Author Topic: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA  (Read 8671 times)

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Offline mountaineer

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THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« on: March 12, 2014, 03:13:11 PM »
I am an elder in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and really, really want to get my congregation out of this apostate denomination - which is losing dozens of churches each year, for good reason. Here's just one example of what we're dealing with, from the PCUSA website:
Quote
Notes about people
March 11, 2014
Presbyterian News Service
Jerry L. Van Marter



The Rev. Gerald S. (Jerry) Wise, a pastor, social activist and community organizer in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) for more than 50 years, died Feb. 18 in Cape Coral, Fla.

Wise, who studied under seminal community organizer Saul Alinsky in Chicago, was among the founding members in 1960 of the Alinsky-organized Temporary Woodlawn Organization (TWO), which began as a “militant protest community organization” formed to fight the University of Chicago in its plan to convert a huge swath of Woodlawn into a green buffer separating the dormitories and the homes of professors and students from the rough, mostly black neighborhood adjacent to the university. TWO organized thousands of Woodlawn residents, who would have been displaced by the plan, which was eventually scrapped.

Later in the 1960s, Wise did gang ministry at First Presbyterian Church in Chicago with the legendary Rev. John R. Fry, who wrote the best-selling Locked-out Americans based on that experience. First Presbyterian became the headquarters of the Blackstone Rangers, rival gang of the Eastside Disciples. Wise and Fry eventually helped broker disarmament agreements that for a time greatly reduced gang violence in Chicago.

“I met Jerry when I served Dayton Avenue Presbyterian Church in St. Paul, Minn.,” noted the Rev. Phil Tom,, the PC(USA)’s former coordinator of urban ministry who now serves in the U.S. Department of Labor in Washington, D.C.  “He had also served at Dayton Avenue and left there to serve South Central Ministry, an urban ministry in South Central Minneapolis. Jerry was passionate about urban ministry, a good organizer and a great storyteller!  He will be missed.”

In 1987, Wise returned to Chicago and First Presbyterian Church, where he served from 1987 until 2008. During his tenure, the church was instrumental in operating the oldest Head Start program in Chicago, as well as one of the largest food distribution centers and hot meals programs on the South Side of Chicago. Wise also founded Front Door Ministry, part of the Partners for Hope program ― a 1998 collaboration between the Illinois Department of Human Services' Division of Community Operations and faith-based communities to develop services for families moving from welfare to work.

Wise served on the board of directors of the Presbyterian Health, Education and Welfare Assocation from 1977-1987 and served as PHEWA’s president from 1981-1984.

Jerry was an incredible minister; especially in the world of urban ministry. He helped train hundreds of urban ministers in his years in Chicago as pastor at First Presbyterian ,” said the Rev. Mark Wendorf, a longtime activist in PC(USA) social welfare ministries and former professor of urban ministry at McCormick Theological Seminary.

“He was a field education placement every year I was teaching at McCormick,” Wendorf added. “He was always available, even at a moment’s notice, to welcome one of my classes. He was always willing to charm the students with good knowledge and great stories. Few things in ministry were better than to sit around with Jerry and swap urban ministry stories; along with a stiff drink.”

Wendorf said that “Jerry always held my feet to the fire and reminded me constantly to teach skills and remember the poor and oppressed. I will be forever grateful for this wisdom.”

The PC(USA) will miss Jerry Wise because, Wendorf said, “He was always a standard bearer for justice and constantly a friend of the forgotten and homeless.” 
Wow, how incredibly praiseworthy.  **nononono*

Offline happyg

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2014, 01:44:36 PM »
I missed this one. Your Church isn't the only one with activist pastors who are more communist than religious. Keep pushing.

Offline musiclady

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2014, 02:02:49 PM »
Many former PCUSA churches (like ours) are now part of the EPC (Evangelical Presbyterian Church).

It affirms the supremacy of Scripture over 'cultural concerns,' the divinity of Christ, His death and Resurrection, and remains true to historical Presbyterian doctrine, while seeking to be a "Matthew 28 church"....reaching the lost with the love of Christ.

Soon there will be no Christians left in the PCUSA.  It will merely be an arm of the radical Democrat party.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2014, 03:43:32 PM »
musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess.  **nononono*

Online EC

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2014, 03:50:44 PM »
musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess.  **nononono*

My friend. No. You do not need a pastor to lead you and the congregation. You need someone to stand up and say enough to the BS. What, you think you are Catholic or something?  :laugh:

Every advance in the history of civilization has been down to someone's laziness. Respect that.

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Offline truth_seeker

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2014, 04:03:51 PM »
musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess.  **nononono*

Why would you attend a church which goes against what you believe?

Why don't you and likeminded congregants break away? Here is a major Anglican situation in our area:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._James_Anglican_Church_(Newport_Beach)

The OC area is pretty well populated with Protestant religious institutions, including Chrystal Cathedral (before failure), Original Calvery Chapel in Costa Mesa (the tent by the freeway of the 70s), TBN, Saddleback, Benny Hinn's seaside multi-million home, etc. Harvest crusade is next door in Riverside County.


Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2014, 04:09:06 PM »
Our church - our small congregation, that is -  doesn't go against my beliefs. The denomination does. We want to preserve our little church because of what it's meant to our little town. We want to get back on track.

EC, you have no idea how ridiculously bureaucratic the PCUSA is. It may as well be the federal government. One "wrong" move, and they'll threaten to take our church building. It may come to that.

Offline musiclady

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2014, 04:12:10 PM »
musiclady, I want very much for our church to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC! The problem is that we currently have a liberal interim pastor and haven't even begun the pastoral search process. We are sheep without a true shepherd, in other words. We need to find a pastor who is willing to lead us out of the PCUSA. It's a mess.  **nononono*

Just as a word of encouragement.  We were without a pastor when we left the PCUSA.  (We had no interim, however, just pulpit fillers).  It was Session who investigated the options (they really did their homework!), and settled on the EPC to seek to join.  It took a while before we were full members, and it did happen after we found a pastor, but it's the best thing that has ever happened to our congregation.

We did have a lawyer from the EPC to protect our property rights (our church preceded the PCUSA, so we were able to keep the building legally), but it was worth everything to get out of that denomination.

Do you have some Elders with backbones?  I'm not sure how much authority an Interim Pastor has, according to the Book of Order, but it may be that your Session can overrule him/her.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Online EC

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2014, 04:17:08 PM »
Our church - our small congregation, that is -  doesn't go against my beliefs. The denomination does. We want to preserve our little church because of what it's meant to our little town. We want to get back on track.

EC, you have no idea how ridiculously bureaucratic the PCUSA is. It may as well be the federal government. One "wrong" move, and they'll threaten to take our church building. It may come to that.

Hey- I am Catholic. Bureaucracy is in the blood. It gets depressing.

It's only a building though. The church is in your heart, not in bricks and mortar. God is in churches, in rooms behind pool halls, in tents and trenches. Depends how many are willing to go all in, I guess.
Every advance in the history of civilization has been down to someone's laziness. Respect that.

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Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2014, 04:21:01 PM »
Wow, musiclady, I may be in touch with you. We just need someone to help us negotiate the minefield. We have some money in an investment account and you can bet the presbytery would like to get its hands on it.

As noted, I'm an elder (with backbone, I hope!) and I know most,  if not all, of the rest of the session would support our exodus out of darkness.

Offline musiclady

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2014, 04:27:49 PM »
Wow, musiclady, I may be in touch with you. We just need someone to help us negotiate the minefield. We have some money in an investment account and you can bet the presbytery would like to get its hands on it.

As noted, I'm an elder (with backbone, I hope!) and I know most,  if not all, of the rest of the session would support our exodus out of darkness.

Please do get in touch with me!  Neither my husband nor I were Ruling Elders when it happened, but he's on Session now, and I'm sure we can get material to you, or give you some contact info to help you get started.

You DEFINITELY have backbone!   :patriot:
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline Oceander

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2014, 08:08:08 PM »
Hey- I am Catholic. Bureaucracy is in the blood. It gets depressing.

It's only a building though. The church is in your heart, not in bricks and mortar. God is in churches, in rooms behind pool halls, in tents and trenches. Depends how many are willing to go all in, I guess.


If the Bible is anything to go by, I'd think God spent more time in the pool halls, tents and trenches looking for lost souls.

Offline olde north church

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2014, 07:40:44 AM »
Hey- I am Catholic. Bureaucracy is in the blood. It gets depressing.

It's only a building though. The church is in your heart, not in bricks and mortar. God is in churches, in rooms behind pool halls, in tents and trenches. Depends how many are willing to go all in, I guess.

That is true.  What were the Romans good at?  Administration.  Even though I prefer "papists".   :tongue2:
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2014, 07:52:54 AM »
That is true.  What were the Romans good at?  Administration.  Even though I prefer "papists".   :tongue2:

You heretics and your labels ....  :tongue2:
Every advance in the history of civilization has been down to someone's laziness. Respect that.

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Offline SouthTexas

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2014, 05:28:20 PM »
I am an elder in the Presbyterian Church (USA) and really, really want to get my congregation out of this apostate denomination - which is losing dozens of churches each year, for good reason. Here's just one example of what we're dealing with, from the PCUSA website:Wow, how incredibly praiseworthy.  **nononono*

I gave up on the Presbyterian Church many years ago.

Offline Lipstick on a Hillary

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 05:38:13 PM »
Just as a word of encouragement.  We were without a pastor when we left the PCUSA.  (We had no interim, however, just pulpit fillers).  It was Session who investigated the options (they really did their homework!), and settled on the EPC to seek to join.  It took a while before we were full members, and it did happen after we found a pastor, but it's the best thing that has ever happened to our congregation.

We did have a lawyer from the EPC to protect our property rights (our church preceded the PCUSA, so we were able to keep the building legally), but it was worth everything to get out of that denomination.

Do you have some Elders with backbones?  I'm not sure how much authority an Interim Pastor has, according to the Book of Order, but it may be that your Session can overrule him/her.

Wow, now THAT is an accomplishment!  I too am an elder (not ruling at the moment) and would be nothing short of amazed to see something like that come out of our Session. 

 mountaineer--please keep us posted on your church's progress. 

Offline musiclady

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2014, 05:46:36 PM »
Wow, now THAT is an accomplishment!  I too am an elder (not ruling at the moment) and would be nothing short of amazed to see something like that come out of our Session. 

 mountaineer--please keep us posted on your church's progress.

It was like coming 'home,' Lipstick.

As a Bible believing, conservative Evangelical church, we were like a fish out of water for decades in the PCUSA. I was actually raised a Baptist (Swedish Baptist, specifically) and my husband and I became Presbyterians in our forties, but the local church we joined was doctrinally very close to our upbringing.  It was only the nasty, leftist denomination that delayed our joining, but we did so eventually.

When we freed ourselves from the very powerful (and I might say, demonic) grip of the PCUSA and joined with the EPC, it was like, as I said, being home............where we belonged.  Solid theology, solid belief in the authority of Scripture, majoring on the major and letting minor differences be settled in local congregations....... all around good stuff!  ^-^
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2014, 09:50:14 PM »
If I ever can get all the other stuff in my life organized, musiclady, I may talk to you about driving up to chat with your session or at least the clerk of session during your transition - also could discuss via email. Only one church in our presbytery has left the PCUSA so far (also for the EPC) and I also need to get some advice from them. Maybe after Easter. Will let you know.

Offline musiclady

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2014, 10:30:36 PM »
If I ever can get all the other stuff in my life organized, musiclady, I may talk to you about driving up to chat with your session or at least the clerk of session during your transition - also could discuss via email. Only one church in our presbytery has left the PCUSA so far (also for the EPC) and I also need to get some advice from them. Maybe after Easter. Will let you know.

Just let me know what you need and I'll try to do whatever I can.   

You know where I live.   :laugh:

(In the meantime, you might check out The Layman online.  It's a good resource regarding getting out of the PCUSA).
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2014, 02:43:33 PM »
The latest from the lefties at PCUSA:
Quote
Presbyterian Church (USA) wants to raise your taxes, though it pays none

The Presbyterian Church (USA), which pays no Federal Income taxes or property taxes as a non-profit religious organization, wants to see your taxes raised.

