Author Topic: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan  (Read 755 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mystery-ak

  • Owner
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 257,362
Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« on: March 05, 2014, 09:44:04 AM »

Support the USO

Offline Oceander

  • Technical
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 47,384
  • Chief Dork
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2014, 11:25:16 PM »
Mr. Buchanan misperceives a number of things.  First off, particularly during the Cold War, a direct military confrontation with the Soviet Union in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, or Poland could have easily led to a nuclear exchange; I trust that Eisenhower and Kennedy realized that, I am quite sure that Reagan realized that.  Nonetheless, the last, Reagan, is most instructive because Solidarnosc still ended up winning, even without a direct US military intervention, which suggests that either the US wasn't needed at all (unlikely) or that the US was exerting enough pressure elsewhere to push things over the edge (more likely).

Ukraine and Crimea are not direct vital US interests - i.e., they don't have any sort of an existential dimension for the US (at this point) - so there is little to be gained and much to be lost if the US simply hops in with boots-on-the-ground and guns blazing.  Putin cannot afford to lose face with the Russian public, especially as against the US, and so Russia would almost certainly hit back hard - and most likely would hit back at the rest of Europe in retaliation.

That being said, there are US interests in Ukraine, and certainly in the ex-SSRs taken as a group; for one thing, an aggressive Russia eating up its neighbors without consequence does not bode well for peace in Europe in the short or middle term and if Europe falls into conflict again, the US will end up being hip-deep in it.  For another, it is in the US interest to have other countries moving toward being a Western democracy - the greater the number of them, the less the odds of there being another world-wide conflict - and right now Russia is threatening that interest.

The issue isn't whether there are US interests in Ukraine/Crimea or not - there definitely are - the issue is determining the appropriate level of response to the interests that are being threatened - proportionality is key - and figuring out what tool(s) will be most likely to get Russia out of Ukraine/Crimea if those tools are used.  In this case, military force is almost certainly not a useful tool; by contrast, very aggressive economic sanctions, and steps taken to threaten Russia's oil and gas exports - allowing the export of US natural gas to Europe would put a severe hurt in Russia's finances and help to stiffen the collective European spine - along with aggressive freezes on assets held by Russians offshore (i.e., outside of Russia) would be most useful.

Offline truth_seeker

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 19,420
  • Common Sense Results Oriented Conservative Veteran
    • The place where argument addicts can go
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2014, 12:44:30 AM »
How about we let Germany and their neighbors take the lead, decide what policy they prefer?

We should focus on our own energy self-sufficiency and fiscal measures, to balance our budget. It was after all, fiscal problems which broke up the USSR, not military actions.

If Crimea and eastern Ukraine desire to be aligned with Russia, so be it. Let's advocate for free elections.

Europe gets Russia's natural gas exports, and would not like us mucking that up for them.

And finally we should not lessen our military capabilities, so Obama can pass our more EBT cards. Keep the guns, but cut the butter.

No need to escalate it, beyond the current situation. Obama would like nothing better than a possible war, to distract from his miserable performance on all fronts; economic, international relations, etc.
"God must love the common man, he made so many of them.�  Abe Lincoln

Offline olde north church

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5,136
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 05:49:10 AM »
Better still, start supplying Ukrainian "Freedom Fighters" with weapons and funding and CIA training until the body bags of Russian soldiers start returning to Moscow and Red Army is forced to withdraw.  It worked so well in Afghanistan.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2014, 05:49:34 AM by olde north church »
Why?  Well, because I'm a bastard, that's why.

Offline Politics4us

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 506
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2014, 09:23:12 AM »
Pat has no expertise in foreign policy.

Offline Fishrrman

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 12,350
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2014, 10:18:23 PM »
From the article:
[[ And should Crimea vote to secede from Ukraine, upon what moral ground would we stand to deny them the right, when we bombed Serbia for 78 days to bring about the secession of Kosovo? ]]

Very good point by Mr. Buchanan.

Let's suppose the Crimeans (ethnic Russians) -do- try to secede from Ukraine (proper).

Is that necessarily bad in itself?
Isn't it the right of a people in opposition to a government (in this case the Crimeans who do not believe the Ukrainian government is representing them) to form a new government?

Didn't Thomas Jefferson say something about that 'way back in '76?
(as in -1776-)

And transpose such issues to right here in the USA, another country that has become fundamentally "divided" -- almost as much so as is the Ukraine.

As the blue states tilt towards socialism and a "new slavery", wouldn't it make sense for the red states to "secede" as well?
Are we not actually seeing some actual attempts (such as in Colorado, California and even New York) at breaking apart state entities and boundaries that no longer actually represent the beliefs and mores of those who are confined within?

If it's good enough for us to think about here, why isn't it good enough for the ethnic/Russian Crimeans to think about it?

Offline Oceander

  • Technical
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 47,384
  • Chief Dork
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2014, 10:56:10 PM »
From the article:
[[ And should Crimea vote to secede from Ukraine, upon what moral ground would we stand to deny them the right, when we bombed Serbia for 78 days to bring about the secession of Kosovo? ]]

Very good point by Mr. Buchanan.

Let's suppose the Crimeans (ethnic Russians) -do- try to secede from Ukraine (proper).

Is that necessarily bad in itself?
Isn't it the right of a people in opposition to a government (in this case the Crimeans who do not believe the Ukrainian government is representing them) to form a new government?

Didn't Thomas Jefferson say something about that 'way back in '76?
(as in -1776-)

And transpose such issues to right here in the USA, another country that has become fundamentally "divided" -- almost as much so as is the Ukraine.

As the blue states tilt towards socialism and a "new slavery", wouldn't it make sense for the red states to "secede" as well?
Are we not actually seeing some actual attempts (such as in Colorado, California and even New York) at breaking apart state entities and boundaries that no longer actually represent the beliefs and mores of those who are confined within?

If it's good enough for us to think about here, why isn't it good enough for the ethnic/Russian Crimeans to think about it?

A necessary predicate to your argument is sadly missing here:  any referendum right now in Crimea on annexation to Russia would not be free or fair by any stretch of the imagination; when you have Russian soldiers in mufti running around shutting things down, any vote on secession - which will necessarily entail annexation by Russia - will almost by definition be coerced and not free or fair.

Offline Oceander

  • Technical
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 47,384
  • Chief Dork
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2014, 10:58:10 PM »
How about we let Germany and their neighbors take the lead, decide what policy they prefer?

We should focus on our own energy self-sufficiency and fiscal measures, to balance our budget. It was after all, fiscal problems which broke up the USSR, not military actions.

If Crimea and eastern Ukraine desire to be aligned with Russia, so be it. Let's advocate for free elections.

Europe gets Russia's natural gas exports, and would not like us mucking that up for them.

And finally we should not lessen our military capabilities, so Obama can pass our more EBT cards. Keep the guns, but cut the butter.

No need to escalate it, beyond the current situation. Obama would like nothing better than a possible war, to distract from his miserable performance on all fronts; economic, international relations, etc.

Because we don't really want to leave it to the Germans to decide if we're going to end up getting sucked into a war in Europe if Russia next goes after a NATO member and that NATO member calls on the other members to defend it.  The odds that the US would turn its back on its NATO obligations because Russia went after Latvia or Lithuania are so small one would have a better chance of winning both the megamillions and the powerball on the same night.

Offline Politics4us

  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 506
Re: Tune out the War Party! By: Patrick J. Buchanan
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2014, 11:28:54 AM »
Wasn't out involvement in Vietnam about a domino effect?


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf