship with God.

It doesn't make sense to me that a building constructed by humans somehow amplifies your attunement to God.

Again, no one has made that claim. We go to church for fellowship with our fellow believers, for communal worship of our God and to learn from His holy word. In my church, we use the building to host monthly free community dinners, concerts and the like - things that require a building of some sort. The building is not the church, it is just a tool used by church to do the work of God.

[Dexter]

No one made such a claim, so I'm not sure why you're asking.No, but our pastors are there to teach us and help us better understand Scripture. Not sure how you define "being a good Christian," so it's hard to respond to that question. Simply praying at home doesn't make one a Christian. At the same time, as the late Keith Green used to say, going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger. It depends on your relationship with God. Again, no one has made that claim. We go to church for fellowship with our fellow believers, for communal worship of our God and to learn from His holy word. In my church, we use the building to host monthly free community dinners, concerts and the like - things that require a building of some sort. The building is not the church, it is just a tool used by church to do the work of God.

Nobody said some of those things in this thread, but I've seen a lot of Christians imply that going to church is a mandatory part of your service to God, and that Christians that don't are not doing it right. By good Christian I just meant a believer that does their best to follow the teachings of Christ in their everyday lives. Is the person who does this without church a less legitimate Christian? It doesn't make sense to me that the church itself is such an important part of following the teachings of Jesus.

[jmyrlefuller]

So a bunch of Christians could see each other and celebrate God in a field or in one of their homes and it would be just as good as doing it in a church?

That is how the Amish do it, and it's a perfectly legitimate way of worship. Most others do it in church buildings, mainly as a way to build something separate, a refuge from the rest of the world, if you will.

[mountaineer]

During worship at Presbyterian mission agency board meeting in Louisville celebrating Native American Day, the Lord's Prayer as offered prior to the celebration of Lord's Supper:

O, Great Spirit, creator of the universe, you are our shepherd chief in the most high place. Whose hoome is everywhere, even beyond the stars and the moon. Whatever you want done, let it, also be done everywhere. Give us your gift of bread day by day. Forgive us our wrongs as we forgive those who wrong us. Take us away from wrong doings. Free us from all evil. For everything belongs to you. Let your power and glory shine forever. Amen.

This was posted on the Presbyterian Layman's Facebook page, where it was noted that this is not "the Lord's prayer" as the actual Lord, Jesus Christ, taught it.

For what it's worth, today I notified my PCUSA church that I resigned all offices, committees and activities, effective immediately.

[EC]

For what it's worth - not much - I'm proud of you.

[jmyrlefuller]

During worship at Presbyterian mission agency board meeting in Louisville celebrating Native American Day, the Lord's Prayer as offered prior to the celebration of Lord's Supper:
This was posted on the Presbyterian Layman's Facebook page, where it was noted that this is not "the Lord's prayer" as the actual Lord, Jesus Christ, taught it.

For what it's worth, today I notified my PCUSA church that I resigned all offices, committees and activities, effective immediately.

I'm sorry you had to do it, but at the same time glad that you have taken a stand in God's name. I hope you find another church that adheres more closely to the Gospel.

(I do find it interesting that although the second half of the supposed prayer adheres fairly closely as a paraphrase, and I guess considering we're not reading it in the original Greek or Aramaic that there's a certain amount of liberty that can be taken in that regard, the prayer goes out of its way to avoid hallowing the Lord's name. It is as if they are asking the right things, but to the wrong God. They'll be sorry they ever did that.)

[mountaineer]

Thanks,  EC and JMyrle. I appreciate your comments.

[mountaineer]

Warren Wilson Presbyterian to host interfaith forum
Dale Neal, January 14, 2016
Citizen-Times newspaper, Asheville

SWANNANOA -  Two local congregations hope to start bridging the gaps of misunderstanding between Christian and Muslim believers.

The Rev. Heath Rada, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA), and Imam Mohamed Taha of the Asheville Islamic Center will host a public forum at 2 p.m. Sunday at the Warren Wilson Presbyterian Church.

The forum is in response to an invitation from the White House, issued to denominational-level faith leaders, to engage their congregations in a nationwide effort to bridge the growing racial and religious gap that continues to divide this country.

“The president is calling on the faith communities of the United States to stand up for justice, human rights and the basic religious principles of our nation,” Rada explained.  “Such work is one of the defining characteristics of the Presbyterian Church.”

“We will gather as a sign of our shared commitment to building bridges of peace and understanding between Islam and Christianity,” Rada said.

“This is a wonderful opportunity to build amicable relationships with our Muslim neighbors.  And we are glad to host this event on the weekend we celebrate the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.,” said the Rev. Dr. Steve Runholt, pastor of the Warren Wilson Church.

“As Dr. King reminded us, Jesus crossed any number of religious and theological boundaries in his day in the service of love,” Runholt said.  “In fact he cites a Samaritan — perhaps the contemporary equivalent of a Syrian — as a paradigm example of what God’s love looks like.  In hosting this event, we’re simply trying to follow that example.”

[musiclady]

Warren Wilson Presbyterian to host interfaith forum
Dale Neal, January 14, 2016
Citizen-Times newspaper, Asheville