Produced by the denomination’s Advisory Committee on Social Witness Policy and backed by the Presbyterian Mission Agency, the tax reform proposal entitled “Tax Justice: A Christian Response to a New Gilded Age” would make the U.S. tax system:

•          “more progressive, taxing those with greater wealth at higher proportions of their income, wealth, and inheritance;

•          “more transparent, which includes both simplicity and accountability for all tax preferences and tax expenditures;

•          “more solidarity-focused, which means reducing the use of tax expenditures, shelters and havens, and supporting more adequate international standards to reduce tax competition within and among nations;

•          “more sustainable for current and future generations, which means avoiding unproductive financial and ecological indebtedness; and

•          “more adequate, effectively addressing broader objectives of economic and social health than efficiency alone, such as meaningful employment, improved family life, and restored public trust. The tax system must be characterized by both efficiency in tax collection and revenue sufficient for the common good.”

The recommendation section of the Presbyterian proposal threatens to bite off the very hand that feeds it as it seeks the elimination of all deductions for charitable contributions. “Charitable contributions are only deductible by the approximately 25 percent of taxpayers who itemize deductions. Although tax-exempt charitable organizations (including religious bodies) play a critical role in our country, the nonprogressive means by which most tax-exempt organizations are financed means that nonprofits have a great responsibility to provide social benefit, broadly conceived, and to prevent leaders and managers from receiving undue personal gain.”

The recommendations target high-income Americans which are also the people who traditionally populate Presbyterian pews. The denomination’s proposed tax overhaul includes other tax hikes for its own members:

•          “The mortgage interest deduction as currently constructed privileges those who borrow the most; it should be limited to one residence and capped at a level that has a meaningful relationship to average home costs (i.e. that reflects reasonable housing needs rather than luxury market subsidies);

•          “Rules governing tax exempt ‘social welfare organizations’ (501(c)(4)s) should exclude or strictly limit the eligibility of donations for partisan political purposes, parties and candidates, and the individual and corporate donors to or through such organizations should be made public due to their influence on the political process.

•          “The exclusion of capital gains on home sales privileges high-value property owners who can make maximum use of exclusion.

•          “The exclusion of certain foreign-earned income (up to $95,100 in 2012) and housing benefits privileges income earned out of the country and encourages the movement of United States citizens to foreign jurisdictions.

•          “The capping of property taxes for senior citizens privileges many elders while burdening younger citizens of similar income. This tax expenditure does not appear to adhere to the principle of progressivity; means testing is one solution to this, as is raising the cap, depending on jurisdiction.

•          “Work to cap deductions for state tax, and municipal bond interest exemptions, for very high net worth households.”

The PCUSA will vote on the proposal at the meeting of the denomination’s General Assembly, June 14-21 in Detroit.
Presbyterian Layman (a nonPCUSA souorce)

Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2014, 12:43:49 PM »
Presbyterian Church USA Teams Up With American Islamists
The Church is an official interfaith partner with U.S. Muslim Brotherhood entities and supporters of Sharia for America.
By Ryan Mauro
Sun, October 6, 2013
Quote
A writer giving soft treatment to Islamists wouldn’t be a new development, but Ben Daniel isn’t just any writer. He’s the pastor of a church and his book was published by the Presbyterian Church USA. This church of 1.8 million has become an ally of Islamists.

Pastor Ben Daniel leads Foothill Presbyterian Church of San Jose and his book, The Search for Truth About Islam: A Christian Pastor Separates Fact from Fiction, was released on March 25 by the official publisher of the Presbyterian Church USA.

His book “explores what he calls ‘the American cult of fear,’ particularly as it relates to the rise of Islamophobia in the United States.”

Islamists have used the term “Islamophobia” to gain political influence and bash opponents – including ant-Islamists Muslims -- long before the 9/11 attacks. Now, even Muslims are speaking out against the abuse of the term.

At an August 22 speaking engagement at Sunnyvale Presbyterian Church, which was attended by almost 150 people, Pastor Daniel said that the CIA estimates there are less than 20,000 terrorists in the entire world.

That’s incorrect, but many Christians in the audience won’t know that. The UN says Al-Shabaab in Somalia alone has 5,000 members. Jabhat al-Nusra in Syria has around 7,000 members. There are over 50 groups designated as Foreign Terrorist Organizations by the U.S. State Department, most of which are Islamic.

Pastor Daniel’s willful blindness to the greater Islamist threat is apparent in his book when he upholds Imam Zaid Shakir as an admirable moderate. He says that Shakir’s Zaytuna College in California is “filling an important niche in American higher education.” There are plenty of reasons to be concerned about the education there – including one from earlier this year, when Shakir said that Sharia-based governance is superior to the U.S. Constitution.

Specifically, Shakir said that constitution-based citizenship is “a lofty ideal but after 200, 300 years of experimentation, we find that inequality is greater than it has ever been in the history of humanity.” Instead, governance based on Islamic law is what should be pursued, he asserted.

“Secularism says we keep religion out. Why? Because if we have religion and religion is the basis of membership in the community, we can’t have perfect equality. We can’t have perfect equality. If Islam is the basis, the kafir won’t be equal with the Muslim. The Christian or the Jew will be a dhimmi. They won’t be equal with the Muslim,” he preached.

In 2006, Shakir told the New York Times “he still hoped that one day the United States would be a Muslim country ruled by Islamic law.”   ....


The Presbyterian Church USA is an official interfaith partner of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), a U.S. Muslim Brotherhood entity and unindicted co-conspirator in the largest terrorism financing trial in American history.

The two are also both members of the Shoulder-to-Shoulder Campaign. ISNA is so proud of the interfaith coalition that it bragged about it during a meeting with Islamist Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan this year.

The Presbyterian Church also is part of the Religions for Peace USA coalition that also has a heavy Islamist component including ISNA. The Church has a representative on its Executive Council and Council of Presidents.

In July 2012, the Presbyterian Church Office of Public Witness blasted Rep. Michele Bachmann and four other members of Congress as essentially being bigoted “Joseph McCarthys.” ...
Rest of article
« Last Edit: April 28, 2014, 12:44:22 PM by mountaineer »

Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2014, 12:51:31 PM »
After Pressure from BDS leaders, GA Middle East Committee Moderator Is Removed
Presbyterians for Middle East Peace


The Presbyterian Church, USA has always been known for its strenuous debates of controversial issues. It has never been known for ideological purges. That changed a few weeks ago.

On April 1, 2014, after a thorough vetting of his abilities to be moderator of the GA committee on Middle East Issues, GA Moderator Neal Presa announced that Rev. Al Butzer, the widely respected senior pastor of First Presbyterian Church, Virginia Beach, VA, was appointed as the committee’s moderator. The appointment was hailed by centrists in the church who seek a more reasonable debate of the issues. Throughout his long career, Rev. Butzer has been found standing on the center ground in the church’s controversies, searching for consensus viewpoints between the extremes. He is also known for his ability to moderate a meeting in a fair and ethical manner, making sure that all voices are heard and all sides of a debate are treated equally.

However, advocates of the Israel-targeted Boycott, Divest, and Sanction (BDS) movement did not share the widespread approval of Rev. Butzer’s appointment. Instead, they questioned Rev. Butzer’s personal integrity by saying that he was incapable of leading a fair hearing on Middle East issues and demanded that he be replaced as moderator of the committee.  Less than a week after his nomination, Rev. Butzer was forced to step aside when the GA’s Moderator and Stated Clerk succumbed to the lobbying from the BDS proponents.

During the week of April 1-6, BDS leaders told Stated Clerk Gradye Parsons and General Assembly Moderator Neal Presa that Rev. Butzer should be disqualified because he and Jewish clergy led two trips to Israel with congregants from Christian and Jewish congregations in Virginia. The trips were not political. They had the goal of helping participants discuss the places where Judaism and Christianity are similar and where they are different. As is not unusual in trips in which clergy act as leaders, none of the three clergy paid their own expenses. Clergy expenses were paid by the Jewish Federation of Richmond, VA.

Friends of Rev. Butzer are dismayed that the BDS movement’s unfair criticism of his ability to moderate the Committee on Middle East Issues failed to mention that he also took two subsidized trips to the Middle East in which most of his time was spent talking with Palestinian leaders, including Archbishop Elias Chacour, and visited Palestinian refugee camps. His friends were also in disbelief that Rev. Butzer was attacked by the BDS camp for attending a Virginia interfaith Passover Seder in which not only Jews but Muslims were present.

To leaders of the PCUSA’s divestment movement, it is irrelevant that Rev. Butzer:

* has visited and listened to all sides in the Middle East, including Palestinian-led trips to refugee camps in the West Bank;

* has established a reputation for fairness on controversial issues and polity expertise that spans his career in Chicago Presbytery, National Capital Presbytery and the Presbytery of Eastern Virginia;

* was nominated to be a committee moderator by numerous Presbytery executives who have worked with him over the years;

* stands in the center of the church on issues, not in alliance with interest groups lobbying for a particular outcome on issues.

The only thing that matters to our denomination’s BDS leadership is that Rev. Butzer traveled to Israel with a group of Christians and Jews and attended an interfaith Passover Seder service in his hometown. Peacemaking apparently does not include traveling with Jews, visiting Palestinians such as Archbishop Chacour or breaking bread with interfaith partners in one’s own hometown.

It is puzzling that neither the Stated Clerk nor the Moderator of the General Assembly reached out to anyone who nominated Rev. Butzer or had experience with him as a leader in a Presbytery or Synod to hear if there was another side to the distorted image of Rev. Butzer that was spread by the BDS leaders. His colleagues in ministry are stunned that they were not given a chance to explain just how preposterous the charges against Rev. Butzer’s integrity and professionalism are.

Thanks to the actions of the BDS leaders, we now have some new litmus tests for being a moderator of committees at General Assemblies. They are:

* Clergy should not lead trips to the Middle East in which they travel with Jews from their own communities;

* Clergy should not accept subsidies for leading trips with their congregations; and

* Clergy should avoid interfaith celebrations such as shared Seder services.

Our denomination’s BDS leadership may feel as though it was a great victory to force the General Assembly’s Moderator to change his mind about the nomination of a widely respected centrist in the church. In fact, it was a defeat for the church we love. The church always loses when honorable servants are subjected to ideological attacks intended to smear their reputations. Will the application of ideological litmus tests be applied to other moderators of General Assembly committees who will be dealing with controversial issues? We pray not. 

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2014, 01:39:43 PM »
Good Lord.

The sooner you and your fellow congregation members get out of there, the better.

How is it going?

Was thinking - if you lose the church building, you could always ask your local Catholic Bishop for space. His Holiness is all about outreach and interfaith assistance, as indeed Pope Benedict was. In a time when more and more are turning from God, every believer is precious! It may mean shifting service times, but at least you'll still have a place to worship.
Every advance in the history of civilization has been down to someone's laziness. Respect that.

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Offline musiclady

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2014, 02:46:43 PM »
I think the year was 2011 when the PCUSA changed its basic structure, by edict, and in that two things happened.

1.  The authority of Scripture was replaced with the winds of popular culture.

2.   The autonomy of the individual congregation was removed and the general assembly given power to assert complete authority over congregations. (Not unlike what Obama has done to this country in asserting the absolute power of the federal government over the will of the people/states).

(It was at that point that our congregation pulled out and joined the EPC).

All these statements by the PCUSA are in keeping with the surge left they took when they changed structure.  They are a semi-religious wing of the Democrat party.  Period.

The real Presbyterians, true to its theology, Book of Order and philosophy are leaving in droves.

I anticipate that they will keep swerving farther left, away from Scriptural truth, since they can no longer be checked by moderate or conservative congregations.
Character still matters.  It always matters.

May 3, 2016 - the day the Republican party left ME.  I am now without a Party, and quite possibly without a country.  May God have mercy!

Offline mountaineer

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Re: THIS is why I'm fed up with the PCUSA
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2014, 03:00:44 PM »
Mr. M and I attended our presbytery meeting last week and just couldn't take it (thank goodness we could blame our bad backs for walking out after 2 hours and 15 minutes). All they cared about was how to maintain the bureaucracy. So what if our presbytery alone has lost 2/3 of its membership over the past few decades? They don't even stop to wonder why.


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